Reading a subsector - Regina

[Supplement Four]

I'm not saying that there won't be any small tramp freighters. There will be some. Just not many. And they'll be small obsolescent ships disposed of by companies at a discount, not purpose-built.

Hafta disagree with you there, Hans. You could do a study on lifetime of $50,000 cars vs. $15,000 cars, and it could be shown that the $50K car is a much better investment for the dollar.

That still won't change the fact that there are a buttload more $15K cars out on the road vs. the $50K cars.

With Traveller starships, we're talking about a HUGE amount of money, and J-3 ships are much, much more expensive than J-1 ships.

You're going to see A LOT of J-1 ships plying the spaceways. There will be many, many more J-1 ships than J-3 ships.

Canon seems to support this, too, with the types of ships players run into in adventures and supplements.







EDIT:

BTW, the proliferation of J-1 ships makes the choice of X-Boat routes in the Regina subsector make a lot of sense. The J-1 vessels are "landlocked" in the star clusters. The X-Boat routes connect all the star clusters, doing the job that can't be done by the mom-and-pop tramp freighters.







2nd EDIT:

One other flaw I see in your reasoning, Hans, is this: J-3 ships may be more efficient and economical than J-1 ships, but that only holds true if the distance traveled is greater than one parsec.

If I'm on Efate, and I'm trying to send goods to Alell, then it will cost me the same whether I contract with a J-1 ship or a J-3 ship. Customers trying to ship their goods from Efate to Pixie, otoh, will, of course, prefer the J-3 ship (as it is 1/3 the cost of a J-1 vessel doing the trip).

On top of this is the cost of time. Maybe you're on Feri, and you need to send some goods to Enope. But, all the J-3 ships are full and going to either Boughene or Roup. If it's important enough, you'll pay the twice of a J-1 ship to go to Enope if the J-1 ship and deliver it when you need it and the doulbe cost is worth it to you.

The niche of the J-1 tramp captain lies there.

 

[Supplement Four]

....For that matter, what about the Imperial Navy? LBB5, pg. 20, says that Ships constructed at a Class A starport are constructed at the TL of the world. And, it also says there that the Imperial Navy procures vessels in the TL 10-15 range.

So...are we to assume that an Imperial Naval base is locked at the TL of the world on which it sits? This would make a lot of (logistical) sense.

Or, are we to assume that all Imperial Naval bases are TL 15, regardless of the TL of the world (akin to US bases in Vietnam during that war).

Or...maybe the Imperial Navy doesn't manufacture its own ships at all. Maybe it buys them from civilian contractors at Class A starports?

I did some more research, and it seems that Imperial Naval bases do not carry shipyards unless necessary (see pg. 10 of Supp11). They contract with civilian yards at the local Starport.

Now, LBB5, pg. 20, says that a Class A starport will create a ship at the TL of the world on which the starport sits (orbits).

So, given those two canon references, it seems that the Imperial Navy contracts ship building to civilian manufactures at local facilities.



...and this begs the question....where do the TL 15 vessels come from?

Are TL 15 Imperial Naval vessels extremely rare?

 

[rancke]

Hafta disagree with you there, Hans. You could do a study on lifetime of $50,000 cars vs. $15,000 cars, and it could be shown that the $50K car is a much better investment for the dollar.

Better in what way? Can it be shown that small cheap cars are better for hauling large amounts of goods long distance than big expensive trucks? I sincerely doubt it.

That still won't change the fact that there are a buttload more $15K cars out on the road vs. the $50K cars.

How many cars hauling freight compared to trucks?

With Traveller starships, we're talking about a HUGE amount of money, and J-3 ships are much, much more expensive than J-1 ships.

They are more expensive, yes, but not much, much more expensive. As I've already explained, if your purpose is to haul goods or passengers more than one parsec, they are, in fact, less expensive than the number of jump-1 ships you'd need to perform the same job. Three jump-1 ships cost more than one jump-3 ship. Even if you account for the jump-3 ship having to be a bit bigger to carry the same amount of cargo or passengers.

You're going to see A LOT of J-1 ships plying the spaceways. There will be many, many more J-1 ships than J-3 ships.

Canon seems to support this, too, with the types of ships players run into in adventures and supplements.

