Rank , Command and Ship Size

[pendragonman]

The rules of the game do conflate them, in almost all editions. (MGT providing for Soc B+ in the 3I who are not nobles is the outlier, and is fundamentally wrong.)

And yet we have had the discussion (several times) here in the forums of how a character can be, say, soc C and specifically not be a noble.

Further, T5 has it, unless I am mistaken, that one can not begin play as a noble unless one takes a term in the noble career.

 

[Condottiere]

Politics, precedent and precedence.

Captain of a ship is a post, and if you're in command of the Death Star, chances are that position should be filled by a Fleet Admiral, who would have been vetted countless of time before rising to that rank.

If the post has to be filled by someone with the rank of Captain, and an Admiral could take a temporary demotion.

A high social standing means that all things being equal, you'r more likely to get promoted, and sometimes, you might get it anyway.

If perchance you get promoted to the lofty ranks of captain or admiral, your social status will rise to a minimum value, if it's below that.

 

[aramis]

lbb1 in discussing initially generated character stats states that socB=knight and socC=baron, and that anyone of socB+ may use his family's inherited title. so yeah, socB+=full on nobility.

(the fact that 1/12 of randomly generated characters will be nobility with family titles strongly supports whipsnade's view of the imperial nobility being "men of respect".)



that's a peasant's view, not the view from the top.

Putting the star on the Duke's son will always be preferable to putting it on the peon's son, given the power of the Nobility in the 3I, and all other things being equal. The Duke's son is more ikely to know both what the subsector and sector courts will tolerate, and to be able to make an "us-vs-them" appeal.

The thing is, the way C-Gen works out, most long service officers are Soc 12+ upon exit, even if they only make Lt in their last tour. But promotion is based upon their parental soc, as mods to soc come only from MOBs...

It's one of the few areas where I think Traveller CGen is modelling only those who typically travel the spacelanes... it's certainly not modelling the populations of the worlds.

If one wants a true "Soc Freaking Matters in service" setting, one makes a couple changes...

1. Officer Rank (Bk1 style) cannot exceed Soc-X, where X varies by service: Navy 8, Army 3, Marines 8, Flyers 4, Sailors 6, Merchants 2. Corsairs it cannot exceed 10-R#.
2. All mustering out benefit rolls are made upon the term earned, and att mods applied immediately.

To be truly honest, as is, it's written from an apparent result of:
"Nobles and gentry find it easier to obtain a commission in the Navy than others do, while Marines find connections get them promoted up faster.

 

[flykiller]

Traveller CGen is modelling only those who typically travel the spacelanes... it's certainly not modelling the populations of the worlds.

that view would simplify many issues, but it doesn't seem sustainable. what exactly is the fundamental difference between "those who travel the spacelanes" and those who don't? the lbb1-3 education-8-required tables alone indicate that there are quite a few "ordinary" people who just happen to be travelling the spacelanes, and there's nothing special about a 1-term buck private or a 1-term vehicle mechanic, in the spacelanes or not.

the "nobility" in traveller seem little more than color. implementing them seriously would require refurbishing the entire concept and its application to the game.

If one wants a true "Soc Freaking Matters in service" setting, one makes a couple changes...

could make more changes than that. scouts/merchants with socB+ automatically get a ship, with a + modifier as to its age. mercs with socB+ get a +1 to recruiting and funding and morale. brokers with socB+ get a +1 to cargo rolls. and to be fair, lower ss would result in minuses to such rolls. most players I've seen put their lowest stat in ss - that would change.

 

[aramis]

Outside wartime, fewer than 1 in 10 people join the military. Currently US Pop 318.9M, and 1.4 M in active service, and 0.8 M in Guard/Reserves; closer to 21.8m veterans... around 7.6% of the total population. Even adding all the federal employees only adds 4M more, still under 10%.

If it's actually an Imperial Army that the table represents, then that's even smaller - probably less than 0.1% of the population (and that still generates a HUGE force overall).

