Re-Thinking Classic Traveller Gun Combat

[travlar]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Outsider:
Aha, not so. I did say if they were hit by a gauss burst, which could be up to three hits by standard rules, so the unlucky target would actually be taking:

Point taken.

But my argument has been that a gauss rifle firing single shot should be enough to down an individual.

Not really so in Classic Traveller.

For the matter of my rules here, it's still "not really so" but only a "little more so".

I'm trying to balance playability and dangerous damage. </font>[/QUOTE]A single gauss rifle hit on an unarmored person should very rarely kill him, because the bullet will go straight through without slowing down much and make a little 4mm hole. I think the chance of someone going unconscious should be modified by both endurance and how many times he's been shot before (only to a certain point though).

 

[travlar]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Outsider:
Aha, not so. I did say if they were hit by a gauss burst, which could be up to three hits by standard rules, so the unlucky target would actually be taking:

Point taken.

But my argument has been that a gauss rifle firing single shot should be enough to down an individual.

Not really so in Classic Traveller.

For the matter of my rules here, it's still "not really so" but only a "little more so".

I'm trying to balance playability and dangerous damage. </font>[/QUOTE]A single gauss rifle hit on an unarmored person should very rarely kill him, because the bullet will go straight through without slowing down much and make a little 4mm hole. I think the chance of someone going unconscious should be modified by both endurance and how many times he's been shot before (only to a certain point though).

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
A single gauss rifle hit on an unarmored person should very rarely kill him, because the bullet will go straight through without slowing down much and make a little 4mm hole. I think the chance of someone going unconscious should be modified by both endurance and how many times he's been shot before (only to a certain point though).

Remember that Gauss projectiles are FAST - several times as fast as a regular bullet; the kinetic energy involve would be therefore quite high. Wouldn't that cause additional damage?

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
A single gauss rifle hit on an unarmored person should very rarely kill him, because the bullet will go straight through without slowing down much and make a little 4mm hole. I think the chance of someone going unconscious should be modified by both endurance and how many times he's been shot before (only to a certain point though).

Remember that Gauss projectiles are FAST - several times as fast as a regular bullet; the kinetic energy involve would be therefore quite high. Wouldn't that cause additional damage?

 

[Outsider]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Remember that Gauss projectiles are FAST - several times as fast as a regular bullet; the kinetic energy involve would be therefore quite high. Wouldn't that cause additional damage?

Up to a point, yes. I'll commit a slight internet sin here by quoting myself from the previous page...

"For my mind, a single gauss round doesn't usually result in a kill because it's a very small, high velocity round, ideal for penetrating armour. However, against soft tissue there'll be a lot of wasted energy as it overpenetrates, the density of the human body being insufficient to destabilise it sufficiently to start it tumbling. Hydrostatic shock is probably responsible for the majority of the tissue damage (the high velocity may even mean that tissue compaction damage from bow-wave pressure trauma is relatively minimal since the round might pass through the body so quickly, the pressure waves don't have enough time to act..."

...just to get the relevant text all in the same place.

High velocity does, in itself, create extra damage as a result of the bow-wave of the penetrating round. A 6mm or 8mm bullet can easily create a path of crushed and damaged tissue half an inch or more in diameter; the higher the velocity, the wider the path. However, I surmise (although I don't have data to back this up, alas) that once a certain velocity is reached, no more passage trauma can be caused because the bullet has passed through and there is a limit to how fast the shockwave will travel through tissue.

Caveat 1. We're talking about non-fragmenting, non-tumbling stable bullets here; probably armour piercers. A fragmenting or destablised bullet behaves very differently (to the detriment of the target!).

Caveat 2. We have to also assume that no bones are hit by the high velocity bullet, since that will cause extra damage from bone fragements being displaced into neighbouring tissue.

The random damage dice roll is, in my mind, a simple way of determining if the bullet has hit non-vital tissue, or a vital organ, artery or major bone. It's not very realistic, although it works for me as a game mechanic.

(Hard though it may be to believe, although I've been spouting off here about the intracies of bullet penetration damage, I prefer my games to have quick, simple and fun combat rules rather than over-complicated simulations!)

 

[Outsider]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Remember that Gauss projectiles are FAST - several times as fast as a regular bullet; the kinetic energy involve would be therefore quite high. Wouldn't that cause additional damage?

Up to a point, yes. I'll commit a slight internet sin here by quoting myself from the previous page...

"For my mind, a single gauss round doesn't usually result in a kill because it's a very small, high velocity round, ideal for penetrating armour. However, against soft tissue there'll be a lot of wasted energy as it overpenetrates, the density of the human body being insufficient to destabilise it sufficiently to start it tumbling. Hydrostatic shock is probably responsible for the majority of the tissue damage (the high velocity may even mean that tissue compaction damage from bow-wave pressure trauma is relatively minimal since the round might pass through the body so quickly, the pressure waves don't have enough time to act..."