Actually, the types of ships players run into in adventures and supplements are a highly skewed sample. It's hardly surprising that we see more tramp freighters than company vessels and it doesn't prove a thing.

No, the part of canon that supports your notion is where it talks about the huge importance of the jump-1 mains. Unfortunately, that part of canon does not fit with the part of canon (the ship-building rules) that says that jump-2 and jump-3 traffic is cheaper than jump-1 traffic for anything more than one-parsec routes. It's almost as if the people who wrote about the jump-1 mains were making things things up out of thin air without considering the ramifications of the ship-building rules.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

No, the part of canon that supports your notion is where it talks about the huge importance of the jump-1 mains. Unfortunately, that part of canon does not fit with the part of canon (the ship-building rules) that says that jump-2 and jump-3 traffic is cheaper than jump-1 traffic for anything more than one-parsec routes. It's almost as if the people who wrote about the jump-1 mains were making things things up out of thin air without considering the ramifications of the ship-building rules.

I know this is a long-time pet peeve of yours, but I'm stand firmly on the other side of the issue. And, I can't agree with many of your conclusions.

(But, your comment above about the religious war on one of the planets is quite interesting.)

 

[rancke]

J-3 ships may be more efficient and economical than J-1 ships, but that only holds true if the distance traveled is greater than one parsec.

Sure.

If I'm on Efate, and I'm trying to send goods to Alell, then it will cost me the same whether I contract with a J-1 ship or a J-3 ship.

Actually, it will cost you more, since a jump-3 ship is more expensive than a jump-1 ship and carries less cargo to boot. Using a jump-3 ship on a jump-1 route is a sure way to go bankrupt.

Customers trying to ship their goods from Efate to Pixie, otoh, will, of course, prefer the J-3 ship (as it is 1/3 the cost of a J-1 vessel doing the trip).

More like half the cost. Well, I don't know how much the need to carry extra fuel will affect the jump-1 ship's operating costs.

On top of this is the cost of time. Maybe you're on Feri, and you need to send some goods to Enope. But, all the J-3 ships are full and going to either Boughene or Roup.

I assume you mean jump-2 ships.

If it's important enough, you'll pay the twice of a J-1 ship to go to Enope if the J-1 ship and deliver it when you need it and the double cost is worth it to you.

I'm very pleased with the example you've chosen, because it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Let me ask you: What jump-1 ship? Since Pscias is interdicted, Feri has effectively no regular jump-1 traffic. Unless you're so lucky that someone just happens to have sent a special delivery by jump-1 tramp from Enope to Feri via Pscias, there won't be any jump-1 ships in the Feri system. But I get your point. If you're on Efate and want to send a special load to Regina, there will be some jump-1 ships in regular route back and forth to Alell. But they won't be going to Regina. They'll be going to Alell. As for the time element, it takes a jump-1 ship 60 days to get from Efate to Regina (I usually calculate with 10 days per jump if you don't have to spend time on trading). A jump-3 ship gets there in 20 days. If you have a cargo that urgently need to go to Regina, you can wait 39 days for a spot on one of the regular jump-3 freighters and still get it there faster than by jump-1 ship. Or you might put it aboard one of the jump-4 ships that are going to Roup and have it transferred to one of the jump-3 ships that connect Roup and Regina.

The niche of the J-1 tramp captain lies there.

Agreed, but that's exactly what it is. A niche. A tramp freighter gets by on the bits that slip through the cracks. And there just won't be enough bits to support large numbers of tramp freighters. If there were, some enterprising company would find it worthwhile to muscle in on the traffic.



Hans

 

[aramis]

WJP:
There was an article which said that a starport always built at a minimum TL of 9 for an A port, and 8 for a B port.

Hans:
Canon shows the lines operating adventure class ships in The Traveller Adventure.

 

[Supplement Four]

A tramp freighter gets by on the bits that slip through the cracks. And there just won't be enough bits to support large numbers of tramp freighters. If there were, some enterprising company would find it worthwhile to muscle in on the traffic.

And I would say to this: There are companies with a fleet of exclusively J-1 ships operating viable trade routes.

