Re-Thinking Classic Traveller Gun Combat

[Supplement Four]

RE=THINKING Classic TRAVELLER GUN COMBAT

Armor




Armor no longer acts on the attack roll as it does in Classic Traveller. Instead, Armor modifies the Damage roll.

Each armor type listed in CT has an associated Armor Value, taken from Striker. This is the base armor modifier to the damage roll. But since different weapons have different penetrating capability against different types of armor, a second modifier is used as well--this one based on the weapon type.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Weapon Damage is modified by...
...............................
Armor Value
Weapon Penetration</pre>[/QUOTE]Armor Value is determined by looking at this chart:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Armor Value
Armor Type AV Note
Jack 0 AV1 vs. Brawling and Blade Combat weapons
Mesh 2
Cloth 5
Reflec 0 AV10 vs. Laser attacks
Ablat 1 AV6 vs. Laser attacks
Vacc Suit 5
Combat Armor 8
Battle Dress 10</pre>[/QUOTE]Weapon Penetration is determined by using the Armor DM chart listed on pg. 46 of Book 1.




When the armor is struck by a weapon, the AV indicates how many damage points will be absorbed by the armor (Weapon Penetration may modifiy this up or down). Any damage in excess of the AV score indicates the armor has been penetrated.

In the game, defending players can decrease damage applied to their characters by an amount equal to the armor's AV score.








-------------------------
Example

For example, a character wearing cloth armor is shot by a revolver. A revolver does 3D damage. Looking at the chart on pg. 46 of Book 1, we see that a revolver is -3 against Cloth Armor. That's the Weapon's Penetration modifier.

Cloth armor has an AV 5. That's the base Armor Value.

Both the Weapon Penetration and the Armor Value will modify damage brought agains the character.

3D damage roll: 5, 4, 1

The defending player can reduce damage by 8 points (AV5 Cloth Armor and -3DM Armor Adjustment due to Revolver vs. Cloth).

Since this is a Gun Combat attack, all damage is taken as a whole. Our total is 10 points of damage. But, the Cloth armor aborbs 8 points.

The result is the Cloth armor was penetrated by the revolver shot to the tune of 2 points of damage. Since this is a Gun Combat attack, that 2 points of damage is applied randomly to the defender's physical stats.

Basically, the Cloth armor absorbed the damage from the gun shot, bruising the target with 2 points of damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

RE=THINKING Classic TRAVELLER GUN COMBAT

Armor




Armor no longer acts on the attack roll as it does in Classic Traveller. Instead, Armor modifies the Damage roll.

Each armor type listed in CT has an associated Armor Value, taken from Striker. This is the base armor modifier to the damage roll. But since different weapons have different penetrating capability against different types of armor, a second modifier is used as well--this one based on the weapon type.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Weapon Damage is modified by...
...............................
Armor Value
Weapon Penetration</pre>[/QUOTE]Armor Value is determined by looking at this chart:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Armor Value
Armor Type AV Note
Jack 0 AV1 vs. Brawling and Blade Combat weapons
Mesh 2
Cloth 5
Reflec 0 AV10 vs. Laser attacks
Ablat 1 AV6 vs. Laser attacks
Vacc Suit 5
Combat Armor 8
Battle Dress 10</pre>[/QUOTE]Weapon Penetration is determined by using the Armor DM chart listed on pg. 46 of Book 1.




When the armor is struck by a weapon, the AV indicates how many damage points will be absorbed by the armor (Weapon Penetration may modifiy this up or down). Any damage in excess of the AV score indicates the armor has been penetrated.

In the game, defending players can decrease damage applied to their characters by an amount equal to the armor's AV score.








-------------------------
Example

For example, a character wearing cloth armor is shot by a revolver. A revolver does 3D damage. Looking at the chart on pg. 46 of Book 1, we see that a revolver is -3 against Cloth Armor. That's the Weapon's Penetration modifier.

Cloth armor has an AV 5. That's the base Armor Value.

Both the Weapon Penetration and the Armor Value will modify damage brought agains the character.

3D damage roll: 5, 4, 1

The defending player can reduce damage by 8 points (AV5 Cloth Armor and -3DM Armor Adjustment due to Revolver vs. Cloth).