Let's see: Flyers and Sailors weren't in the core - they aren't likely to go off world except in time of war.
IN, IMC, IISS: these all have Imperial duty in space.
Nobles: Duty on worlds and obligations to travel to the subsector and higher moots.
Scientist: More likely than burger-flippers to travel off-world by several orders of magnitude - usually for work or to go to work. Professors of anthropology, archeology, sociology, and astronomy are far more likely to travel than business majors...
Bureaucrats: likely get shuffled off-world to prevent local attachments that compromise their big picture view.
Hunters: Prey is always harder where you don't know the land...
Pirates, Belters: Their job is in space.
Cops: given the skill list, they're not off-worlders, so much as constantly in contact with them.
Diplomats: Sure, they go home, but their work is usually dragging them off-world axiomatically, in the era of unitary world governments...

Note: We don't have a career for "Burger-flipper" nor "Janitor"...

 

[pendragonman]

Note: We don't have a career for "Burger-flipper" nor "Janitor"...

Other

 

[flykiller]

Other

yeah, that's what I was thinking. but more than that, low-level "entry" jobs are not end-state exclusive careers and very many people start exactly that way.

Flyers etc

yeah, I see that. what I don't see is how the ones who stay on-world are any different from the ones who go off-world, either by their nature or by the chargen tables. for example take a group of adventurers that never leave a balkanized world but adventure solely on that state - would they be any different, in status or chargen, than a group that goes to the neighboring moon or the neighboring system?

 

[aramis]

Other

Skill list for "Other" is mafioso, not burger flipper.

yeah, I see that. what I don't see is how the ones who stay on-world are any different from the ones who go off-world, either by their nature or by the chargen tables. for example take a group of adventurers that never leave a balkanized world but adventure solely on that state - would they be any different, in status or chargen, than a group that goes to the neighboring moon or the neighboring system?

While not terribly clear in CT, COACC (for MT) makes it clear that local units can be called into imperial service. Flyers and Sailors can be mobilized to take and/or garrison suitable worlds, especially shirtsleeve ones.

 

[Whipsnade]

Interesting thread. A sad one too.

First things first. Just as with Tech Level and for the same reasons, SOC as presented in the LBB1 rules is not exactly how SOC works in the 3I/OTU setting. Settings tweak the rules.

Second thing second. Chargen and it's mechanisms does not reflect the entire population of the 3I/OTU. The "No Shoe Salesmen" corollary has been almost as long as Traveller itself. Chargen is not demographics so let's stop pretending it is.

Finally, SOC and admirals in the 3I/OTU setting...

Not every child of a noble inherits a title and grandchildren inherit even less. Look at Churchill. Grandfather a duke, father a "mere" lord, and Churchill "only" a "right honorable gentlemen". Churchill's father, Randolph, was never knighted and Churchill himself was only knighted in 1953. (After turning down the Dukedom of London!) Does anyone want to argue that Lord Randolph and Rt. Hon. Winston weren't among the upper crust and political elites of the UK?

Churchill grew up in a duke's palace, grew up with nobles, went to school with nobles, socialized with nobles, moved in the same circles as nobles, and wasn't Traveller's SOC B until he was seventy-nine years old.

Churchill was a mover & shaker because he was born, grew up, educated, worked, and lived among movers & shakers. A title wasn't required because the man already lived at the social level any title would provide.

John Jellicoe was born the son of a merchant captain. He joined the RN, served with distinction, was knighted at 41, led the Grand Fleet for two years, served as 1st Sea Lord for a year, became a viscount at 59, and an earl at 66. As his rank and responsibilities increased within the RN and government, so did his work and social interactions with the nobility in the UK. His professional successes not only led to promotions in the RN, but also promoted him socially.

Jellicoe became a mover & shaker through his hard work, professional achievements, and successful interactions with the nobility.