Efate is a great example. It's the powerhouse industrial planet of the subsector. There will be companies that specialize in traffic to Alell and Uakye. Especially Uakye, as it gets most of its high tech imports from Efate (to maintain Uakye's TL D with its non-industrial infrastructure).

There's got to be several companies based on Efate and Uakye with a fleet comprised of only J-1 ships, specializing in trade, to-and-fro, between the two worlds.

Your position is that there isn't much room for J-1 ships in the Traveller universe, except as a niche market.

I stand on the opposite side of that opinion. I bet there are tons of companies in the Traveller universe taking advantage of J-1 shipping--in examples like the Efate-Uakye run. But also in star clusters. The J-1 routes in most star clusters have to be the backbone of trade in those regions. A world probably trades "mostly" with its closest neighbors. Therefore J-1 ships are more viable that what you give them credit for.

 

[Supplement Four]

There was an article which said that a starport always built at a minimum TL of 9 for an A port, and 8 for a B port.

Yeah, it's first mentioned, I believe, in DGP's Grand Census or Grand Survey (forget which). It may have appeared in the Traveller's Digest before mention in those works, though.



(BTW, "WJP" isn't my initials. It's the initials of my company.)

 

[rancke]

Canon shows the lines operating adventure class ships in The Traveller Adventure.

What's your point? Canon shows many things. Some of them make sense. Some don't. The writeup of Al Morai have them routinely using jump-4 ships on one-parsec routes. Now that's about as sensible at firing bales of credit notes into the sun. However, that's what canon says. But as Marc Miller himself said one time: It also has to make sense.

In the present case I'm not arguing that companies don't use adventure class ships. I'm sure some do (Especially jump-2 and jump-3 adventure class ships ). Though I can't recall any in The Traveller Adventure. ISTR that TA has a whole slew of bigger ships used by the companies written up. But maybe I'm just not remembering them. What does that have to do with the fact that jump-1 ships are unable to compete with jump-2 and jump-3 ships on long-distance routes?


Hans

 

[rancke]

And I would say to this: There are companies with a fleet of exclusively J-1 ships operating viable trade routes.

Yes, and they're all one-parsec routes. As I said in my first post on this subject "except for ships going back and forth between neighboring systems" or words to that effect.

Efate is a great example. It's the powerhouse industrial planet of the subsector. There will be companies that specialize in traffic to Alell and Uakye. Especially Uakye, as it gets most of its high tech imports from Efate (to maintain Uakye's TL D with its non-industrial infrastructure).

Sure, all the regular traffic between Efate and Uakye and between Efate and Alell (and between Alell and Uakye) will be by jump-1 ship. But they'll be jumping back and forth between those worlds. Not between Efate and Regina.

There's got to be several companies based on Efate and Uakye with a fleet comprised of only J-1 ships, specializing in trade, to-and-fro, between the two worlds.

Sure.

Your position is that there isn't much room for J-1 ships in the Traveller universe, except as a niche market.

My informed opinion is that if the ship-building rules are anywhere close to the "truth" then there isn't much room for jump-1 tramp ships in the Traveller universe. Regular shipping is another matter, but it's not very exiting is it? Not really adventurer material.

I stand on the opposite side of that opinion. I bet there are tons of companies in the Traveller universe taking advantage of J-1 shipping--in examples like the Efate-Uakye run. But also in star clusters. The J-1 routes in most star clusters have to be the backbone of trade in those regions. A world probably trades "mostly" with its closest neighbors. Therefore J-1 ships are more viable that what you give them credit for.

Maybe you think I'm saying something that I'm not. I'm not saying that worlds don't trade with neighbors (provided said neighbors have a decent population). I'm saying that if the neighbors lie more than one parsec away, that trade will be carried in jump-2, jump-3, or (in some cases) even higher jump ships. And BTW, in the TU a lot of worlds don't have a decent population, which spoils most potential jump-1 mains for jump-1 traffic almost as effectively as empty hexes.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Maybe you think I'm saying something that I'm not.

I may have misunderstood. I agree that, if the freight needs to go three parsecs, then a ship with J-3 capability is what most sellers will look to use (barring some time element and a scarcity of J-3 ships).

The one thing I *think* you're saying is that there is very little place for a J-1 vessel in the Traveller universe. That's what I disagree with. I think there are several areas where a J-1 ship is needed.