Since this is a Gun Combat attack, all damage is taken as a whole. Our total is 10 points of damage. But, the Cloth armor aborbs 8 points.

The result is the Cloth armor was penetrated by the revolver shot to the tune of 2 points of damage. Since this is a Gun Combat attack, that 2 points of damage is applied randomly to the defender's physical stats.

Basically, the Cloth armor absorbed the damage from the gun shot, bruising the target with 2 points of damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Outsider:
This effect is easy to justify if your players are wearing armour during the gunfight. A bullet(s) that hit a person wearing armour still deliver a lot of kinetic energy into their frame, although it is spread out over a wide area and not permitted to penetrate and cause serious tissue damage.

Agreed. But, it's not so esy to justify if an area of the body was hit that is not protected by armor. And, it's certainly not easy to justify if the character is not wearing armor.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Outsider:
This effect is easy to justify if your players are wearing armour during the gunfight. A bullet(s) that hit a person wearing armour still deliver a lot of kinetic energy into their frame, although it is spread out over a wide area and not permitted to penetrate and cause serious tissue damage.

Agreed. But, it's not so esy to justify if an area of the body was hit that is not protected by armor. And, it's certainly not easy to justify if the character is not wearing armor.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Outsider:
But then if they get hit by a gauss rifle burst while they're just wearing their pyjamas they're probably not looking at a trivial wound anyway!

You might be surprised.

Average person has 777 physical stats.

Gauss Rifle does 4D damage.

Average of 4D is 14.

This means that only 50% of the time an average character shot by a Gauss Rifle will take a serious wound that takes out two stats.

That means, the other half of the time, the average person will walk away with a minor wound from a Gauss gunshot.

50% getting a trivial wound by a Gauss rifle seems a bit too high to me.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Outsider:
But then if they get hit by a gauss rifle burst while they're just wearing their pyjamas they're probably not looking at a trivial wound anyway!

You might be surprised.

Average person has 777 physical stats.

Gauss Rifle does 4D damage.

Average of 4D is 14.

This means that only 50% of the time an average character shot by a Gauss Rifle will take a serious wound that takes out two stats.

That means, the other half of the time, the average person will walk away with a minor wound from a Gauss gunshot.

50% getting a trivial wound by a Gauss rifle seems a bit too high to me.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Outsider:
(IMTU though, I have scrapped the weapon vs. armour section of the table, and have assigned an armour value to each type of armour. Each type of armour has five different defence values; ballistic, energy, impact, explosive, penetrative. Incoming fire is reduced by the appropriate amount. Although I understand that MT takes a similar approach, the values I use are home-grown.)

Sounds interesting. I'd like to see it. Post what you've got if you're in the mood to share.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Outsider:
(IMTU though, I have scrapped the weapon vs. armour section of the table, and have assigned an armour value to each type of armour. Each type of armour has five different defence values; ballistic, energy, impact, explosive, penetrative. Incoming fire is reduced by the appropriate amount. Although I understand that MT takes a similar approach, the values I use are home-grown.)

Sounds interesting. I'd like to see it. Post what you've got if you're in the mood to share.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
A rifle has excellent penetration, but poor stopping power.

All good comments.

If you ever see it on the bargain rack, pick up a copy of the out of print Millenium's End rules, by Chameleon Eclectic.

Some of the most realistic gun combat (and especially gun damage rules) you'll ever see, but very complicated...

THE best book I've ever seen on for realistic modeling of weapons in a role playing game can be found in he Compendium of Contemproary Weapons by Maryann Siembieda, published by Palladium Books (for the generic Palladium game system).

This is a great work. It's easily adaptable to other games. I've used it for both the James Bond RPG and for Top Secret/SI.

It's detailed, hits all the factors you'd want to hit when modeling modern-day firearms, and it's simple to use.

It'd be a great resource for what Outsider is describing above.

I've often thought about adapting it to Traveller. I just haven't, and I don't know why. Probably because I like my game tweaks to not stray too far from the source material by introducing foreign concepts to the game.

But, the Palladium guide is a great resource. Pick it up if you find it.

But sometimes it's valuable to have someone come in with some idea from left field that maybe you haven't thought about.

Absolutely.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
A rifle has excellent penetration, but poor stopping power.

All good comments.

