Rank , Command and Ship Size

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The old CT LBB5, High Guard had more rank definitions:

O1 - Ensign (basic rank 1)
O2 - Sublieutenant (basic rank 1)
O3 - Lieutenant (basic rank 2)
O4 - Lieutenant Commander (basic rank 3)
O5 - Commander (basic rank 4)
O6 - Captain (basic rank 5)
O7 - Commodore (basic rank 6)
O8 - Fleet Admiral (basic rank 6)
O9 - Sector Admiral (basic rank 6)
O10- Grand Admiral (basic rank 6)

I'd say the required rank would be dependant on the number of crew commanded. An easy method would be use the crew number for the ship and add 1 to it for the minimum rank. So...

MTU is a small ship universe (LBB-2 ships) usinf HG chargen/rank structure. Therefore, I suggest
the following guidelines for a small ship universe (IMTU it's the Solar Triumvirate):
Ensign (O1) - Lowest rank for a pilot; may commad only a boat.
Sublieutenant (O2) - Boat pilot/CO, or XO of a Lieutenant (or Lt.Cmdr.) of a ship.
Lieutenant (O3) - Lowest rank to command a ship; usually commands ships up to 400 dtons.
Lieutenant Commander (O4) - Commands ships up to 1,000 dtons.
Commander (O5) - May command shipsup to 2,000 dtons.
Captain (O6) - Commands Capital ships (abouve 2,000 dtons) or leads a Flight of Fighters/Boats/non-capital ships.
Commodore (O7) - Usually the immidiate commander of a flagship (overseeing the individual ship's operations under the Admiral) or of a Squadron (4-8) of ships.
Admirals (O8-O10) - Usually command groups or fleets rather than individual ships.

Note that despite a lower rank, anybody commanding a ship is referred to as "Captain". Also, anyone in a Pilot position must be an officer.

Chief Engineers, Chief Gunners as well as Medics are Petty Officers on small (below 1,000 dtons) ships; Doctors, and Chiefs on ships abouve 1,000 dtons are almost always officers.

Military space stations are considered as ships; semi-civilian stations (think Babylon 5; it was originally commanded by Sinclair, who was a Commander) may be commanded by an officer one level below that which is required by a military ship. Fully civilian stations are commanded by Corporate/Merchant officials/officers.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Joseph,
Actually, the whole idea of ranks with two words in the title goes back to the idea that they are very similar ranks. In the US military (the Air Force, anyway, though I seem to remember the Army treating it the same way) if a Second Lieutenant salutes a First Lieutenant, the First Lieutenant has an obligation to (orally or physically) beat that butter bar within an inch of his life. Once he makes Captain, it's a little different.

Everybody at the level of General Officer is in a club, and only General Officers get certain billets, privileges, etc.

The Non-commissioned officers are similar, in that almost all NCOs in the Army, Air Force, and Marines have Sergeant in the name, as that is the proper title for an NCO. In the navy, they are Petty Officers. And, Chief Petty Officers are a special group and get treated that way.

 

[fredofmars]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Joseph,
Actually, the whole idea of ranks with two words in the title goes back to the idea that they are very similar ranks.
<snip>

On the other hand, having two different rank titles makes it clear that they are two _different_ ranks.

My issue is that some ranks with similar titles are lumped together in "ordinary" speech, and only separated in more formal speech. My proposal does away with the lumping-together problem entirely.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Check out The Grand Fleet in the elibrary.

 

[flykiller]

In a military organization like the Imperial Navy, what rank is required to be the captain of a ship? Presumably it varies witht the size of the ship. Any thoughts?

social standing will play a role as well. 10 to command anything, 12 to command a capital ship, 13+ for any kind of admiral.

 

[Timerover51]

In a military organization like the Imperial Navy, what rank is required to be the captain of a ship? Presumably it varies witht the size of the ship. Any thoughts?

The IJN Yamato, on her last sortie, was commanded by a Rear Admiral, to give some historical context. Given the size of some of the ships listed in Supplement 9: Fighting Ships, that may hold true for the Imperium as well. If you allow for the courtesy title of Commodore for a captain commanding a force of several ships, that would give you a bit more breathing space for ranks. You would also have to allow for junior officers serving onboard ship, so probably the lowest level of commander would be Lieutenant, and that might be pushing it. Is your chief engineer an officer or warrant officer or long-serving non-commissioned officer?

