Reading a subsector - Regina

[Supplement Four]

In fact, he's a Colonel in Imperial Army Intelligence, (which I think is the only CT reference to that).

Playing both sides of this topic...one could also interpret the Imperial Army as the "Colonial" Imperial Army (or the Unified Armies of the Imperium, as GT's Ground Forces calls them). And, with that interpretation, that Colonel is with one of the planetary armies working along the 3I - Solomani border.

As they are colonial armies, they are working for the interests of both the 3I and their world. They would work closely with the 3I, expecially through Naval Intelligence.

 

[jec10]

A few more CT datapoints...
...in JTAS 8 TNS on page 5 describes the sudden buildup of Imperial Army formations on Efate immediately preceeding the 5FW: "already official circulars list eleven brigade-sized Imperial formations deployed on planet...Even now, large transports are off-loading the heavy vehicles of the well-equipped and hard-hitting 317th Air Mechanized Brigade..." The commander is Army Vice-Marshal Lord Calavan.
...in JTAS 10 on page 28 is an article on "Military Academy: An Option for Mercenary" describing an Imperial Military Academy, an Imperial Staff College and an Imperial Commando School.
...in JTAS 16 TNS on page 5 describes "the Imperial 85th Field Army" securing the surface of Heya as part of operations against the Vargr.
...in JTAS 26 page 38 notes "though not shown in the planetary statistics, there are also Marine and Army installations of comparable size and purpose".

 

[Supplement Four]

...in JTAS 26 page 38 notes "though not shown in the planetary statistics, there are also Marine and Army installations of comparable size and purpose".

I'm not really sure which side of the issue I'm on. As I've said, I see both sides as viable.

But, I was kinda excited when I looked up this cite. Then, my excitement left me a bit. First, the article is tagged as a Traveller Variant. In the past, "variant" JTAS articles have presented optional rules that are not considered canon--but optional. Some JTAS articles need to be looked at closely. Some are canon. Like the articles and rules editions written by GDW staff. Others are just that--articles. No different than something you might find in the Judges Guild Pegasus magazine or Game Workshop's White Dwarf.

For example, this Traveller Variant article is completely at odds with the description of Naval Bases contained in Sup 11. Which is more "canon" here? The GDW published Supplement? Or the self-tagged variant article in JTAS?

I'm going to go look at your other cites, though, and see what's there to be seen.

 

[Supplement Four]

A few more CT datapoints...
...in JTAS 8 TNS on page 5 describes the sudden buildup of Imperial Army formations on Efate immediately preceeding the 5FW: "already official circulars list eleven brigade-sized Imperial formations deployed on planet...Even now, large transports are off-loading the heavy vehicles of the well-equipped and hard-hitting 317th Air Mechanized Brigade..." The commander is Army Vice-Marshal Lord Calavan.

Again, I'm an impartial judge. I see both sides of this issue. I'll admit, though, that I'm leaning more towards the "No Imperial Army" argument. It seems to make more sense.

The Army cited here is the "newly formed Third (Provisional) Frontier Army".

The entire TNS article, dated 078-1107, reads to me as if colonial units from neighboring worlds have been "drafted" to form a temporary force created to meet the threat of the Fifth Frontier War.

Note that the Army was just formed in 1107, and it is a "provisional" Army.

 

[Supplement Four]

Imperial Army vs. Colonial Army

The more I read up on the "Army" in Traveller, the more I'm convinced that the structure has much in common with the Imperium's feudal system.

The Emperor must maintain control of the Imperium, and he does so through threat of force with the Imperial Navy. The Imperium controls space between the stars. Member world are left to their own devices, as much as possible. But, if a rebellious world can't get much more than a parsec or so from its homeworld (because the Imperial Navy will stop them), it's a relatively isolated incident.

The ground armies, on the other hand, are more akin to a Duke's forces in feudal England. The King would muster his nobles to create an army, and then go off and fight the wars.

That seems to be the norm with the "Army" in Traveller. Look at the 4518th Lift Infantry. That the Duke of Regina's boys. When the Duke came in defense of the realm, he brought his troops in the name of the Emperor. These weren't Imperial Army troops before.