If you ever see it on the bargain rack, pick up a copy of the out of print Millenium's End rules, by Chameleon Eclectic.

Some of the most realistic gun combat (and especially gun damage rules) you'll ever see, but very complicated...

THE best book I've ever seen on for realistic modeling of weapons in a role playing game can be found in he Compendium of Contemproary Weapons by Maryann Siembieda, published by Palladium Books (for the generic Palladium game system).

This is a great work. It's easily adaptable to other games. I've used it for both the James Bond RPG and for Top Secret/SI.

It's detailed, hits all the factors you'd want to hit when modeling modern-day firearms, and it's simple to use.

It'd be a great resource for what Outsider is describing above.

I've often thought about adapting it to Traveller. I just haven't, and I don't know why. Probably because I like my game tweaks to not stray too far from the source material by introducing foreign concepts to the game.

But, the Palladium guide is a great resource. Pick it up if you find it.

But sometimes it's valuable to have someone come in with some idea from left field that maybe you haven't thought about.

Absolutely.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
That all said, I really like the basic Traveller firearm damage rules. In my opinion exactly what Supplement Four points out -- that they are kind of deadly in that one hit will usually drop you, but they aren't really deadly in that that same shot will not actually kill you -- is perfect as a game-play mechanic.

Well said.

I might point out that this new system I'm developing is still not ultra-realistic. It's just much more deadly than vanilla CT.

What will happen is this: The game will be exciting because attack throws will be successful more often.

Since the damage is more deadly, defenders will sweat the evasion roll.

Most of the time, defenders will evade.

But...

When the evasion roll is bricked (and I've weighted it so that it won't happen often), characters will take more damage than they usually would in vanilla CT. (We're talking about Gun Combat here...not Blade or Brawling Combat...that damage remains relatively unchanged).

Character will be hit less often (because of the Evasion roll), but when they are hit, they'll most likely suffer a serious gunshot wound instead of a minor wound that heals quickly...and there is a greater possibility that the character will be shot dead.

A Critical Success or a Head Shot can add 1D to damage. If a Head Shot occurs as a result of a Critical Success, then 2D are added to damage. A heavy roll can kill a character outright, where that wasn't even possible in vanilla CT.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
That all said, I really like the basic Traveller firearm damage rules. In my opinion exactly what Supplement Four points out -- that they are kind of deadly in that one hit will usually drop you, but they aren't really deadly in that that same shot will not actually kill you -- is perfect as a game-play mechanic.

Well said.

I might point out that this new system I'm developing is still not ultra-realistic. It's just much more deadly than vanilla CT.

What will happen is this: The game will be exciting because attack throws will be successful more often.

Since the damage is more deadly, defenders will sweat the evasion roll.

Most of the time, defenders will evade.

But...

When the evasion roll is bricked (and I've weighted it so that it won't happen often), characters will take more damage than they usually would in vanilla CT. (We're talking about Gun Combat here...not Blade or Brawling Combat...that damage remains relatively unchanged).

Character will be hit less often (because of the Evasion roll), but when they are hit, they'll most likely suffer a serious gunshot wound instead of a minor wound that heals quickly...and there is a greater possibility that the character will be shot dead.

A Critical Success or a Head Shot can add 1D to damage. If a Head Shot occurs as a result of a Critical Success, then 2D are added to damage. A heavy roll can kill a character outright, where that wasn't even possible in vanilla CT.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm thinking that UGM users can make the evasion roll as a UGM task--which may allow another DM due to natural ability (but this will typically only come into play with either the defender's stat is high).

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm thinking that UGM users can make the evasion roll as a UGM task--which may allow another DM due to natural ability (but this will typically only come into play with either the defender's stat is high).

 

[Supplement Four]

Characters who are standing still and not behind cover will likely be hit and damaged with this system.

Characters who use cover or are moving at high speed (running at Speed-2) at range (Medium Range or farther) have a good chance of avoiding being damaged even if the attacker is highly skilled.

This is a good "play-balance" to the system.

-S4

 

[Supplement Four]

Characters who are standing still and not behind cover will likely be hit and damaged with this system.

Characters who use cover or are moving at high speed (running at Speed-2) at range (Medium Range or farther) have a good chance of avoiding being damaged even if the attacker is highly skilled.

