Marcatlas
SOC-12
With no integration like in our world. Cargo lines aren't integrated with manufacturers and distributors.
Restrict Ship Sizes?
- Thread starter casquilho
- Start date
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Government subsidies and preferential treatment.
I'd say that our real world "wet" and air shipping is a bit more mixed. Some producers/distributors do own or lease their own ships and planes, although usually not enough for all of their shipping needs. For instance, Amazon has some cargo planes and did purchase or take long leases on a number of small/medium container ships in 2020/21 to help them smooth out the increase in demand for shipping during the pandemic era; I don't know if they still have them. A lot of the RoRo car carrier ships are owned by car manufacturers and, of course, many oil companies own tankers.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
That is a completely emergency situation. 99.99% of companies who make stuff do NOT own or operate their own shipping. The exception simply proves the rule I posted.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
But they do leverage the shipping companies.
See Samsung.
See Samsung.
It looks like some of my post got deleted. Or I forgot to write it. It was (in my head) something like:
"However, those are exceptions. Most manufacturers/retailers do not own their own shipping."
And I did say the situation was more mixed than your original absolutist statement.
Yes they are.
The Lee Byung Chul Chaebol (Samsung, Shinsegae, CJ, BGF, JooAng, Hansol and others) and the Chung Ju Yunli Chaebol (Hyundai and all its various parts) both have logistics conglomerates under their banner.
In Japan both Mitsubishi and Mitsui have logistics conglomerates under their banners.
I know less about modern China but the Chinese have at various points experimented with full vertical integration. The Hongs of the Qing dynasty were fully integrated, with workshops, resource acquisition and logistics all operating under one banner.
Sorry to double post but it’s important to add to this.
In addition to the fact that the chaebol that owns Samsung also owns two major logistics firms (CJ and Hansol). Samsung (or more accurately the Lee Byung Chul Chaebol) is perhaps the closest thing to an Imperial Megacorporation (outside of the Japanese Zaibatsus of the 20th century) in the modern world.
The chaebol that Samsung is a part of makes up 20% of the South Korean economy. The other chaebols combined make up roughly 30%. Being 20% of the national economy makes you politically powerful and gives you a lot of leverage, and allows you to offer benefits to your preferred partners that your competitors (such as they are) can’t.
I don’t know if we’ve ever been given data from the OTU about how much the Megacorps contribute economically to the Third Imperium but I imagine they, like the chaebols make up around 50-60% or more of the Imperial economy. If we pretend for a moment that Ling is 20% of the Imperial economy, just imagine the immense influence they would have over shipping lines even if they themselves never bought or operated a single spacecraft.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
Right! Large cargo aircraft land in Anchorage from Tokyo but they don't fly into towns of 5,000 1,000 miles from Anchorage. Those routes are small prop planes domain.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
So, what major global shipping lines to they own and operate?
Hyundai for one operates Hyundai Glovis and holds significant stakes in HMM (formerly Hyundai Merchant Marine).
The names sort of give it away. Hyundai also heavily invests (through its financing and investment branch) in THE Alliance shipping.
Samsung has heavy investments and involvements in Sinokor and SM.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
Glovis doesn't operate cargo ships. The parent company of HMM is Korea Development Bank. Hyundai is simply a shareholder in HMM like dozens of other companies. It doesn't operate or direct it.
So, the answer to my question of, "So, what major global shipping lines to they own and operate?" is, None.
Hyundai Glovis has 60 RoRos and 36 bulk carriers on 13 lines according to their Korean website. They specialise mostly in rolling freight (which I think means cars and trucks).
As an aside (which ties into vertical integration) the 400 Kia LAVs the Poles bought before they decided on domestic production under liscence were transported on Hyundai Glovis vessels.
KDB exists entirely to bailout chaebols. Like most In HMMs case they did a debt for equity swap.
As for how much control Hyundai maintains, the ceo is Kim Kyung-bae a 40year Hyundai man. Only 29% of HMM is owned by KDB, another 29% is owned by KOBC which is one of those joint government/chaebol quangos that are all over Korea (my government benefit scheme is provided by a Hyundai and Shinsengae joint investment scheme.) 42% is owned by other shareholders of which the Chung family own the majority.
I’m not following what this is in response to.
The original post in this thread...?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Easiest way without interfering with player agency is, diminishing returns.
When I first ran 2300, I was surprised just how many ships it had floating around...
I prefer a mid ship and rare ships universe, putting peak size at 20kTd...at TL 15.
| TL | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 |
| Td | 20 | 50 | 100 | 200 | 500 | 1000 | 2000 | 5000 | 10,000 | 20,000 |
Actually, I generally set performance guidelines rather than ship sizes...
1g- slow unstreamlined commercial ships
2g- for streamlined ships.
3/4g for most military ships
With jump generally limited to 3, with 2 being the runaway average.
Generally patrol ships are in the 400 to 800 tons range and cruisers 800 to 1600 tons or so. With ships of the line being larger than that.
Merchant men trend towards the 1000 ton range as a average.
Now my games trend closer to the Age of Sail in terms of Ship Traffic and the like. Consider the London docks received something 150+ ships per day in that broad timeframe. Related, I tend to use many more secondary worlds and the like so there are more places to go in my games.
