Revising the expanded CharGen System

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education, though, not street skills (Streetwise for that). At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'". So, it's a waif that spent nights in the library, a guy with a PhD, someone with lots of training time in the military, etc.

As Bill likes to say: It's YTU. Have fun.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education, though, not street skills (Streetwise for that). At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'". So, it's a waif that spent nights in the library, a guy with a PhD, someone with lots of training time in the military, etc.

As Bill likes to say: It's YTU. Have fun.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education, though, not street skills (Streetwise for that). At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'".

I disagree.

SOC levels correspond to actual social level in socieity.

But, EDU is more a measure of how well a character can implement and act on what he knows. EDU-B doesn't necessarily mean (and usually doesn't mean) that a character has a PhD in some subject.

SOC-B, on the other hand, does mean the character is a knight.

If EDU-B meant that a character has a PhD in something, then there would be a lot of PhD's running around in the CT universe (and I bet a lot of them failed to make the rolls to enter and succeed in college!).

If a beginning character is rolled up, and a 12 is rolled on the original 2D throw for SOC, this means the character was born into the title of Baron. He inherited it (as opposed to getting his SOC raised to 12 later, through chargen, earning the noble title later in life).

But, if a beginning character is rolled up, and a 12 is thrown for EDU, this doesn't mean that the character was born with a PhD.

What this means is that the character is very, very good at applying the things he knows. He's good at taking the things he's learned and successfully applying them to his benefit in life (there are a lot of "book smart" people out there who aren't good at applying what they've learned ... so, you can have a Traveller character, with a PhD, but EDU-4).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education, though, not street skills (Streetwise for that). At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'".

I disagree.

SOC levels correspond to actual social level in socieity.

But, EDU is more a measure of how well a character can implement and act on what he knows. EDU-B doesn't necessarily mean (and usually doesn't mean) that a character has a PhD in some subject.

SOC-B, on the other hand, does mean the character is a knight.

If EDU-B meant that a character has a PhD in something, then there would be a lot of PhD's running around in the CT universe (and I bet a lot of them failed to make the rolls to enter and succeed in college!).

If a beginning character is rolled up, and a 12 is rolled on the original 2D throw for SOC, this means the character was born into the title of Baron. He inherited it (as opposed to getting his SOC raised to 12 later, through chargen, earning the noble title later in life).

But, if a beginning character is rolled up, and a 12 is thrown for EDU, this doesn't mean that the character was born with a PhD.

What this means is that the character is very, very good at applying the things he knows. He's good at taking the things he's learned and successfully applying them to his benefit in life (there are a lot of "book smart" people out there who aren't good at applying what they've learned ... so, you can have a Traveller character, with a PhD, but EDU-4).

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education, though, not street skills (Streetwise for that). At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'". So, it's a waif that spent nights in the library, a guy with a PhD, someone with lots of training time in the military, etc.

I see EDU as a unified equivalent for what other RPGs (such as Shadowrun) call "Knowledge Skills" - the theoretical knowledge of things, going from purely academic subjects (Biology, Mathematics, Physics etc) through technical subjects (equivalent to how much you remember of the user's/technician's manual of equipment) to street knowledge (theoretical knowledge of how a criminal underworld works). Also, remember that if you're smart and opportunist enough (and usually become the "apparentice" of a "professional"), you could learn academic-equivalent knowledge on the street (e.g. chemistry from the drug or bomb industry, or technical knowledge from hacking/lockpicking).

Anyway, I think that a character's amount of zero-level skills should be based on his EDU ("gemeral knowledge") rather than on SOC (connections in the "high places").

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education, though, not street skills (Streetwise for that). At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'". So, it's a waif that spent nights in the library, a guy with a PhD, someone with lots of training time in the military, etc.

I see EDU as a unified equivalent for what other RPGs (such as Shadowrun) call "Knowledge Skills" - the theoretical knowledge of things, going from purely academic subjects (Biology, Mathematics, Physics etc) through technical subjects (equivalent to how much you remember of the user's/technician's manual of equipment) to street knowledge (theoretical knowledge of how a criminal underworld works). Also, remember that if you're smart and opportunist enough (and usually become the "apparentice" of a "professional"), you could learn academic-equivalent knowledge on the street (e.g. chemistry from the drug or bomb industry, or technical knowledge from hacking/lockpicking).

