• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Rail Gun for Space weapon?

I would like to see what infojunky's rules would look like. While close/medium/long aren't defined, we could apply what some suggested earlier, 50,000 km for long, 25,000 km for medium and maybe 10.000 km for short? Thoughts?

The rules I am using are pretty simple, It basically a mash up of Book 2 and Mayday. With the turn and ground scale being 100 seconds and 1,000 km. Movement is Mayday as is Direct fire ranges. Damage and the rest is Book 2.

The biggest thing is my choice of ground scale. Which was chosen for a couple of reasons, one to get all that wonderful orbital terrain on the board. The other trying to find a central reference point, I chose the Geosynchronous orbit point where the High Port generally resides.
 
My FF&S is buried in a storage locker. If anyone has their's more handy, could they enlighten the thread as to how losing grav focusing shortens the range?

Laser range is tied to mirror size. Mirrors at "Traveller Combat Distances" are, basically, not very tenable. The get very large (10's to 100's of meters), very quickly. So, grav focusing was introduced as a mechanism to focus the beams instead of mirrors.
 
The math is:

.61 * D * L / S = M

D = distance in meters
L = wavelength of the laser
S = the spot size at distance D
M = mirror size in meters.

Ultraviolet wavelength is roughly 300 nanometers.

We'll call distance 100K km

Spot size, 1 cm

So

.61 * 100,000,000m * 0.0000003m / 0.01m = 1830m

Therefore, an Ultraviolet laser that can focus at 100km will have a mirror that's 1830 meters in RADIUS, 3660m total diameter.

Obviously, that's big. Really big. Doesn't really fit the fantasy of (cue Muppet Show) "LAAZZEERRSSS INNNN SPPAAAACCEEEE".

A 10m diameter mirror would have a range of 273km.

Simply divide the distance you want to focus at, in meters, by 27333, and you'll get the mirror size in meters. (So, a 1M mirror has a range of 27.3km, or 27,733 meters).
 
Traveller starship lasers are magitech.

If the were reduced in range then railguns would have their place, and may even be a weapon system of choice. ...
I would like to see what infojunky's rules would look like. While close/medium/long aren't defined, we could apply what some suggested earlier, 50,000 km for long, 25,000 km for medium and maybe 10.000 km for short? Thoughts? ...

Lessee...

250 megajoules in a laser will potentially vaporize over 5000 cc of iron, but to do that it has to hit with some degree of concentration. If I grabbed Striker for info and say it has to penetrate to a 33 cm depth (Armor rating 0, or 40 per Striker), then I need to limit it to about 150 square centimeters, roughly a 7 cm radius beam.

Radial beam divergence = laser wavelength / (pi * radius of the beam at its narrowest point). Let's start at 5 cm and see if we can keep it under 7. If I have the math right, a 5 cm 10 nm laser, about at the border between UV and X-ray, 0.01 /(pi*50)=6.37*10-5 milliradian. So a 10 nm 5 cm radius laser diverges ... 6.36 cm over 1000 km? Did I get that right?

And, the narrower the beam, the more quickly it diverges. Seems like if we go all sciency, lasers below x-ray or gamma ray frequency are limited to point defense or visual range combat, and those railguns and missiles become the weapons of choice for space combat. Range is then a question of how fast they go and how fast their targets can accelerate, which should be something that can be calculated.
 
I think X-ray and gamma lasers tend not to maintain cohesiveness. It's been ten years since I did a report on the subject, but those wavelengths have their issues. Infrared seems to be preferred because, I'm guessing on my memory here, it doesn't scatter in the atmosphere, or not as much as higher frequency light (ergo the reason the sky is blue).

So, a "rail gun" or some other hypervelocity weapon seems to become more attractive.
 
The math is:

.61 * D * L / S = M

D = distance in meters
L = wavelength of the laser
S = the spot size at distance D
M = mirror size in meters.

Ultraviolet wavelength is roughly 300 nanometers.

