Robots and Synthetics in the Third Imperium

[rancke]

Initial capital expenditure. Why don't all of us living in appropriate areas have solar panels on our roofs to cut down on our electricity costs? Well, besides Aramis, who would have to clear a little snow off his too often for ease. Why don't all 1st world nations institute massive wind power schemes now? Who has the money for them just floating around with those things being the highest priority?

Exactly. So who paid for all those robots? But, as I said, that could perhaps be explained.

The argument that human power is cheaper is a valid one on a world where birth rates are high and the government(s) may not spend a lot on education or health. Human life, we know from this world, can be cheap.

But there argument (I think it was Carlobrando who brought it up) is that robots are also cheaper on worlds with lots of humans. Traveller has some standard salaries and some standard robot prices, and apparently a robot is cheaper than paying those salaries to a human.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

But there argument (I think it was Carlobrando who brought it up) is that robots are also cheaper on worlds with lots of humans. Traveller has some standard salaries and some standard robot prices, and apparently a robot is cheaper than paying those salaries to a human.

Hans

Precisely, so that if the expansion of automation was deliberate but not precipitous then there wouldn't be future shock as such. A lot could come down to the TL of the world in question, with there being a tipping point somewhere in the 9-11 range.

Again, I think that there wouldn't necessarily be a population of anthropomorphised automatons (recall the poorly imagined "I Robot" with Will Smith) but more subtely and precisely populated by specialist devices made for particular purposes. Precision is also more likely to be cheaper, at least for individual units, and up until a certain point of combining a range of tasks.

 

[rancke]

Again, I think that there wouldn't necessarily be a population of anthropomorphised automatons (recall the poorly imagined "I Robot" with Will Smith) but more subtely and precisely populated by specialist devices made for particular purposes. Precision is also more likely to be cheaper, at least for individual units, and up until a certain point of combining a range of tasks.

Not necessarily anthropomorphised (although there have been some of those too), but the sort of autonomous mechanical constructs designed by the robot rules. Like the ones we seen in Research Station Gamma.

Even though the tools with robot brains allow incompetent humans to perform like competent humans, they do at least require a human to operate them. The AMCs (autonomous mechanical constructs) do not.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Initial capital expenditure. Why don't all of us living in appropriate areas have solar panels on our roofs to cut down on our electricity costs? Well, besides Aramis, who would have to clear a little snow off his too often for ease. Why don't all 1st world nations institute massive wind power schemes now? Who has the money for them just floating around with those things being the highest priority?

The argument that human power is cheaper is a valid one on a world where birth rates are high and the government(s) may not spend a lot on education or health. Human life, we know from this world, can be cheap.

Really, the issue for automation is four fold -

1) Must have the capital up front.
2) must have a stable labor need
3) must not be barred by the government.
4) must have adequate tech for the types of Robots to do the needed tasks

If you lack the capital, you have to secure investors or financing. Not a unique situation, but in the case of Robots, that capital is several years' pay worth for human workers... Human workers who can be paid in convenient monthly installments as the money comes in.

Must have a stable need...
...as in, long term need.
... as in, limited range of tasks
... as in, limited fluctuation of volume.
For short term, it's cheaper to pay people than to buy robots. Especially for industrial automation, even renting the robots may have significant installation costs. Note that temp workers are often cheaper, even after training time, than installing a robot.
More flexible robots are more expensive. A fixed location tool arm with a 2-ton load is a lousy housekeeping robot... but an excellent factory floor job. A roomba is useless for manufacturing, but may be of use in cleaning up the factory floor. You have to buy the correct types of Robots for the work.
And, robots are most useful when the demand for the product or service is fairly stable. Unused capacity is a waste; you don't want more surplus than your maintenance regime requires. As in, if you can meet your minimium demand during maintenance by taking only one line off production, you don't want 2 lines above your routine need. Ideally, your doing maintenance loss of capacity is just a bit more than your difference between peak and median demand, and leaves enough time to do the maintenance.

The Real World has issues in many places with "Workers' Rights" - as in, people have a right to a job, so employers don't have a right to automate for reduction of the workforce. The biggest impediment to automation is government protection of jobs.

And of course, if the robots aren't able to do the tasks (such as creative content), then replacing people isn't going to happen.

As for solar in Alaska - in the summer, it works fine. In the summer, we don't NEED it. In the winter, there's not enough time with light for them to be worth clearing.

 

[rancke]

Really, the issue for automation is four fold -

1) Must have the capital up front.
2) must have a stable labor need
3) must not be barred by the government.
4) must have adequate tech for the types of Robots to do the needed tasks

If you lack the capital, you have to secure investors or financing. Not a unique situation, but in the case of Robots, that capital is several years' pay worth for human workers... Human workers who can be paid in convenient monthly installments as the money comes in.

In Ancient Rome (when the market wasn't flooded by war captives), work slaves cost about two years' salary to a free man with the same skill set.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

In Ancient Rome (when the market wasn't flooded by war captives), work slaves cost about two years' salary to a free man with the same skill set.