We haven't even discussed in-system operations. Star systems that are highly populated outside of the main world will (and systems with heavy traffic in the asteroid belt) will make a lot of use of J-1 ships for micro-jumps.

 

[rancke]

I may have misunderstood. I agree that, if the freight needs to go three parsecs, then a ship with J-3 capability is what most sellers will look to use (barring some time element and a scarcity of J-3 ships).

The one thing I *think* you're saying is that there is very little place for a J-1 vessel in the Traveller universe. That's what I disagree with. I think there are several areas where a J-1 ship is needed.

Well, in that case, let be back-pedal a bit. Yes, there's room for jump-1 ships in the TU. But it will be confined to highly localized situations. You won't see jump-1 ships wend their way along the Spinward Main from Trin to Glisten via District 268, the way canon has it. By the time a jump-1 ship has made its way along the Spinward Main from Trin to Glisten, a jump-3 ship will have been back and forth via Hammermium, Robin, and Bendor several times. Nor will you see many jump-1 ships going between Glisten and Bendor via Tsarina and Sorel. Maybe there'll be room for a few jump-1 passenger liners going back and forth every two month, but not many, and they will be used by people who are only going to the next world along. Anyone who wants to get from Bendor to Glisten will take a direct liner.

Now, if jump-1 traffic was actually cheaper than jump-3 traffic, you would have both the fast jump-3 ship going directly and the "local" jump-1 stopping at all stations along the line, and people would trade off time for money. Much more room for jump-1 ships, right? But since the jump-3 connection is both faster AND cheaper, much less room for jump-1 ships. Sad, but true, no?

I've been toying with the idea of changing the per ton cost of jump drives to jump number squared (i.e. MCr1 per ton for jump-1, MCr4 per ton for jump-2, MCr9 per ton for jump-3, etc.) I haven't worked out the costs, but I suspect it would make jump-1 competitive (on cost).

We haven't even discussed in-system operations. Star systems that are highly populated outside of the main world will (and systems with heavy traffic in the asteroid belt) will make a lot of use of J-1 ships for micro-jumps.

That's an interesting idea. Thanks for reminding me of it. It's an option I tend to forget, but you're absolutely right about jump-1 ships being useful for in-system traffic.


Hans

 

[BigBadRon]

Hmm... but without the Jump-1 ships, then the Jump-3 ships are going to get lumbered with carrying all the stuff that does only need to go to the next world along a Main - and that is incredibly inefficient use of them.

Also, I don't see Jump 1 ships trying to make the same sorts of runs along the Mains as a Jump-3 ship can. A J-3 ship might be able to get from A to F in a single week, while a J-1 ship takes a couple of months to go the long way round, but a J-1 captain won't try to do that. At least if he has a brain he won't.

Instead he'll take cargo and passengers from A to B, then take on a new cargo and passengers to ship to C, then a new load for D... another load to E, and a final load for F.

That way he makes money on each leg of the journey, and visits all those worlds, from B to E, that the J-3 ship ignored.

IMTU, there is plenty of work for shorter Jump ships, since there are a lot of jobs that the J-3 boys would rather not take, because if the cargo only has to be taken a single parsec, they're no faster than a J-1, and have (relatively) less space for cargo and passengers. J-1 ships can turn a profit on a run which would see a J-3 ship losing money.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, in that case, let be back-pedal a bit. Yes, there's room for jump-1 ships in the TU. But it will be confined to highly localized situations.

I think we disagree here.

I think that trade with other worlds will drop off sharply the farther out you get from the source world, on average. Markets have to be developed for the world's goods.

Therefore, I think there's plenty of work for the J-1 tramps.

And, I don't think it needs to be so localized. I think the canon adventure class method of traveling up and down the main, picking up a cargo here, speculating there, is viable (but the margins are thin...).

Now, I *don't* think that's the norm, either. Most companies serve specific areas of space. They don't travel around, willy-nilly, when a fertile trading ground can be set in stone.

And, I think most people in the TU don't ever, never, ever, never leave their homeworlds. It's too expensive. I think "Travellers" are a whole other class of society--the people who crew the merchant vessels jumping from world to world (or the Scouts, Imperial Navy types, etc).