We'll call distance 100K km

Spot size, 1 cm

So

.61 * 100,000,000m * 0.0000003m / 0.01m = 1830m

Therefore, an Ultraviolet laser that can focus at 100km will have a mirror that's 1830 meters in RADIUS, 3660m total diameter.

Obviously, that's big. Really big. Doesn't really fit the fantasy of (cue Muppet Show) "LAAZZEERRSSS INNNN SPPAAAACCEEEE".

A 10m diameter mirror would have a range of 273km.

Simply divide the distance you want to focus at, in meters, by 27333, and you'll get the mirror size in meters. (So, a 1M mirror has a range of 27.3km, or 27,733 meters).

Is this actual physics or that pulled from the FF&S book? It has been thirty plus years since I did the focal length equations for lasers for a physics lecture.
 
I think X-ray and gamma lasers tend not to maintain cohesiveness. It's been ten years since I did a report on the subject, but those wavelengths have their issues. Infrared seems to be preferred because, I'm guessing on my memory here, it doesn't scatter in the atmosphere, or not as much as higher frequency light (ergo the reason the sky is blue).

So, a "rail gun" or some other hypervelocity weapon seems to become more attractive.


So without the handwavium support for lasers, all combat ranges shorten (well except for missile launch ranges, missile intercept would be short) and we get more crispy crunchiness? Sounds reasonable to me.

It also lends support for having a few ROVs/autonomous drones for additional sensor and fire support.
 
So without the handwavium support for lasers, all combat ranges shorten (well except for missile launch ranges, missile intercept would be short) and we get more crispy crunchiness? Sounds reasonable to me.

It also lends support for having a few ROVs/autonomous drones for additional sensor and fire support.
Yup, once you remove the magitech from lasers ship combat ranges become much shorter.

You can still have all your nifty weapons as per Traveller; lasers, pulse lasers, plasma guns, fusion guns, particle accelerators, meson guns and missiles; and now you can add railguns to the mix.

RKV and AKV (remote kill vehicle and autonomous kill vehicle) and manned 'fighters' become a tactical necessity if you do not want to risk your expensive starship.
 
I don't want to hijack the thread, but fighters have been a sore point for me with this game.

Currently the game has the Rampart, which is essentially an F-104-ish manned interceptor, or more rather a "bullet with wings" (and a cockpit), but really pales in terms of its ability to do anything.

I bring this up because carriers in today's navy exist because aircraft can cover more territory faster and deliver a payload a lot better than a naval gun. It's why BBs are all but obsolete in modern naval warfare (though the rail gun may change that).

In space it becomes problematic because of magic tech. Since typically there isn't a whole lot interfereing with LOS, then you can see (or even guess based on visual date) where your opponent is and fire away. Ergo there's no real need for fighters, QED.

Either way I think rail guns are interesting. Most of my Traveller sessions had ACS combat ... I think once, maybe twice or three times I had players wander into a full scale battle, but it was more for flavor, and not really endemic to the game itself; i.e. "You've come out of jump, and see a line of Sylea class BBs taking out a fleet of Zho BCs... what do you do?!" And so it goes.
 
I don't want to hijack the thread, but fighters have been a sore point for me with this game.
They have their niche - the trick is to not think of them as aircraft but rather motor torpedo boats and their ilk.

Currently the game has the Rampart, which is essentially an F-104-ish manned interceptor, or more rather a "bullet with wings" (and a cockpit), but really pales in terms of its ability to do anything.
At TL15 a manned 'fighter' is not much use in the line of battle vs capital ships, but it does have uses - missile interceptor, scouting duties, screening duties.

I use 'fighters' as scouts and forward observers...

I bring this up because carriers in today's navy exist because aircraft can cover more territory faster and deliver a payload a lot better than a naval gun. It's why BBs are all but obsolete in modern naval warfare (though the rail gun may change that).
The manned plane became the delivery system for the high explosives that used to be fired by the big guns and miss a lot. A lot of bombers were needed to achieve kills on capital ships, and those bombers needed to be protected by escort fighters.

Today we do not need a piloted aircraft to deliver the explosives...