This is a good "play-balance" to the system.

-S4

 

[Outsider]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Outsider:
But then if they get hit by a gauss rifle burst while they're just wearing their pyjamas they're probably not looking at a trivial wound anyway!

You might be surprised.

Average person has 777 physical stats.

Gauss Rifle does 4D damage.

Average of 4D is 14.

This means that only 50% of the time an average character shot by a Gauss Rifle will take a serious wound that takes out two stats.

That means, the other half of the time, the average person will walk away with a minor wound from a Gauss gunshot.

50% getting a trivial wound by a Gauss rifle seems a bit too high to me. </font>[/QUOTE]Aha, not so. I did say if they were hit by a gauss burst, which could be up to three hits by standard rules, so the unlucky target would actually be taking:

4D damage (14 points, average) or
8D damage (28 points, average) or
12D damage (42 points, average)

For an average 777 guy with 21 points of damage soaking, this is a world of hurt. For a perfect mighty FFF physique (with 45 points worth of damage soaking, there's a near 50% of an instant kill if all three rounds hit.

For my mind, a single gauss round doesn't usually result in a kill because it's a very small, high velocity round, ideal for penetrating armour. However, against soft tissue there'll be a lot of wasted energy as it overpenetrates, the density of the human body being insufficient to destabilise it sufficiently to start it tumbling. Hydrostatic shock is probably responsible for the majority of the tissue damage (the high velocity may even mean that tissue compaction damage from bow-wave pressure trauma is relatively minimal since the round might pass through the body so quickly, the pressure waves don't have enough time to act; I don't have sufficient data on the actual effects of such ultra-high velocity rounds to make more than a guess).

And while it would be more realistic to model different levels of damage depending on the target's armour and how the round responds to it, I haven't done that IMTU yet, and doubt that I will, since I like to keep the complexity low.

Furthermore, if a penetrating high velocity shot hit a bone then it would almost certainly fracture/shatter it and bone fragments would compound the injury, but again that's too complicated to want to model for MTU.


OK... and now onto my home-grown(TM) armour rules. I'll put these in the following post as soon as I've worked out how to preserve the table format!

 

[Outsider]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Outsider:
But then if they get hit by a gauss rifle burst while they're just wearing their pyjamas they're probably not looking at a trivial wound anyway!

You might be surprised.

Average person has 777 physical stats.

Gauss Rifle does 4D damage.

Average of 4D is 14.

This means that only 50% of the time an average character shot by a Gauss Rifle will take a serious wound that takes out two stats.

That means, the other half of the time, the average person will walk away with a minor wound from a Gauss gunshot.

50% getting a trivial wound by a Gauss rifle seems a bit too high to me. </font>[/QUOTE]Aha, not so. I did say if they were hit by a gauss burst, which could be up to three hits by standard rules, so the unlucky target would actually be taking:

4D damage (14 points, average) or
8D damage (28 points, average) or
12D damage (42 points, average)

For an average 777 guy with 21 points of damage soaking, this is a world of hurt. For a perfect mighty FFF physique (with 45 points worth of damage soaking, there's a near 50% of an instant kill if all three rounds hit.

For my mind, a single gauss round doesn't usually result in a kill because it's a very small, high velocity round, ideal for penetrating armour. However, against soft tissue there'll be a lot of wasted energy as it overpenetrates, the density of the human body being insufficient to destabilise it sufficiently to start it tumbling. Hydrostatic shock is probably responsible for the majority of the tissue damage (the high velocity may even mean that tissue compaction damage from bow-wave pressure trauma is relatively minimal since the round might pass through the body so quickly, the pressure waves don't have enough time to act; I don't have sufficient data on the actual effects of such ultra-high velocity rounds to make more than a guess).

And while it would be more realistic to model different levels of damage depending on the target's armour and how the round responds to it, I haven't done that IMTU yet, and doubt that I will, since I like to keep the complexity low.

Furthermore, if a penetrating high velocity shot hit a bone then it would almost certainly fracture/shatter it and bone fragments would compound the injury, but again that's too complicated to want to model for MTU.


OK... and now onto my home-grown(TM) armour rules. I'll put these in the following post as soon as I've worked out how to preserve the table format!