Anyway, I think that a character's amount of zero-level skills should be based on his EDU ("gemeral knowledge") rather than on SOC (connections in the "high places").

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Anyway, I think that a character's amount of zero-level skills should be based on his EDU ("gemeral knowledge") rather than on SOC (connections in the "high places").

I agree.

In my expanded chargen example (that you're hosting!

), I use a roll of EDU or less on 2D for number of Background skills a character gets.

He gets a number of background skills (skills learned prior to age 18) equal to the difference between his roll and his EDU score. Rolling over EDU means no Background skills.

And, for Background skills, I suggest that they start at Level-0 and increase +1 Level each time the same Background skill is rolled.

What characters end up with in my game, typically, is a few Level-0 skills and maybe one or two Level-1 skills.

Then, of course, I add the Fifth Table to a character's choice of tables during his career, and the Fifth Table contains skills appropriate to that character's homeworld (homeworld based rather than career based). Those skills, like skills duirng career, are gained normally starting at Level-1.

A character has to "give up" a career skill in order to roll on the Fifth Table, and the Fifth Table can only be address once per term.

Anybody interested in this just needs to click on the link in my sig, and they'll have the full write-up at their finger tips.

One of the problems I have with awarding Background skills is that they tend to over-award skills (from a CT standpoint), should you get those background skills plus all the ones a character gets during his career (especially if you use, like I do, the two MT rules for Special Duty and Extra skills to keep basic chargen characters compatible with advanced chargen characters).

That's why I start Background skills at level-0 (and the fact that it makes sense that a pre-18 year old kid will not have too much experience in Traveller terms).

Using my background rule, characters are awarded some background skills (they roll on a chart -- skills aren't automatic), but usually, they will only be at Level-0.

Keeps the game balanced.

Click link below to see the details.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Anyway, I think that a character's amount of zero-level skills should be based on his EDU ("gemeral knowledge") rather than on SOC (connections in the "high places").

I agree.

In my expanded chargen example (that you're hosting!

), I use a roll of EDU or less on 2D for number of Background skills a character gets.

He gets a number of background skills (skills learned prior to age 18) equal to the difference between his roll and his EDU score. Rolling over EDU means no Background skills.

And, for Background skills, I suggest that they start at Level-0 and increase +1 Level each time the same Background skill is rolled.

What characters end up with in my game, typically, is a few Level-0 skills and maybe one or two Level-1 skills.

Then, of course, I add the Fifth Table to a character's choice of tables during his career, and the Fifth Table contains skills appropriate to that character's homeworld (homeworld based rather than career based). Those skills, like skills duirng career, are gained normally starting at Level-1.

A character has to "give up" a career skill in order to roll on the Fifth Table, and the Fifth Table can only be address once per term.

Anybody interested in this just needs to click on the link in my sig, and they'll have the full write-up at their finger tips.

One of the problems I have with awarding Background skills is that they tend to over-award skills (from a CT standpoint), should you get those background skills plus all the ones a character gets during his career (especially if you use, like I do, the two MT rules for Special Duty and Extra skills to keep basic chargen characters compatible with advanced chargen characters).

That's why I start Background skills at level-0 (and the fact that it makes sense that a pre-18 year old kid will not have too much experience in Traveller terms).

Using my background rule, characters are awarded some background skills (they roll on a chart -- skills aren't automatic), but usually, they will only be at Level-0.

Keeps the game balanced.

Click link below to see the details.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education... At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'".

I disagree.

...EDU is more a measure of how well a character can implement and act on what he knows. EDU-B doesn't necessarily mean (and usually doesn't mean) that a character has a PhD in some subject.

If EDU-B meant that a character has a PhD in something, then there would be a lot of PhD's running around in the CT universe (and I bet a lot of them failed to make the rolls to enter and succeed in college!).