...just to get the relevant text all in the same place.

High velocity does, in itself, create extra damage as a result of the bow-wave of the penetrating round. A 6mm or 8mm bullet can easily create a path of crushed and damaged tissue half an inch or more in diameter; the higher the velocity, the wider the path. However, I surmise (although I don't have data to back this up, alas) that once a certain velocity is reached, no more passage trauma can be caused because the bullet has passed through and there is a limit to how fast the shockwave will travel through tissue.

Caveat 1. We're talking about non-fragmenting, non-tumbling stable bullets here; probably armour piercers. A fragmenting or destablised bullet behaves very differently (to the detriment of the target!).

Caveat 2. We have to also assume that no bones are hit by the high velocity bullet, since that will cause extra damage from bone fragements being displaced into neighbouring tissue.

The random damage dice roll is, in my mind, a simple way of determining if the bullet has hit non-vital tissue, or a vital organ, artery or major bone. It's not very realistic, although it works for me as a game mechanic.

(Hard though it may be to believe, although I've been spouting off here about the intracies of bullet penetration damage, I prefer my games to have quick, simple and fun combat rules rather than over-complicated simulations!)

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tbeard1999:
One change that I made is that less serious wounds do not accumulate into more serious wounds -- this is really no different than hit points. Characters can theoretically take an unlimited number of light wounds, although the -1 modifiers are cumulative and the player character will ultimately be rendered useless.

This is the Azhanti High Lightning system and to be honest it drives me nuts. By the end of the fight everyone's running around with -3 modifiers but no one's actually been incapacitated. Even a gauss rifle versus lowly cloth armor requires an eight or better to incapacitate. Granted, this is a wargame, not an RPG where, as you mention, the referee can wave his hands and say all the NPC's are out for the count. And, also, AHL doesn't allow for multiple hits from automatic weapons, so maybe that changes things, too. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, the multiple hits rule makes a dramatic difference. In Striker, you score an additional hit for every 2 points you roll above the base "to hit" number. So at effective range, a modified roll of 10-11 is 2 hits; a modified roll of 12-13 is 3 hits, etc. Autofire bonuses average +2, weapon skill bonuses probably average +2 and DEX bonuses can add +1. This means that it isn't uncommon for a burse to score 2-3 hits. Even the lowly TL7 Assault Rifle has a ~50% chance of causing a serious wound vs cloth armor with 3 hits. (Pen 3, needs a 10+ on penetration roll, 1/6 chance, 3 shots).

And if the light wound issue still whips you, you might try several options:

1. Allow a maximum of (2?) light wounds to affect the character during the combat.

2. Limit the number of light wounds that have an effect per #1, but provide that additional light wounds after (2?) will disable an arm or leg (player's choice?). Thus, light wounds will tend to limit mobility and capability, rather than make it impossible to do something.

3. Provide that additional light wounds beyond (3?) cause serious wounds.

--Ty

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tbeard1999:
One change that I made is that less serious wounds do not accumulate into more serious wounds -- this is really no different than hit points. Characters can theoretically take an unlimited number of light wounds, although the -1 modifiers are cumulative and the player character will ultimately be rendered useless.

This is the Azhanti High Lightning system and to be honest it drives me nuts. By the end of the fight everyone's running around with -3 modifiers but no one's actually been incapacitated. Even a gauss rifle versus lowly cloth armor requires an eight or better to incapacitate. Granted, this is a wargame, not an RPG where, as you mention, the referee can wave his hands and say all the NPC's are out for the count. And, also, AHL doesn't allow for multiple hits from automatic weapons, so maybe that changes things, too. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, the multiple hits rule makes a dramatic difference. In Striker, you score an additional hit for every 2 points you roll above the base "to hit" number. So at effective range, a modified roll of 10-11 is 2 hits; a modified roll of 12-13 is 3 hits, etc. Autofire bonuses average +2, weapon skill bonuses probably average +2 and DEX bonuses can add +1. This means that it isn't uncommon for a burse to score 2-3 hits. Even the lowly TL7 Assault Rifle has a ~50% chance of causing a serious wound vs cloth armor with 3 hits. (Pen 3, needs a 10+ on penetration roll, 1/6 chance, 3 shots).

And if the light wound issue still whips you, you might try several options:

1. Allow a maximum of (2?) light wounds to affect the character during the combat.

2. Limit the number of light wounds that have an effect per #1, but provide that additional light wounds after (2?) will disable an arm or leg (player's choice?). Thus, light wounds will tend to limit mobility and capability, rather than make it impossible to do something.

3. Provide that additional light wounds beyond (3?) cause serious wounds.

--Ty