I think many worlds in the 3I have standing armies. Colonial armies. And, part of membership in the Imperium is that the world army may be called upon to defend the empire.

In times of war and other large scale emergencies, these Colonial armies are merged to form Provisional Imperial Armies (as is demonstrated in the Efate TNS broadcasts from the Fith Frontier War).

When the crisis is over, the Imperial Provisional Armies are disbanded, returning to their homeworlds under the command of thier Dukes (and other nobles).

 

[deniable]

Then, my excitement left me a bit. First, the article is tagged as a Traveller Variant. In the past, "variant" JTAS articles have presented optional rules that are not considered canon--but optional.

Next thing you'll tell me is that IRIS isn't canon.

I sort of split the Army both ways. The Imperial Army exists but has more of a coordination function. It would also include things like intel for larger areas like sectors. This is like the British Army with a General Staff and various geographically based regiments.

Imperial formations can be composite units made up of planetary forces. It's kind of like a US Army division made of several states' National Guard brigades. If these are permanent arrangements or ad-hoc is another question. They could also be dedicated Imperial units held at at the (sub)sector level. Units like GT's Sylean Rangers would fit this category.

 

[Supplement Four]

You know, another thing a GM can do in reading a subsector is limit choices of career based on the homeworld.

For example, the Imperial Navy is only a choice for a character from a homeworld with a Naval base.

Since it seems the Navy would be interested in recruiting troops from like homeworlds (adjusted to the same gravity), this makes some sense.

If a player wants to join the Navy, then maybe his homeworld has a planetary navy?

Or, the GM could read the surrounding worlds, close to the character's homeworld. Where is the nearest Imperial Naval base? What's the population like on that world? What's the world size (gravity)? Is there any reason the Naval base would be recruiting from outside of the world on which the base sits?

Supplement 3 states that worlds of TL 7 or TL 8 with Pop 6+ will have planetary naval forces on a throw of 6+. Those navies aren't capable of interstellar flight. But, worlds of TL 9+ and Pop 6+ will have local naval forces that are interstellar capable.

In addition, any world on a jump route will have a minimal scout base even if a scout base is not indicated in the world data.

So, the GM could read this data and rule that...



Imperial Naval or Marine careers aren't possible unless the world contains a Naval base. But, the local navy may be possible, given the rules above.

The Army is the army available on the world. The army is the easiest career in which to enlist, but the character will be trained at the TL of the world (which might make the higher enlistment throws of the Navy and Marines make more sense--the character is probably trained at a higher TL).

Scout careers are possible if the world has a scout base or lies on an X-Boat route.

Merchant careers will depend on the starport (typically always available).

Other careers are typically always available.

Careers in Supplement 4 are available when they make sense. Belter careers are available if the homeworld has an asteroid belt. Etc.



Playing this way makes the "Draft" more attractive to players. If he's from a crap homeworld without much career choice (nothing that interests him, anyway), he can willingly submit to the draft--guarranteed to get into one of those six careers.

 

[GypsyComet]

Next thing you'll tell me is that IRIS isn't canon.

Don't get me started.

The final analysis is that a group calling themselves that and claiming that authority became canon. They were never able to exercise that authority except in the negative, since Strephon used them to remove himself from the War. Had they attempted to exercise their "authority" in the positive sense, either Lucan or Dulinor would have had them summarily destroyed. Virus made the whole thing a moot point, and the 4th Imperium doesn't seem inclined to empower such an organization.

Ahem...

One of the things I found while "reading" a campaign area (be it a subsector, a pair or them, or a quadrant) that has been the subject of further publication is that I needed to visit all the other source material for the region. That led to the notes that became http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/worlds.html

And is also why the next campaign moved to unpublished territory, namely Daibei.

 

[aramis]

Vargus: I believe you mean 'pedant' rather than 'pendant.' To be pedantic about it, that is. And MT is post 5FW by about 7 years. It's as good a reference as happens.