But, if a beginning character is rolled up, and a 12 is thrown for EDU, this doesn't mean that the character was born with a PhD.

What this means is that the character is very, very good at applying the things he knows. He's good at taking the things he's learned and successfully applying them to his benefit in life (there are a lot of "book smart" people out there who aren't good at applying what they've learned ... so, you can have a Traveller character, with a PhD, but EDU-4). </font>[/QUOTE]That's all fine with the usual MTU stamp but Fritz does indeed have it right by the book.

A roll of B when generating a character in CT is indeed a highly educated individual. Book 1 pg.8 "Education indicates the highest level of schooling attained."

Presuming the average roll of Edu 7 is high school completion (which seems reasonable) an Edu B is going to be pretty high. PhD high does seem about right.

No you're not born with a PhD, but you are 18 years old when generated and there are 18 year old PhDs.

In CT a high Edu roll does mean the character has gotten a formal education (made those rolls to enter and succeed in college) and yes there are a lot of them. Does it seem so strange that the future gets education right? Besides there are lots of drop-outs and disadvantaged people too (any Edu roll less than 7).

Application of knowledge is not Edu. It's more the skill level and roll. Your book smart but poor application example should apply to someone with a high Edu and low skill set, not a low Edu and PhD. In CT you can NOT have a Traveller character with a PhD and EDU-4.

Again, this is just for clarity, what works for YTU is fine for YTU but the rules are clear, Edu IS formal education.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, 2-4601, EDU really does represent education... At least in CT. It doesn't have to be in-school learning, but it is normally "book-larnin'".

I disagree.

...EDU is more a measure of how well a character can implement and act on what he knows. EDU-B doesn't necessarily mean (and usually doesn't mean) that a character has a PhD in some subject.

If EDU-B meant that a character has a PhD in something, then there would be a lot of PhD's running around in the CT universe (and I bet a lot of them failed to make the rolls to enter and succeed in college!).

But, if a beginning character is rolled up, and a 12 is thrown for EDU, this doesn't mean that the character was born with a PhD.

What this means is that the character is very, very good at applying the things he knows. He's good at taking the things he's learned and successfully applying them to his benefit in life (there are a lot of "book smart" people out there who aren't good at applying what they've learned ... so, you can have a Traveller character, with a PhD, but EDU-4). </font>[/QUOTE]That's all fine with the usual MTU stamp but Fritz does indeed have it right by the book.

A roll of B when generating a character in CT is indeed a highly educated individual. Book 1 pg.8 "Education indicates the highest level of schooling attained."

Presuming the average roll of Edu 7 is high school completion (which seems reasonable) an Edu B is going to be pretty high. PhD high does seem about right.

No you're not born with a PhD, but you are 18 years old when generated and there are 18 year old PhDs.

In CT a high Edu roll does mean the character has gotten a formal education (made those rolls to enter and succeed in college) and yes there are a lot of them. Does it seem so strange that the future gets education right? Besides there are lots of drop-outs and disadvantaged people too (any Edu roll less than 7).

Application of knowledge is not Edu. It's more the skill level and roll. Your book smart but poor application example should apply to someone with a high Edu and low skill set, not a low Edu and PhD. In CT you can NOT have a Traveller character with a PhD and EDU-4.

Again, this is just for clarity, what works for YTU is fine for YTU but the rules are clear, Edu IS formal education.

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by far-trader:

In CT a high Edu roll does mean the character has gotten a formal education (made those rolls to enter and succeed in college) and yes there are a lot of them. Does it seem so strange that the future gets education right? Besides there are lots of drop-outs and disadvantaged people too (any Edu roll less than 7).

I'd have to disagree with a natural high EDU roll representing coming out with a college degree at 18 as per the rules, at least if you want to reconcile with the pre-enlistment college rules of LBB5. Education is referred to as the highest level of schooling obtained but I saw no reference to degrees or formal college-level training in LBB1-3. In LBB5, higher EDU gives higher chances of admission/honors for college and medical school. Higher EDU could be considered the equivalent of high school advanced placement / accelerated learning courses.

