Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Social standing is too general, assuming that it's used to establish access, networks and contacts across the board.
absolutely. it's a technical environment punishing of mistakes and unforgiving of incapacity.
for the lower officer levels, up to captain.
admiralty (that is, imperial admiralty), command and fleet command, strategic command, is a whole 'nuther ball of wax. no-one, no matter how competent, would be promoted into that unless they already were a member of the club.
quite true. general contacts are best handled by leader, broker, liaison, etc. the better view is that ss defines _certain_ _specific_ contacts and network access.
As I already said, in most societies where nobility was really important, a promising comoneer would (if he caught the right person's attention) rather be given a title than allowed his talent (usually military) be wasted.
In a times where nobiliary titles counted, as the European Barroque, the son of a farmer (although with distant noble relatives) could end as a vice-aldmiral and knighted.
Of course, having family connections helps, and not only in the Navy or Marines, but if you achieve a high enough rank by own merit, you can eventually be knighted or even given a higher title.
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The way I interpret it is the official societal resource 'quality' of the contacts made.
That's why I have Streetwise rolls as roll at or higher then SOC, + skill DM, and task to roll to get loans/funding as roll SOC or lower with DMs on amount.
Higher SOC should be the base or major DM for political action and avoiding legal problems.
Both have access to resources, just of a different nature.
All wrote much after the period, what does Maryat say? He served under Cochrane and Jane Austen's brother was a Naval Captain, he also held a commission as Captain of 'Sea Fensibles', whatever that is and Home-Popham as a captain held a commission as Colonel of Marines, presumably thanks to his support by the grand old duke of York.
Kind Regards
David
To use a real world example Admiral Woodward was of middle class background, he was knighted, then promoted to Admiral and whilst his Soc may not have increased, he certainly became a household name.
Kind Regards
David
MThompson016
SOC-12
The "Sea Fencibles" were a maritime defense organization set up to use the talents and knowledge of local fishermen and coastal sailors during the Napoleonic Wars.
A Colonel of Marines in the Napoleonic period was a senior Navy Captain who was distinguished, but not ready to be a flag officer. It was a salaried sinecure of the Royal Navy.
And why should his SOC not have increased when being knighted?
See that in the Early Adventures (CT), Akidda Laagiir and Dur Telmon are intially SOC 6 and Dr Kreinstein is SOC 9 (Aybee's is listed as 8), but all of them have their SOC increased to B when they are knighted, regardless their previous SOC.
The question is whether he was Knighted in order to become an Admiral, or could he have become and Admiral, Knighted or no.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Seems an automatic assumption, since presumably if you have achieved that high rank, it's a combination of thanks for your years of devoted service and an acknowledgement of having climbed up the ladder.
There have been some who've gotten a knighthood for less.
There have been some who've gotten a knighthood for less.
Again, actual history may be some help here.
David Beatty was promoted to Rear Admiral without being a knight first or being knighted as part of the promotion. Beatty was serving in the pre-WW1 RN too when the UK was far more aristocratic and hierarchical than now.
Beatty's career gave him enviable social connections. He served aboard Victoria's yacht, served under one of Victoria's sons, and was an aide-de-camp to Edward VII. Those connections made him a rear admiral and made him one by special order because he hadn't held a captain's rank long enough, but those same connections didn't see him knighted until nearly two years after that promotion.
england is a small place, and the grand high admiral was well within summoning distance of the king and parliament. the king's personal acquaintence with and knowledge of a commander in question would have been viewed as sufficient. but jump distances require another approach.
did you notice that book I recommended a month or two ago, "1916 the battle of jutland"? it outlines beatty's plans and command interactions very well.
Distance? Jellicoe and Beatty spent a good portion of their careers away from the UK and, because it hadn't been invented yet, away from the easy summons/control of radio. (Jellicoe was born before the American Civil War.)
All I'm saying is that social connections and/or competence aren't always enough. It's a mixture of the two instead. I'm also saying that being a knight or a member of the nobility isn't an absolute requirement for flag command. It may be a result of obtaining flag command, but it's not a prerequisite.
I think part of the difficulty is our perception of SOC as a stat. We tend to view it as being culminative because all the other stats are such; a STR of A includes a STR of 9, 8, 7, and so forth. However, as the Streetwise and Liaison skills explicitly imply, a SOC of A does not somehow encompass the understanding/experience of SOC 4.
If by plans and command interactions, you mean none and poor, then yes.
I've got too many books about Jutland, if that's possible, including the recent one by Jellicoe's grandson.
(blink) well it's certainly presented as such.
most of the views presented here would be best described as deprecating and dismissing the notion of social standing and nobility, and best served and implemented by eliminating the social standing stat and nobility itself in favor of simple corporate rank and promotion. 77777.
which is fine. but I thought that if ss was a stat then it should be a driver rather than a result.
Well, doesn't that then promote essentially a caste system?
If you must already be SOC X to have some role (e.g. Admiral), then the Commanders and what not have no place to grow to. They're trapped as a Commander. If becoming and Admiral does not come with the associated SOC, then what is the Commander to do?
What are the mechanisms of SOC mobility in the society?
essentially, yes. that's the point. (though this misuses the word "caste".)
can't define that until "social standing" and "nobility" are defined.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Promotion to naval Captain rank should have modifications based on social standing, but still be possible.
Promotion to flag rank would require a base level of social standing, that may have been acquired through years of service and achievement as a Captain.
Promotion to flag rank would require a base level of social standing, that may have been acquired through years of service and achievement as a Captain.