Churchill could have been an admiral without a title because his birth gave him the necessary connections. (Admittedly, he would have most likely been knighted sometime before flag rank as part of a successful naval career.)

Jellicoe was a full admiral who was "only" a knight because the nobility knew him, had worked with him, and trusted him. Jellicoe's work and experience earned him the necessary connections and social promotions.

SOC helps with a 3I/OTU naval career. SOC promotions can be the result of a 3I/OTU naval career. SOC is not necessary for a 3I/OTU naval career however.

For all it's faults, the 3I/OTU setting is more nuanced than binary.

 

[Condottiere]

Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH, TD, PC, DL, FRS, RA (30 November 1874 – 24 January 1965) was a British statesman who was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1940 to 1945 and again from 1951 to 1955. Churchill was also an officer in the British Army, a non-academic historian, a writer (as Winston S. Churchill), and an artist. He won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1953 for his overall, lifetime body of work. In 1963, he was the first of only eight people to be made an honorary citizen of the United States.

Churchill was born into the family of the Dukes of Marlborough, a branch of the Spencer family. His father, Lord Randolph Churchill, was a charismatic politician who served as Chancellor of the Exchequer; his mother, Jennie Jerome, was an American socialite. As a young army officer, he saw action in British India, the Anglo–Sudan War, and the Second Boer War. He gained fame as a war correspondent and wrote books about his campaigns.

At the forefront of politics for fifty years, he held many political and cabinet positions. Before the First World War, he served as President of the Board of Trade, Home Secretary, and First Lord of the Admiralty as part of Asquith's Liberal government. During the war, he continued as First Lord of the Admiralty until the disastrous Gallipoli Campaign caused his departure from government. He then briefly resumed active army service on the Western Front as commander of the 6th Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. He returned to government under Lloyd George as Minister of Munitions, Secretary of State for War, Secretary of State for Air, then Secretary of State for the Colonies. After two years out of Parliament, he served as Chancellor of the Exchequer in Baldwin's Conservative government of 1924–1929, controversially returning the pound sterling in 1925 to the gold standard at its pre-war parity, a move widely seen as creating deflationary pressure on the UK economy.

Churchill could have chosen any career path that he wanted to, and apparently he did, except for Naval, which he did by proxy.

As a wise man once said, with a silver spoon comes great responsibility.

 

[flykiller]

the answers given so far render nobility as mere color, not as a serious setting feature. this prevents any coherent approach to nobility. which is sad, because nobility is obviously a prominent feature of the imperium both as portrayed and inherently.

try this. suppose your character is a baron. cool, you have status! but your father is a count, you have two cousins who are knights, and your uncle is a marquis who has plans for you. that's the way these things work, but how would you fit this into a game? you're a baron, not merely with status but with obligations, very serious obligations that require your response and of which failure to perform will attract a great deal of high level attention.

(heh. for that matter how many players pay any attention to their character's family?)

 

[mike wightman]

You would have to re-write the character generation rules to match the setting.

Soc is a much more important stat in the 3I setting than it is in the CT LBB1-3 rules as written.

 

[whulorigan]

try this. suppose your character is a baron. cool, you have status! but your father is a count, you have two cousins who are knights, and your uncle is a marquis who has plans for you. that's the way these things work, but how would you fit this into a game? you're a baron, not merely with status but with obligations, very serious obligations that require your response and of which failure to perform will attract a great deal of high level attention.

Traveller has historically (since CT: Library Data (1981/1982) defined the nobility as falling into into three types (with some changes and ambiguity introduced by T5) in the OTU:

1) Honour
2) Rank including subtypes:

• Local
• Administrator (~ T5: Ceremonial)

3) High (~ T5: Landed)

You are apparently only considering High and Rank/Administrator Nobles. The Nobles being discussed in this thread (resulting from elevation due to achieving high Military/Naval rank) would very likely be Honour Nobles, who do not have significant positions or functions, and are primarily granted as an honorific (though they may later qualify for and be granted other specific responsibilities as their life-paths and circumstances continue).