Traveller has not had an effective smallcraft delivered weapons system, nor does it have smallcraft that are ten to a hundred times faster than the ships they go hunting.

TL;DR - you can only apply the analogy of modern naval and air warfare so far to Traveller ship combat and far too many people get hung up on 'this is the way it worked in the pacific' or 'this is how a modern CNV battlegroup works'. Traveller ship combat games model combat in space in the Traveller universe.

In space it becomes problematic because of magic tech. Since typically there isn't a whole lot interfereing with LOS, then you can see (or even guess based on visual date) where your opponent is and fire away. Ergo there's no real need for fighters, QED.
Again it depends upon your view of what a 'fighter' in the space combat paradigm of TL7-15 Traveller is capable of. They are not aircraft. They do not dogfight (sorry Star Wars fans), they can not launch a torpedo that can kill a capital ship (although with the missiles special supplement and LBB2 combat a fighter or six armed with nukes will make a nasty mess of the capital ships possible in LBB2).

What they can do is extend the range of your sensor net, act as a forward controller for missiles and AKVs, and make a mess of civilian ships...

Either way I think rail guns are interesting. Most of my Traveller sessions had ACS combat ... I think once, maybe twice or three times I had players wander into a full scale battle, but it was more for flavor, and not really endemic to the game itself; i.e. "You've come out of jump, and see a line of Sylea class BBs taking out a fleet of Zho BCs... what do you do?!" And so it goes.
My favourite Traveller space combat game remains Star Cruiser for T2300. You had to get to within one hex range to use your weapons.

The movement and sensor rules make the ten/thirty minute turn 'sub-hunt' phase of combat interesting as you maneuver your assets into position.

Add a vector movement system and you can instantly convert this phase to a more normal Traveller game.

Once ships are in weapon lock range I switch to a one minute combat turn system; sometimes even down to a 15 second round during a rpg session I may have the players frantically describing what they are doing...
 
Either way I think rail guns are interesting. Most of my Traveller sessions had ACS combat ...

In RP play 90% of ship combat has been some form of ACQ combat. Often with the player trying for the classic Target Weapons and Drives engagement option to effect a get away.
 
The rules I am using are pretty simple, It basically a mash up of Book 2 and Mayday. With the turn and ground scale being 100 seconds and 1,000 km. Movement is Mayday as is Direct fire ranges. Damage and the rest is Book 2.

The biggest thing is my choice of ground scale. Which was chosen for a couple of reasons, one to get all that wonderful orbital terrain on the board. The other trying to find a central reference point, I chose the Geosynchronous orbit point where the High Port generally resides.

hex size should correlate to 10T^2... or 9.8T^2 if using a more realistic.
V=AT in m/s
D=0.5AT^2
The mayday dodge is to use hex=10T^2... 10x100^2=100,000 m/s per burn, or 100 km hexes.

330 sec gets close to your 1000 km; about 1067 km using 9.8m/s^s...
 
They have their niche - the trick is to not think of them as aircraft but rather motor torpedo boats and their ilk.

At TL15 a manned 'fighter' is not much use in the line of battle vs capital ships, but it does have uses - missile interceptor, scouting duties, screening duties.

I use 'fighters' as scouts and forward observers...


The manned plane became the delivery system for the high explosives that used to be fired by the big guns and miss a lot. A lot of bombers were needed to achieve kills on capital ships, and those bombers needed to be protected by escort fighters.

Today we do not need a piloted aircraft to deliver the explosives...

Traveller has not had an effective smallcraft delivered weapons system, nor does it have smallcraft that are ten to a hundred times faster than the ships they go hunting.

TL;DR - you can only apply the analogy of modern naval and air warfare so far to Traveller ship combat and far too many people get hung up on 'this is the way it worked in the pacific' or 'this is how a modern CNV battlegroup works'. Traveller ship combat games model combat in space in the Traveller universe.


Again it depends upon your view of what a 'fighter' in the space combat paradigm of TL7-15 Traveller is capable of. They are not aircraft. They do not dogfight (sorry Star Wars fans), they can not launch a torpedo that can kill a capital ship (although with the missiles special supplement and LBB2 combat a fighter or six armed with nukes will make a nasty mess of the capital ships possible in LBB2).