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by far-trader:

In CT a high Edu roll does mean the character has gotten a formal education (made those rolls to enter and succeed in college) and yes there are a lot of them. Does it seem so strange that the future gets education right? Besides there are lots of drop-outs and disadvantaged people too (any Edu roll less than 7).

I'd have to disagree with a natural high EDU roll representing coming out with a college degree at 18 as per the rules, at least if you want to reconcile with the pre-enlistment college rules of LBB5. Education is referred to as the highest level of schooling obtained but I saw no reference to degrees or formal college-level training in LBB1-3. In LBB5, higher EDU gives higher chances of admission/honors for college and medical school. Higher EDU could be considered the equivalent of high school advanced placement / accelerated learning courses.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by MaineCoon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:

In CT a high Edu roll does mean the character has gotten a formal education (made those rolls to enter and succeed in college) and yes there are a lot of them. Does it seem so strange that the future gets education right? Besides there are lots of drop-outs and disadvantaged people too (any Edu roll less than 7).

I'd have to disagree with a natural high EDU roll representing coming out with a college degree at 18 as per the rules, at least if you want to reconcile with the pre-enlistment college rules of LBB5. Education is referred to as the highest level of schooling obtained but I saw no reference to degrees or formal college-level training in LBB1-3. In LBB5, higher EDU gives higher chances of admission/honors for college and medical school. Higher EDU could be considered the equivalent of high school advanced placement / accelerated learning courses. </font>[/QUOTE]True enough, my statement is for what I call CT, just the basics of LBBs 1-3 and only true for that. Later LBBs, still technically CT but in my mind CT Expanded, introduced a lot of issues that tended to invalidate parts of earlier publications. It's a mess that MT tried to fix with less than stellar results.

As for your specfic note you're right, as I said. In fact CT doesn't actually set the level of education to any specific Edu score, it just says "Education (the score) indicates the highest level of schooling attained." We have to remember that it was left to the ref to fill in based on what's in LBBs 1-3 which don't include formal education options.

For Book 1 I think the best translation of that is to take the average (Edu 7) to be equal to a High School diploma and the highest allowed roll (Edu 12) should probably be some level of College education, a doctoral degree doesn't seem unreasonable. In career generation you can exceed Edu 12 and that is where it's tough to call. Would that be more degrees? Or just a higher level of expertise? I'd vote for the second.

Now when we get into the expanded character generation you have to wonder, if a college degree is Edu 12 then anyone graduating should have their Edu bumped to 12 and anyone with 12 or more shouldn't be bothering to attend but be automatically granted the benefits, such as an automatic commission. But instead you can have primary school drop-outs with an Edu 4 (again, just my own guess for the value) attending college and graduating with honours to a sum total of Edu 5 and getting a commission and going on to medical school. Meanwhile that Edu 12 can fail the college track and have to enter the service normally. That makes no sense what so ever. I want my Doctor to be highly educated. At least some later editions of the rules treat college a little more sensibly.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by MaineCoon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:

In CT a high Edu roll does mean the character has gotten a formal education (made those rolls to enter and succeed in college) and yes there are a lot of them. Does it seem so strange that the future gets education right? Besides there are lots of drop-outs and disadvantaged people too (any Edu roll less than 7).

I'd have to disagree with a natural high EDU roll representing coming out with a college degree at 18 as per the rules, at least if you want to reconcile with the pre-enlistment college rules of LBB5. Education is referred to as the highest level of schooling obtained but I saw no reference to degrees or formal college-level training in LBB1-3. In LBB5, higher EDU gives higher chances of admission/honors for college and medical school. Higher EDU could be considered the equivalent of high school advanced placement / accelerated learning courses. </font>[/QUOTE]True enough, my statement is for what I call CT, just the basics of LBBs 1-3 and only true for that. Later LBBs, still technically CT but in my mind CT Expanded, introduced a lot of issues that tended to invalidate parts of earlier publications. It's a mess that MT tried to fix with less than stellar results.