Also, looking at history, high social standing does not always equate to military competency. It is possible to argue for just the opposite.

 

[Enoki]

If rank follows something close to naval and air force positions today, I'd say a Commander would be eligible to command anything less than whatever is considered a "capital" ship. Tonnage wouldn't matter so much as the ship's function.
Thus you might have a Commander in command of say a 75,000 ton fleet tanker.
Captains would command major combatants.

I agree with timeover that the rank of Commodore would be more of a temporary / honorary one given to a Captain who is placed in charge of a small fleet of ships. For example, the senior military Captain of the escorts of a merchant convoy, whatever his actual rank, would be given the title of Commodore for the time he's in command of the convoy.

Admirals wouldn't command individual ships. They'd command battlegroups, fleets, and areas commands of the Imperial Navy.

Other positions aboard IN ships would be held by Commander or lower ranked officers. There might be two or more officers with the rank of Captain on larger vessels but only one would be the ship's "Captain." The others have the same rank but are not in charge of the whole ship. So, the executive officer on a large ship might be a Captain too but junior in time in rank to the Captain of the ship.

For small ships, ranks as low as Lieutenant would be eligible for command. On such a ship there might be just one or two other officers aboard as well.

As far as social status goes, I'd say senior officers would have to be 10 or 11 as a minimum. They wouldn't necessarily have to be nobles, any more than even an admiral would have to be. It would be likely that an admiral was a noble, but it isn't a job requirement per se.
That would give senior officers very high social standing but it doesn't require they be nobility unless the Imperium was putting social standing ahead of competence in promoting officers. If that's the case, then yes, as rank goes up social standing has to rise or already be high to get promoted into the next rank. The problem with that system would be many ships would have relatively mediocre officers aboard in some positions who were placed there by virtue of their social standing rather than their competence.

 

[flykiller]

It would be likely that an admiral was a noble, but it isn't a job requirement per se.

the imperium "rules the space between the stars." this means it rules the navy. an admiral in charge of his fleet effectively is the imperium. this won't be handed over to someone with a social standing of 7. in fact a competent admiral with an ss of 7 is not a benefit, but rather is a hazard, to a nobility system. and the imperium is a nobility system.

 

[McPerth]

See that in MgT CB (1^st Edition al teast), the benefit for reaching Navy Captain is SOC 10 or +1 SOC, whichever is higher, and to reach Aldmiral grade the benefit is SOC 12 or +1 SOC, whichever is higher.

So, true, those high Naval officers are all high SOC, because if they are not, they have it risen.

 

[flykiller]

those high Naval officers are all high SOC, because if they are not, they have it risen.

raising ss to fill a quota defeats the purpose of having ss at all. social standing is not a benefit.

 

[McPerth]

raising ss to fill a quota defeats the purpose of having ss at all. social standing is not a benefit.

I fully disagree here. increasing yoru social position is (both in traveller and real life) one of the goals of following any career (except illegal ones).

See that even in CT, ranks 5 and 6 in the Navy increased your SOC (by +1 each), and in the benefits table they could obtain a +2 SOC, so being quite likely to end up their careers with quite higher SOC than they started.

To reach Rank 5 in CT you needed at least 4 terms, that , with the added MO rolls for Rank, meant at least 7 MO rolls, of wich at leat 4 must be benefits. So you have about 50% possibilities of rolling a 6 (+2 SOC), that added to the automatic +1 SOC for teaching Rank 5 (Captain) means that you're quite likely to have increased you SOC by 3 if you reach Captain Grade in CT, and at least one more if you reach Aldmiral.

Reaching Navy Captain or Aldmiral Rank in any Navy, both in Traveelr and rela life, makes you a quite influent person, and, while you may not have any nobiliary title, you still raise your social status in all senses it might mean (contacts, being invited to High Social events, influence, etc...).

 

[Adam Dray]

raising ss to fill a quota defeats the purpose of having ss at all. social standing is not a benefit.

I don't interpret it as "congrats, you're an admiral; you get a raise in social status for that."

I interpret it as "congrats, you're an admiral, and now we think about your social status in a different way as a result."

The chargen rules handle it as a benefit, but a benefit can be direct or indirect.