Hans

That's a good point. A relatively simple bot runs about a year's salary for the average joe plus another 300 to 400 a month after that. A reasonably bright TL12-13 bot could run close to twice that. That'd balk anyone who couldn't hire a human in the first place, but it probably won't balk the doctor or the lawyer or the businessman, and it certainly wouldn't balk Wal-Mart. At the projected prices, bots should be almost as common as slaves in Ancient Rome or the antebellum South - and they're not.

There being no shortage of need for labor, that leaves government laws and tech levels as possible constraints - and I would add cultural considerations.

We've seen that there's some odd reason tech isn't flowing from higher tech worlds to lower tech worlds like rain from Heaven. We've debated the reasons, never quite came up with something satisfactory, but there were some good possibilities - limited production capacity and devalued local currency being high on the list. Bots are likely included in the, "Great Sorta-Mystery of Why Everyone Just Doesn't Buy Everything From Rhylanor," bit.

In the Spinward Marches - I can do other sectors now, but I'm comfortable in the Marches and a lot of the adventures are based there - only 42 of 442 worlds are TL12 or above. Populationwise the picture's a little better, because some of those high-tech worlds are pretty densely populated, but still 2/3 of the Marches population lives at TL11 or lower.

So, if you're jaunting around at random in your Type A, about 9 in 10 of your stops are at worlds where bots, if they exist, are expensive imports that have to be shipped back to their production world once a year for maintenance - unless someone with skill in robotics decided to emigrate to a lower tech world. They aren't a normal part of that world's economy or culture. Grabbing Striker (Ooooh, heresy! But I don't have T5 yet.), the TL11 world has to pay a 16.67% markup on the robot price, and it only gets worse from there.

Government laws aren't needed where bots are imported toys for the well-to-do. With only 42 worlds on which bots might be common, that alone might be enough to justify their relative rarity. Still, it's the people with money and a bit of influence who can afford the passages, not to mention they're more likely to be patrons, and local government laws don't tend to be designed to stop the wealthy and influential from enjoying their wealth - and wouldn't where Imperial jurisdiction holds sway. We'd expect to see the occasional robot among our customers as we travel from star to star.

That leaves culture. With only 42 TL12+ worlds, we already have a reason why we don't see cargo bots and clerk bots at every starport - the magical golems only walk in the lands where the wizards reign. For the rest, we might surmise that the well-to-do - who generally have no lack of spare cash - would rather pay more for a real flesh-and-blood servant, that they either are put off by soulless automata or consider them to be the affectations of someone who hasn't actually quite made the cut. In other words, robots - being cheaper than people - are evidence of low status. If you see someone with a robot, he or she is either a "wannabe" from some lower-tech world where they think such things are wondrous and expensive - and the true elite from those worlds would never make such a disastrous status faux pas - or he's some pitiable down-on-his-luck fellow who's having to cut back on his expenses to make ends meet.

And the same would apply to the liners. If word gets out that the ship's steward is a bot, that's a mark of a lower class budget operation. If a captain cuts corners there then who knows where else he's cutting corners, and the fares will steer toward the ship that offers human service.

 

[rancke]

We've seen that there's some odd reason tech isn't flowing from higher tech worlds to lower tech worlds like rain from Heaven. We've debated the reasons, never quite came up with something satisfactory, but there were some good possibilities - limited production capacity and devalued local currency being high on the list. Bots are likely included in the, "Great Sorta-Mystery of Why Everyone Just Doesn't Buy Everything From Rhylanor," bit.

It's not that big a mystery. If you live on a world like Earth with a TL of 7 and a Class C starport (I'm taking the liberty of assuming that if Earth was a member of an interstellar culture, it could provide the services of a Class C starport), the credits you earn is worth 0.10 Rhylanorian credits. So take all those prices and multiply them by ten. For a TL5 world with a Class E starport multiply by 100. People on the mid-tech worlds just can't afford to buy every everyday need from Rhylanor. Whatever interstellar credits such a world earns would go to select items for the planetary elite and the military.

And the same would apply to the liners. If word gets out that the ship's steward is a bot, that's a mark of a lower class budget operation. If a captain cuts corners there then who knows where else he's cutting corners, and the fares will steer toward the ship that offers human service.

But it wouldn't apply to freighters. Not only is a robot crewman cheaper than paying salaries to humans, evey jump you save Cr2000 in life support AND, if the ship is designed for robot crew, have an extra 4dT to carry freight. At 25 jumps per year, we're talking a difference of Cr150,000 in operating expenses and revenue (per robot), and that's without calculating how much you save on the salary. With that sort of savings many freighter owners would be willing to suffer a bit of reputation loss.

And as for liners, one with a robot crew could offer a discount on the fares and attract customers who care more for the price than how classy the ride is.


Hans

 

[Sir Brad]

Heck I've run a Merchant who has a Robo-Seward, Robo-Drive Hand and a Robo-Co-Pilot on a Type R2 (jump 2 fat trader). the Capitan acted as the Pilot and Purser, she had a Medic/Seward and a Engineer on the payroll, this freed up staterooms for a couple of Security/Gunners.