As for your specfic note you're right, as I said. In fact CT doesn't actually set the level of education to any specific Edu score, it just says "Education (the score) indicates the highest level of schooling attained." We have to remember that it was left to the ref to fill in based on what's in LBBs 1-3 which don't include formal education options.

For Book 1 I think the best translation of that is to take the average (Edu 7) to be equal to a High School diploma and the highest allowed roll (Edu 12) should probably be some level of College education, a doctoral degree doesn't seem unreasonable. In career generation you can exceed Edu 12 and that is where it's tough to call. Would that be more degrees? Or just a higher level of expertise? I'd vote for the second.

Now when we get into the expanded character generation you have to wonder, if a college degree is Edu 12 then anyone graduating should have their Edu bumped to 12 and anyone with 12 or more shouldn't be bothering to attend but be automatically granted the benefits, such as an automatic commission. But instead you can have primary school drop-outs with an Edu 4 (again, just my own guess for the value) attending college and graduating with honours to a sum total of Edu 5 and getting a commission and going on to medical school. Meanwhile that Edu 12 can fail the college track and have to enter the service normally. That makes no sense what so ever. I want my Doctor to be highly educated. At least some later editions of the rules treat college a little more sensibly.

 

[mike wightman]

I ignored the college option from High Guard+, instead I allow a character to attend college the way it's done in the experience chapter.

Take four years and get a skill at level 2. It costs them a mustering out roll to do this. Their college time can be described in any way the player and referee decide.

I also allow a character to increase their EDU to be level with their INT while at college.

 

[mike wightman]

I ignored the college option from High Guard+, instead I allow a character to attend college the way it's done in the experience chapter.

Take four years and get a skill at level 2. It costs them a mustering out roll to do this. Their college time can be described in any way the player and referee decide.

I also allow a character to increase their EDU to be level with their INT while at college.

 

[Eduardo]

I see valid points on both sides. There are a lot of self educated people out there, and this is/was especially true in the days previous to the VN war and a Jr. College popping up on every corner here in the U.S.,it seems, and universities and colleges getting huge expansion grants such that virtually any idiot can get in a college, and many frequently graduate with Ph.D's. I've worked in Silly Con Valley with engineers that were barely literate when it came to reading and spelling.

I had a great uncle who was a self-educated man in both business and 'liberal arts', for lack of a better description. He owned the first Ford dealership in his little county, along with running the town drug store and soda fountain. He also had a library larger than the nearest college's, and maintained subscriptions to dozens of academic journals, newpapers, National Geographic, literary magazines, etc.

He dropped out of school in the 8th grade and moved here from Hope, Arkansas, and was probably the most educated and broadly read man I ever met. He managed to send several of the family to college by himself. We owe him a lot for our starts in life, just from what he did for our grandparents and parents alone, especially during the Depression.

The pre-1950's and 60's U.S. was a place where college attendance was for the rich, with very few scholarships for the 'deserving poor'; the latter includes about 80% of the population, though the GI Bills sent a lot of the WW II vets and such to college. As I siad previously, it's nothing to go to college now, and not much effort is required to pass at most institutions.

Just one example, but, frankly, I met more half-wits in college than I ever did working summers at construction and driving a truck. I met even more half-wits when I graduated and moved to the Bay Area, all be it they certainly didn't lack 'high self-esteem', which seems to be the main goal of 'education' these days of massive grade inflation and social promotion. An 8th grade education pre-1960's is easily the equivalent of a t least sophomore level college of today, and in cases where they had an interest in reading and self-improvement, many would easily match a BA and MA with no strain.

High education levels are nearly always a result of self-education, not academic achievement in my TU, just as it is in real life. Screw the 'canon', at least in areas where the rule is not very accurate. There are several rewrites of college and education skills out there that work great. The TNE version is fairly good, and some guy whose link I no Longer have worked out degrees by major that work as well.