 

[flykiller]

(contacts, being invited to High Social events, influence, etc...)

social standing is not popularity. it is perceived loyalty - in this case, to the imperium. before a man is promoted to admiral he must be perceived as loyal (have a high social standing). if he is not perceived as being loyal (has low social standing) he will not be promoted.

as for changing (notice the word here is not "raising") social standing, this would be quite an issue for discussion.

"congrats, you're an admiral, and now we think about your social status in a different way as a result."

a nobility system would not behave that way.

 

[McPerth]

social standing is not popularity. it is perceived loyalty - in this case, to the imperium. before a man is promoted to admiral he must be perceived as loyal (have a high social standing). if he is not perceived as being loyal (has low social standing) he will not be promoted.

SOC does not represent loyality, but your status in society. See that Dulinor was SOC G (as he was an Archduke), and his loyality may well be under suspiction...

As youself said, no aldmiral will be handed to someone with SOC 7, but does that mean that no middle class person wil lbe raised to Aldmiral, or that no aldmiral will be any longer seen as middle class person?

as for changing (notice the word here is not "raising") social standing, this would be quite an issue for discussion.

Agreed, and first it should be discussed what SOC does exactly mean, as is one of the more ambiguous stats...

a nobility system would not behave that way.

Do you mean in a nobility system no one is given a title due to his success in career? In which nobilty system do you base this statement?

Even in EG!, where nobility means all, you can be awarded titles due to being successful in war, reaching offices or Ranks, etc...

 

[whartung]

I think they would go hand it hand.

If you need to have a B (pulling that out of thin air) SOC to be an admiral, then the fact that you are an admiral means you have a B SOC.

Getting promoted to Admiral would grant you that SOC. Unless the Admiral is a fallen one, then his SOC and title go hand in hand.

Before he was a Commander, now he's an Admiral, with all the rights and privileges of the position. As an up and coming Commander, the officer was rising in the ranks, to where he would stand out to those who decide to promote Commanders to Admirals. So, internally, when someone is on that track, and "people know" he's a "shoe in" for Admiral, he perhaps gains some internal, synthetic SOC, but once he's actually granted the rank, then, implicitly, he gets that new SOC rating.

 

[mike wightman]

I can see where you are coming from with this; under LBB1 a soc of 8- gives you a 17% chance of commission, while a soc of 9+ increases your chance to 28%. Still not great but better.
Note that once you are commissioned soc plays no further part, unlike the Marines where a soc of 8+ makes promotion easier.

 

[pendragonman]

See that in MgT CB (1^st Edition al teast), the benefit for reaching Navy Captain is SOC 10 or +1 SOC, whichever is higher, and to reach Aldmiral grade the benefit is SOC 12 or +1 SOC, whichever is higher.

So, true, those high Naval officers are all high SOC, because if they are not, they have it risen.

Just being Soc A or Soc C does not make you noble. I think many here in this thread are conflating the two.

Just because you are a CEO/Baron of Industry does not automatically make you an actual Baron. In fact, while there are circles of society that both CEOs and Barons move in, there are also circles that they move in that are completely seperate from each other.

 

[aramis]

Just being Soc A or Soc C does not make you noble. I think many here in this thread are conflating the two.

Just because you are a CEO/Baron of Industry does not automatically make you an actual Baron. In fact, while there are circles of society that both CEOs and Barons move in, there are also circles that they move in that are completely seperate from each other.

The rules of the game do conflate them, in almost all editions. (MGT providing for Soc B+ in the 3I who are not nobles is the outlier, and is fundamentally wrong.)

 

[flykiller]

Just being Soc A or Soc C does not make you noble.

lbb1 in discussing initially generated character stats states that socB=knight and socC=baron, and that anyone of socB+ may use his family's inherited title. so yeah, socB+=full on nobility.

(the fact that 1/12 of randomly generated characters will be nobility with family titles strongly supports whipsnade's view of the imperial nobility being "men of respect".)

Getting promoted to Admiral would grant you that SOC.

that's a peasant's view, not the view from the top.

 

[flykiller]

The rules of the game do conflate them, in almost all editions.

perhaps this is because of a lack of effort to define "nobility" at all - after all, the majority of the game fans are equalitarian/meritocracy democrats who reject the very notion of nobility. do any of these rulesets make a good effort to define their "nobility"? its function and purpose and effects? because any "nobility" will define everything else - their empire, their navy, their governments, their policies, the rest of the population (ESPECIALLY that portion of the population that is competent and therefore a threat) - in terms of the nobility themselves first.