IMTU, there is an Imperial Army: it's a series of supra-regimental HQ's, forming brigades and larger via consolidation of various regiments from member worlds, and individuals seconded from other services. It has no standing forces, per se, but some worlds local forces are maintained above local technology on "Army Budgetary Grants" (in short, your world's imperial army taxes must be spent on maintaining TL 12+ forces... even if they are mercs... for deployment to the Army.

Units not up to TL14 are colonial, TL 14/15 units (whether native TL14+ or simply maintained above local) are "Imperial." Essentially, it's borrowed from the WEG SWRPG.

But it is fairly vague. T4 implies the same local army only prejudice as MT.

 

[Supplement Four]

Reading Ground Forces more closely, I see that I was wrong about the book's take on the Imperial Army issue.

GF does say there is an Imperial Army. They're controlled at the sector and subsector levels, usually by the local nobles (who usually appoint a general as the forces Marshall), and they can be bolstered by colonial troops when needed.

I've never been a fan of the book's author after seeing how he would conduct himself on the TML. But, I've got to admit, is book is interesting.

 

[jec10]

MT Rebellion Sourcebook seems to think there is an Imperial Army (see especially pages 37-38): "The Imperium maintains standing military forces in order to provide security for its bases and governmental offices, and
in order to maintain peace and order. Imperial forces range
in size from armies to platoons. Higher level units (armies,
corps, divisions) coordinate with local popular forces and include
them in their span of control. Lower level units make up
the reaction forces of the Imperium and are generally mobile
units which can respond quickly when trouble flares up."

MT RS is fairly congruent to the structure I described from 5FW boardgame and Invasion Earth boardgame, although it calls the non-deployable units "local popular forces". The chart for determining a system's forces on page 37 is similar to that in the JTAS article describing 5FW. Furthermore it notes: "Identifications for troop units are ordinarily numbers which range
from single digits to four (or even five) digits. The numbers are
assigned arbitrarily by the Imperial bureaucracy as the units are
raised; as a result of mixing and transfers, the numbers are scattered
throughout the Imperium in no particular order, although lower
numbers tend to be closer to the core, and higher (4-digit) numbers
tend to be on the borders."

And one other JTAS TNS item I forgot: "EFATE/REGINA (2109-A64930-D) 148-1106
Reliable sources in the defense establishment have admitted
in private that the Imperial Army’s 1197th Separate Light
Infantry Brigade has been engaged in counter-insurgency
operation in the Vandere district of Komoran (Efate’s northern
continent) for the last eight months. When asked to comment
on Rear Admiral Lord Santanocheev’s recent claim that no
Imperial army or marine units had been committed, they
declined. One official did explain, however, that the brigade
was only employed in mopping-up operations and had been
inserted only to allow rotation of the local units in the Vandere
have had a spell in the rear, the 1197th will be pulled out,” he
said."

And 5FW boardgame indicates the Imperial troops sent to Efate just prior to the war are not Colonial forces but are rather an Imperial Army formation, the largest in that part of the Spinward Marches at the start of the war - most large Imperial Army formations only begin to arrive several months into the war with the Corridor Fleet and other reinforcements. Large Colonial army units arrive somewhat sooner than their Imperial Army counterparts with the Colonial squadrons from Rimward about six weeks into the war.

 

[Mithras]

Don't you find some of the world names are UGLEE! Knorbes, Whanga, Hefry, Boughene, Ruie, Moughas ... Moughas!

I think I'll be changing some of those for my new solo campaign!

I notice District 268 has some very nice-sounding world names.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, after reading the three pages of thread hijacking, I will agree that "reading" an area is important. That's why my ATU is being generated with the entire system for each hex fully done up. Of course, that's also why it's taking forever.... :nonono:

When I have the third sector done (out of 8), I will post it on CotI and ask for inputs on all those interesting tidbits you mention, S4: where do the real mains lie, why are those worlds uninhabited, how does that system (full of 12 inhabited planets/moons) interact economically with its neighbors, etc.? (A favorite will need to be: why wouldn't a bunch of airless rocks, with hundreds of people on them, with TL=4-6, be mines, even though the main world is "NInd"? )

 

[aramis]

Fritz: discussions flow. They morph. It wasn't a hijack. A hijack would be coming in and throwing issues which had not arisen in the course of discussion.