I will point out George W. Bush, functional illiterate and Party Boy, went to Andover, has two degrees from supposedly 'high level' universities that everybody thinks are 'prestigious'. this is the guy who couldn't make it past the 7th grade in Lubbock, the 8th grade at a Methodist private school in Houston, and even after 'graduating' from Andover Prep couldn't get accepted into the U Of Texas, a party school not known for exceptional standards ...

 

[Eduardo]

I see valid points on both sides. There are a lot of self educated people out there, and this is/was especially true in the days previous to the VN war and a Jr. College popping up on every corner here in the U.S.,it seems, and universities and colleges getting huge expansion grants such that virtually any idiot can get in a college, and many frequently graduate with Ph.D's. I've worked in Silly Con Valley with engineers that were barely literate when it came to reading and spelling.

I had a great uncle who was a self-educated man in both business and 'liberal arts', for lack of a better description. He owned the first Ford dealership in his little county, along with running the town drug store and soda fountain. He also had a library larger than the nearest college's, and maintained subscriptions to dozens of academic journals, newpapers, National Geographic, literary magazines, etc.

He dropped out of school in the 8th grade and moved here from Hope, Arkansas, and was probably the most educated and broadly read man I ever met. He managed to send several of the family to college by himself. We owe him a lot for our starts in life, just from what he did for our grandparents and parents alone, especially during the Depression.

The pre-1950's and 60's U.S. was a place where college attendance was for the rich, with very few scholarships for the 'deserving poor'; the latter includes about 80% of the population, though the GI Bills sent a lot of the WW II vets and such to college. As I siad previously, it's nothing to go to college now, and not much effort is required to pass at most institutions.

Just one example, but, frankly, I met more half-wits in college than I ever did working summers at construction and driving a truck. I met even more half-wits when I graduated and moved to the Bay Area, all be it they certainly didn't lack 'high self-esteem', which seems to be the main goal of 'education' these days of massive grade inflation and social promotion. An 8th grade education pre-1960's is easily the equivalent of a t least sophomore level college of today, and in cases where they had an interest in reading and self-improvement, many would easily match a BA and MA with no strain.

High education levels are nearly always a result of self-education, not academic achievement in my TU, just as it is in real life. Screw the 'canon', at least in areas where the rule is not very accurate. There are several rewrites of college and education skills out there that work great. The TNE version is fairly good, and some guy whose link I no Longer have worked out degrees by major that work as well.

I will point out George W. Bush, functional illiterate and Party Boy, went to Andover, has two degrees from supposedly 'high level' universities that everybody thinks are 'prestigious'. this is the guy who couldn't make it past the 7th grade in Lubbock, the 8th grade at a Methodist private school in Houston, and even after 'graduating' from Andover Prep couldn't get accepted into the U Of Texas, a party school not known for exceptional standards ...

 

[Golan2072]

I currently have a 'beta version' of my Army CharGen system which I'm now testing (i.e. generating characters). The Army CharGen page will be posted in PDF format later next week.

So far I've found two problems in the chargen system:
1) Using the CT-LBB1 Re-Enlistmenmt number (7+) results in VERY short Army careers, usually one or two terms. I was thinking of changing it to 6+ or 5+ or adding a DM in order to allow for more variance in career length.
2) Using the numbers from CT-LBB4, it is very difficult for Enlisted men to become officers, except from through the Military Academy (and even there the chances for both admission and success are quite slim); I'd probably increase the chances for OCS a little bit to allow a slightly larger chance for becoming officers.

 

[Golan2072]

I currently have a 'beta version' of my Army CharGen system which I'm now testing (i.e. generating characters). The Army CharGen page will be posted in PDF format later next week.

So far I've found two problems in the chargen system:
1) Using the CT-LBB1 Re-Enlistmenmt number (7+) results in VERY short Army careers, usually one or two terms. I was thinking of changing it to 6+ or 5+ or adding a DM in order to allow for more variance in career length.
2) Using the numbers from CT-LBB4, it is very difficult for Enlisted men to become officers, except from through the Military Academy (and even there the chances for both admission and success are quite slim); I'd probably increase the chances for OCS a little bit to allow a slightly larger chance for becoming officers.