You would have to re-write the character generation rules to match the setting.

Soc is a much more important stat in the 3I setting than it is in the CT LBB1-3 rules as written.

Exactly. LBB: 1-3 Nobles are fairly generic. The OTU/3I situation is much more specifically detailed.

 

[flykiller]

You are apparently only considering High and Rank/Administrator Nobles.

well originally I was considering ss. so ...

the nobility as falling into into three types

... what is ss?

LBB: 1-3 Nobles are fairly generic.

I doubt any baron would consider himself "generic".

(shrug) imtu there are two levels of citizenship. one, everyone is a citizen of a world. two, the nobility, which are citizens of the imperium proper. ss describes the relationship between any citizen and the imperial power structure - trust, control, authority. one may be a ceo on one's world but have an ss of 2 in regard to the imperium.

 

[aramis]

the answers given so far render nobility as mere color, not as a serious setting feature. this prevents any coherent approach to nobility. which is sad, because nobility is obviously a prominent feature of the imperium both as portrayed and inherently.

try this. suppose your character is a baron. cool, you have status! but your father is a count, you have two cousins who are knights, and your uncle is a marquis who has plans for you. that's the way these things work, but how would you fit this into a game? you're a baron, not merely with status but with obligations, very serious obligations that require your response and of which failure to perform will attract a great deal of high level attention.

(heh. for that matter how many players pay any attention to their character's family?)

Odds are my uncle the Marquis is the ONLY Landed noble in the lot. The rest of us are the hangers on with courtesy titles, and perhaps some earned reward titles.

Those "Very Serious Duties" ammount to "Don't get arrested and don't get splattered all over the vids doing some wild thing..." (yes, pun intended.)

That said, the Marquis may have plans that do call for my honor title to become a working credential. At which point I'm entering the Noble career.

 

[flykiller]

Odds are my uncle the Marquis is the ONLY Landed noble in the lot. The rest of us are the hangers on with courtesy titles, and perhaps some earned reward titles.

so nobility encompasses both a marquis who may be called upon to, say, put down a rebellion by mora instead of joining it, and also a courtesy title fop?

ss should mean more than that.

 

[whulorigan]

I doubt any baron would consider himself "generic".

Of course not. I was referring to the rule mechanics, not the setting.

 

[whulorigan]

Traveller has historically (since CT: Library Data (1981/1982) defined the nobility as falling into into three types . . .

... what is ss?

I do no understand your question.

 

[aramis]

SS is more about who you know than how much you own, at least as far as it's presented in CT and MT. That Fop knows far more people in interstellar government than the nuveau riche Industrialist. The latter will know more local people on his HQ's homeworld... but when it comes to interstellar clout, the industrialist is trying to break into an old money old boys club...

 

[kilemall]

I would think chargen largely settles this- since you can become captain or admiral without being SOC X and you do not get automatic promotion to X SOC upon attaining those ranks, then the Navy is largely a meritocracy designed to utilize whatever talent is available, and rewards such talent with SOC increases (since the Navy is important to whatever realm, OTU or otherwise).

It follows that command assignment is going to be 'best person for the job', although SOC might be an unofficial tiebreaker.

However, upon leaving the service our low SOC admiral may not get the cushy good ol boys post career executive job at the shipyards. Not 'one of us', you see.

Course, there IS a limit to chargen, or at least possibly a bad assumption built into assuming that chargen is a career model.

We are after all rolling up Traveller characters, people who are not satisfied with the status quo or get cushy jobs.

It may be that for an accurate model of how a society works, that there are ALWAYS SOC modifiers to promotions (possibly positive DMs for low SOC in some cases) and the fleet commanders really do have to be B+ or whatever.

But we are creating characters that don't get those jobs else they would not be travellers, or at least hold onto those jobs.

Who knows, perhaps our travelling low SOC admiral did command, served with distinction, but lost out due to a faux pas at some officer function.