What they can do is extend the range of your sensor net, act as a forward controller for missiles and AKVs, and make a mess of civilian ships...


My favourite Traveller space combat game remains Star Cruiser for T2300. You had to get to within one hex range to use your weapons.

The movement and sensor rules make the ten/thirty minute turn 'sub-hunt' phase of combat interesting as you maneuver your assets into position.

Add a vector movement system and you can instantly convert this phase to a more normal Traveller game.

Once ships are in weapon lock range I switch to a one minute combat turn system; sometimes even down to a 15 second round during a rpg session I may have the players frantically describing what they are doing...

Well, the game has "space fighters" as flavor for people who want that X-wing/TIE Fighter mashup. It's a cinematic holdover from "original intent" Traveller, verse what Traveller's evolved into.

And I guess that's the dichotomy of the setting; i.e. it doesn't have rail guns (which it probably should), but has space fighters and extreme range lasers ... so there you go.

I don't know, the game is designed as is. I don't see a problem with adding any kind of EMG (electromagnetic gun), whether it's the rifle / M60ish weapon I proposed in the equipment thread, or a big-gun starship version. It's a tech that GDW missed out on for whatever reason, and I think is worth exploring.
 
Rail guns would fit in nicely in the TL7-11 range.

By TL12 the RF plasma A gun has replaced mass drivers as point defence in battlefield applications so it could be the plasma gun is a development from the mass driver/railgun concept (use electromagnetic acceleration to spit out plasma rather than solid metal).
Study of the tech progression in LBB4 throws up some interesting features:
Tech level 9: Heavy conventional artillery is gradually replaced by mass driver (MD) guns, large magnetic linear accelerators which, although requiring large amounts of power, are capable of long range, high muzzle velocities, and rapid rates of fire.
Starship versions would be a full TL lower IMHO so lets say the starship railgun is introduced at TL8.
TL12 and above the plasma and then fusion gun are so much more capable than the rail guns that the latter are not employed in front line warships, but may still find a niche in auxiliaries and civilian shipping.
Tech level 12: Both the plasma C gun and the heavier fusion X gun are introduced in the air defense and general direct fire role. The now highly mobile A gun completely supplants the VRF gauss gun in the point defense role.
 
Last edited:
hex size should correlate to 10T^2... or 9.8T^2 if using a more realistic.

Note, I am using the Standard Traveller assumption of 10 m/s^2

And the standard Book 2 and Mayday Vector model.


D=0.5AT^2

Remember in terms of Book 2 and Mayday this a optional rule.


The mayday dodge is to use hex=10T^2... 10x100^2=100,000 m/s per burn, or 100 km hexes.

330 sec gets close to your 1000 km; about 1067 km using 9.8m/s^s...

Your right My time scale is off.... by 2/3rds. but honestly 5 minutes vs 100 seconds I'll just round it to 5 minutes.... As round numbers are easier to deal with at the table.
 
You have to look at the prevailing rule-set to figure out if a specific weapon system is worthwhile, and under what conditions.

If we use the Mongoosian railgun spinal mount, it's cheaper, needs less energy and available earlier. Technological level thirteen allows it's ultimate expression.

If your naval staff has come to the expectation there will be one decisive battle early on, and that most of the line of battle will be badly knocked about, if not destroyed, using railguns at fairly close range becomes an attractive doctrine.
 
I think for big HG mainline units at TL 12 and above that slug it out with one another (Imp-Zho, Imp-Soli, Soli-Aslan, and so forth) a rail fun might be outclassed, but I think ACS might pack one. They might be a good cheap alternative to laser weaponry, with the only draw back being that they require ammo, but that the ammo is many times smaller than missiles, so you can pack more rail gun rounds than missiles.
 
Post Script; Traveller ACS (or even HG) starship combat doesn't use hexes, but vectors. Correct? Am I not remembering that correctly? It's been years.
 
Back
Top