Now, back on topic: The Invasion Earth (and MT) tables for determining strength (in factors equal to a regiment of infantry) the strength of a world's forces can make for some interesting additions to just the subsector itself.

 

[GypsyComet]

Don't you find some of the world names are UGLEE! Knorbes, Whanga, Hefry, Boughene, Ruie, Moughas ... Moughas!

I think I'll be changing some of those for my new solo campaign!

If you must, but not all words or proper names ARE pretty. If you haven't studied any French, some of these names are tongue trippers. For me, those are perfectly fine as world names: "Norbs", "WHANG-A" (the sound of something bouncing off the hull of the First Contact team's lander), "Heh-free", "Bo Jean" (or "Boo Jean"), "Roo-ee", and "Moo-gus".

It is a valid part of subsector reading however. Looking over the names and deciding how the natives pronounce the name, and if the neighbors use the same pronunciation...

 

[Plankowner]

I did a similar subsector reading IMTU.

I developed the region in 500 year steps. I rerolled many of the UWP numbers (SP, POP, GOV, LL, TL) and came up with justifications for why they had changed. Interaction with neighbors was very important.

When one world had it's population go up by 3 and it's neighbor went up by 2 but went from a democracy to balkanized. Well, you can see what happened (COLONIZATION). Gave me a natural Amber Zone...

Reading sub-sectors is how a bunch of UWPs and circles on a hex map becomes a PLACE. With the Sectors and Sectors of data out there, it's the details that keep things from being bland.

Great thread!

 

[rancke]

Hmm... but without the Jump-1 ships, then the Jump-3 ships are going to get lumbered with carrying all the stuff that does only need to go to the next world along a Main - and that is incredibly inefficient use of them.

I'm well aware of that. If you go back over my previous posts, you'll note that I made the same point myself. Trade between neighboring worlds one parsec apart will be carried on jump-1 ships. But ONLY that trade. Anything that has to go further than one parsec will go by ships with higher jump numbers.

Just to make myself clear: I'm not talking about small obsolescent second-hand tramp merchants (a.k.a. free traders) making a precarious living jumping from world to world, scrounging for cargo and passengers and jumping on with half-filled stateroom and holds, going bankrupt with depressing regularity. I'm talking about regularly scheduled ships owned by companies who bought them from new, confident that they'd be able to fill the holds often enough to make a profit.

Also, I don't see Jump 1 ships trying to make the same sorts of runs along the Mains as a Jump-3 ship can. A J-3 ship might be able to get from A to F in a single week, while a J-1 ship takes a couple of months to go the long way round, but a J-1 captain won't try to do that. At least if he has a brain he won't.

Instead he'll take cargo and passengers from A to B, then take on a new cargo and passengers to ship to C, then a new load for D... another load to E, and a final load for F.

I assume you mean another load to F, and a final load for G.

That way he makes money on each leg of the journey, and visits all those worlds, from B to E, that the J-3 ship ignored.

(Side note: The J3 ship didn't ignore D; it has to stopover there in order to get to G ).

Anyway, what you describe works until he gets to C. Then he'll find that there isn't any cargo from C to D to be had. One in every four Traveller worlds (10 in 36, actually) have less than 10,000 inhabitants. (Note: I don't know exactly how big a population it takes to generate enough freight and passengers to keep a ship in business, so I chose 10,000 as the dividing line. If you guys will accept the information in GT:Far Trader as reasonable, I could do some number crunching).

Sure, there will be mini-mains where random chance (sorry, I meant the flow of history) have created a string of worlds all populous enough to support a ship. Regina is on one that runs from Knorbes to Phlume and Rech, a grand total of 12 systems. Just how many ships the trade generated by worlds like Dinom and Jenghe can support is another question.

IMTU, there is plenty of work for shorter Jump ships, since there are a lot of jobs that the J-3 boys would rather not take, because if the cargo only has to be taken a single parsec, they're no faster than a J-1, and have (relatively) less space for cargo and passengers. J-1 ships can turn a profit on a run which would see a J-3 ship losing money.