 

[Outsider]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Armour Values

Armour Defensive values Dexterity
Ballistic Energy Piercing Impact Explosive Modifier

None * 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jacket * 0 0 1 1 0 0
Mesh/Flak * 1 0 1 1 1 0
Cloth * 2 0 1 2 1 -1
Reflective * 0 4 0 0 0 0
Ablat * 0 4 1 2 1 -2
Combat 3 2 4** 4 3 -1
Battle Dress 4 3 5** 5** 4 -1
Helmet 2 1 3 2 1 0</pre>[/QUOTE]This table replaces the Weapon vs. Armour type section of the original Traveller combat table.

Each time a hit is received, each dice of incoming damage has its value reduced by the appropriate amount from the table above. Except where noted by a double asterisk, the dice may not be reduced below 1. Armour types noted by a double asterisk may reduce the incoming damage dice to zero, but not below.

Knockdown
Any incoming hit has a chance of knocking the target off his/her feet. This is determined using double the target's current strength rating.

If the incoming damage before any armour reduction exceeds twice the current strength characteristic of the target, they are knocked over. (What about a task/saving throw to avoid this? To consider.)

Since battle dress effectively doubles the wearer's strength, knockdown effects against battle dress-suited troopers will naturally be reduced.
(Should this use double current strength, or current strength plus original strength? To consider.)

Helmets
Certain armour types (marked with a single asterisk) may have helmets worn with them in addition to the basic armour type. Unless a head hit is specified, or deemed appropriate by circumstances, rule incoming hits to be against the body.

Armour Damage
Players should keep a note of how much damage their armour has taken, since cumulative damage will necessitate repairs and eventual replacement.


These values are still largely under playtest since my campaign is very new and significant gunplay hasn't occurred yet. However, given the current destination of the players, that's about to change..!

IMTU, heavy armour isn't something that civilians can easily get hold of, and battle dress would be something to merely dream about.

And a final note... aimed shots to hit locations are permitted, to take advantage of lighter-armoured areas of the body, obviously subject to a -DM to hit.


(Sorry about the small text for the table... I've found that I officially hate the CODE function!)

 

[Outsider]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Armour Values

Armour Defensive values Dexterity
Ballistic Energy Piercing Impact Explosive Modifier

None * 0 0 0 0 0 0
Jacket * 0 0 1 1 0 0
Mesh/Flak * 1 0 1 1 1 0
Cloth * 2 0 1 2 1 -1
Reflective * 0 4 0 0 0 0
Ablat * 0 4 1 2 1 -2
Combat 3 2 4** 4 3 -1
Battle Dress 4 3 5** 5** 4 -1
Helmet 2 1 3 2 1 0</pre>[/QUOTE]This table replaces the Weapon vs. Armour type section of the original Traveller combat table.

Each time a hit is received, each dice of incoming damage has its value reduced by the appropriate amount from the table above. Except where noted by a double asterisk, the dice may not be reduced below 1. Armour types noted by a double asterisk may reduce the incoming damage dice to zero, but not below.

Knockdown
Any incoming hit has a chance of knocking the target off his/her feet. This is determined using double the target's current strength rating.

If the incoming damage before any armour reduction exceeds twice the current strength characteristic of the target, they are knocked over. (What about a task/saving throw to avoid this? To consider.)

Since battle dress effectively doubles the wearer's strength, knockdown effects against battle dress-suited troopers will naturally be reduced.
(Should this use double current strength, or current strength plus original strength? To consider.)

Helmets
Certain armour types (marked with a single asterisk) may have helmets worn with them in addition to the basic armour type. Unless a head hit is specified, or deemed appropriate by circumstances, rule incoming hits to be against the body.

Armour Damage
Players should keep a note of how much damage their armour has taken, since cumulative damage will necessitate repairs and eventual replacement.


These values are still largely under playtest since my campaign is very new and significant gunplay hasn't occurred yet. However, given the current destination of the players, that's about to change..!

IMTU, heavy armour isn't something that civilians can easily get hold of, and battle dress would be something to merely dream about.

And a final note... aimed shots to hit locations are permitted, to take advantage of lighter-armoured areas of the body, obviously subject to a -DM to hit.


(Sorry about the small text for the table... I've found that I officially hate the CODE function!)