But, your average joe has never left his homeworld. 16,000Cr and two-week travel time is a lot to pay (when monthly rent for an average quality home averages 200Cr per month).

Travellers who visit worlds are probably regarded as quite exotic very often.

 

[Spinward Scout]

The X-Boat routes connect all the star clusters, doing the job that can't be done by the mom-and-pop tramp freighters.

The books do say that the Trade Routes follow the X-Boat routes. But then that leads me to think that there should be more J-4 ships than anything.

Very interesting thread.

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't see anything in the quote which suggests that the Imperium imposes order on local ground forces. I think there's a difference between "the army" and "the Army" in this case.

Vargas,

I actually stumbled across a canonical reference that supports your interpretation. Check out Adventure 13 Signal GK. There, a character is referenced as being a Colonel in the Imperial Army.

 

[jec10]

The 4 page section makes it far more clear than the bit quoth...
Each World has an army, and the Imperium established a set of standards.

Bk5 (and MTPH) make it clear that there are both local, sector, and Imperial naval services with shared structure (but independent command).

Canon explicitly says worlds have their own armies.
Unfortunately, nowhere in canon does it say there is or is not a sinular Imperial Army force. Invasion Earth lists army units with homeworld ID's... so we don't know if these are truly imperial units or if they are local world units seconded to imperial service, or even routinely assigned local units in imperial service.

But 5FW (the boardgame - published way back in 1981 - designer Marc W Miller) is rather decisive on all these points, I would have thought. There are regular Imperial Army units maintained at high tech levels, i.e. TL14-15. They have numerical designators like 3012 Field Army. They are not small units but are field armies, corps, divisions and independent regiments.

They are clearly not local units because in the game there is a whole separate category of "colonial" units which have different colour counters. Some of these colonial units are maintained at high tech levels and have numerical designators rather like the Imperial Army units - I'd suggest these are _{sector forces. Others are clearly the "deployable" elements of planetary armed forces that have been seconded to off-world service for the duration. These units typically have the tech level of their homeworld, and are all different sizes. So Equus, for instance, contributes a Colonial Lift Infantry Corps equipped to TL11, while Efate contributes one of TL13. Then the worlds themselves have their non-deployable planetary defence forces which are strictly for home guard duties, but are much bigger than the deployable component. Contrary to Aramis' suggestion, the same is true of Invasion: Earth, where there are regular Imperial Army troops (with numerical designators such as 299 Lift Infantry Army) and Colonial Army troops, clearly distinguished by counter colour. I'm always mystified by the dispute over whether there is an "Imperial Army" when from the Traveller boardgames it is quite clear.}

 

[atpollard]

I'm always mystified by the dispute over whether there is an "Imperial Army" when from the Traveller boardgames it is quite clear.

You tell 'em.

VIVA the Imperial Army!

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm always mystified by the dispute over whether there is an "Imperial Army" when from the Traveller boardgames it is quite clear.

I can see both sides of this issue. I used to be on the "There IS an Imperial Army" side, but have switch, over time, to the "Naw...it's the Unified Armies of the Imperium".

There is so little canonical evidence in CT, one way or the other.

On the one hand, there's the board games and the reference in Signal GK I mention above.

On the other hand, it does seem in many places of CT that there is no "Imperial Army", so to speak. Why no bases? The Zhodani have Army and Naval bases, so I don't think it was an oversight by GDW not to mention the Army and assume the Army is attached to the Naval bases.

Plus, Library Data confirms that most Naval bases are strictly support installations. No combat units included (Not even Marines!).

So, where are all these Imperial Army units stationed?







EDIT:

Just to add a little more muddle to the mix...

I looked at the definition of the careers in the MT Players Handbook. Check it out. It is clear that characters in the Army are not in an Imperial Army, but in the planetary Army. Characters in the Navy, though, are members of the Imperial Navy.

 

[Vargas]

Vargas,

I actually stumbled across a canonical reference that supports your interpretation. Check out Adventure 13 Signal GK. There, a character is referenced as being a Colonel in the Imperial Army.

In fact, he's a Colonel in Imperial Army Intelligence, (which I think is the only CT reference to that). And the pendant in me says that it doesn't matter what MT says about the Army since this is a CT thread.