No argument there. What I've been saying is that those runs are mostly very short and localized. I'm sure there are lots and lots of 10,000 T jump-1 freighters jumping back and forth between Rhylanor and Porozlo. I'm just as sure that there are NO jump-1 ships going regularly between Regina and Rhylanor (or Regina and Efate, or Regina and Strouden, or Regina and Mora, etc.).

Another example: A company may employ a jump-1 ship going back and forth between Mora, Jokotre, and Fornice, but it won't employ it going into Deneb or further into the Marches, because Dojodo and Grille are almost as effective as barriers to commercial traffic as an empty hex is (Not quite, of course; at least you can get fuel in the systems).



Hans

 

[rancke]

I think that trade with other worlds will drop off sharply the farther out you get from the source world, on average. Markets have to be developed for the world's goods.

That I can agree with. The professional economist who wrote GT:Far Trader used the gravity model, which was developed from empirical data here on Earth. Everything else being equal, trade drops with distance the same way gravity drops with distance.

The thing is, everything else isn't equal. Population size makes a lot of difference. Regina will have a lot more trade with Rhylanor, a high-population world fifteen parsecs away, than it will have with Jenghe, a world with 3 million people one parsec away. That's just common sense.

Therefore, I think there's plenty of work for the J-1 tramps.

Ah, tramps... I wasn't even talking about tramps. Tramps exist in the cracks. The small unconsidered trifles that the regular companies can't be bothered with. As there can only be so many scraps, I don't see how there can be room for many tramps. If there are enough scraps to keep a lot of tramps in business, it would be worthwhile for a company to employ another couple of ships.

And, I don't think it needs to be so localized. I think the canon adventure class method of traveling up and down the main, picking up a cargo here, speculating there, is viable (but the margins are thin...).

See my reply to BigBadRon. Precisely because the margins are thin, a ship can't afford to jump empty in order to get past a low-population world. And if you examine the Spinward Main, you'll note that it has plenty of low-population worlds to interrupt the meanderings of profit-seeking jump-1 ships.

But, your average joe has never left his homeworld. 16,000Cr and two-week travel time is a lot to pay (when monthly rent for an average quality home averages 200Cr per month).

That's another place where the rules don't reflect the underlying "realities". The true cost of moving someone one parsec (assuming double occupancy of staterooms, which is perfectly legal under the rules even though there is no 'economy class' ticket mentioned in the CT rules) is under Cr4,000. Still a lot of money, but not out of reach of the upper middle class.

But even if only millionaires can afford to travel among the stars, high-population worlds have a lot of millionaires.


Hans

 

[rancke]

IAnd the pedant in me says that it doesn't matter what MT says about the Army since this is a CT thread.

Some of us believe that the universe described by MT material is the same as the universe described by CT material. We call it the Official Traveller Universe.



Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

That's another place where the rules don't reflect the underlying "realities". The true cost of moving someone one parsec (assuming double occupancy of staterooms, which is perfectly legal under the rules even though there is no 'economy class' ticket mentioned in the CT rules) is under Cr4,000. Still a lot of money, but not out of reach of the upper middle class.

Let's look at this as a rough estimate in today's dollars. It's 200Cr per month rent for an ordinary quality lodging. Apartment rent would translate to about $1000 a month, on average (where I live). That means a Cr is equal to about $5.

So, it would cost, round trip, about $40,000, and a minimum of 3 weeks away from your job (figure one week travel each way and at least a week at your destination).

The upper middle class can afford 3 week vacations, no doubt. But, I don't think the average upper middle class family will be taking too many $40,000 vacations.

It might be a once in a lifetime deal, but $40,000 is a new car. It's something you'd finance for 3 years or so.

Space travel is very expensive, and very time consuming. As I said, I don't think too many people will be leaving their homeworlds in the Traveller universe. It's not like Star Wars where you can pop into the family shuttle and trek over to the other side of the galaxy.

Even at double occupantcy, you're talking $40,000 for a two-way trip.