 

[Ackehece]

For those that are wondering about robots and the OTU, why they don't take all the jobs - Stating up a bot in T5 is not cheap nor is it efficent.
So let us create an everyman in OTU - 777777 and he makes one credit of value at 1/4 hour of labour. In the OTU that means that a average person makes about 8300 credits a year

Now:
The cheapest (of all) brains used for a bot runs C4*5 Kcr - so even a stupid bot...at C4 =1 is 5kcr for just the processor
To add any sensors (RGB?) ... another 10Kcr before (for just one band... add multiple bands... multiply that value by number of bands chosen)
already over 2 years of wages (for a dumb bot that can't move and can't even do tasks.
Now we add a skeleton to build it around...
cheapest we can go with is lightweight skeleton (one of several types) at 10Kcr
Movement (for strength to manipulate and move)- 10Kcr
A Manipulator (gripper cheapest) 5Kcr
Standard covering material 1kcr
Education (so it can learn a skill) 10Kcr (grants 2 edu)
want it to network? work with outside orders etc? add 2Kcr per
Power Supply all are regardless of rating 10Kcr

so basic cost... without extras is 61Kcr
61,000! Credits... and the average human wage (assuming a terran year and work week) is 8300ish)
so many years to amortize a dummy bot.

a human would be be more effective even without skills at most if not all jobs (assuming 777777 vs the robot 44412R)
skills is another matter:
C4+C5 is max skills and levels a bot can learn - so 3skills and since max level for primary skill is 1/2 C4 that would be .5 Round to 1... so primary level 1
2 secondary skills at 1/4 C4 would round to 0 so two zero level secondary skills

Robots are not replacing Humans in the T5 OTU any time soon...
o:

 

[rancke]

For those that are wondering about robots and the OTU, why they don't take all the jobs - Stating up a bot in T5 is not cheap nor is it efficent.

I'm not familiar with any of the robot design systems. In the past, I've taken the word of people who said they knew the system that robots were cheaper than paying salaries. So that part I will leave to others to debate.

So let us create an everyman in OTU - 777777 and he makes one credit of value at 1/4 hour of labour. In the OTU that means that a average person makes about 8300 credits a year.

On a TL15 world with no trade modifiers, the per capita income is 22,000 credits.

so basic cost... without extras is 61Kcr

61,000! Credits... and the average human wage (assuming a terran year and work week) is 8300ish)

A starship pilot earns 48,000 credits per year and consumes another 12,000-24,000 (depending on what rules you use) in life support. That's the entire cost of a 60,000 credit robot paid in a year. Assuming the costs of slaves mentioned earlier are comparable, you can afford a robot worth 120,000 credits to replace that pilot.

And if you use his cabin to carry a Mid Passenger, you earn another 6,000 credits per jump or 150,000 credits per year.

so many years to amortize a dummy bot.

Apparently you have many years to amotize a robot; I understand that you can get decades-long loans on robot purchases.


Hans

 

[Ackehece]

I'm not familiar with any of the robot design systems. In the past, I've taken the word of people who said they knew the system that robots were cheaper than paying salaries. So that part I will leave to others to debate.


On a TL15 world with no trade modifiers, the per capita income is 22,000 credits.


A starship pilot earns 48,000 credits per year and consumes another 12,000-24,000 (depending on what rules you use) in life support. That's the entire cost of a 60,000 credit robot paid in a year. Assuming the costs of slaves mentioned earlier are comparable, you can afford a robot worth 120,000 credits to replace that pilot.

And if you use his cabin to carry a Mid Passenger, you earn another 6,000 credits per jump or 150,000 credits per year.


Apparently you have many years to amotize a robot; I understand that you can get decades-long loans on robot purchases.


Hans

T5 - 1Cr = 1/4hour work (pg48BBB - a citizen having served three terms can expect to earn a salary in the range of Cr750 per month
pg52BBB - Average Person Soc=7 Annual 8400 month 700 housing 210 meals 280 Support 105 leisure 105

I was comparing the absolutely cheapest bot that could be built with a worker. You definitely could not use this as a pilot (unless you want to die....)
so the average citizen (whom I was talking about) is way cheaper than a useless robot that rolls at best 2D<c+s (and add THIS IS HARD!) for 3D
where C=1 and S=1 - so it fails almost all the time except on the easiest of tasks (even cautious (2D )brings it done to a success rate of 3%)
normal roll would be 3D<1+1 ... so almost always a fail for the cheap version except when it can take the time to do it slow.

as with all things - if the world is rich and industrial incomes rise and there robots would replace workers on lines as the cost to maintain robots and the cost to maintain workers would cross at some point.
to have a truly useful bot in T5 you would be looking in the price range of 500,000cr and even on a Rich(+25%) industrial(+50%) world using a competent(21,000per/annum) skilled(skill level 3-5) worker you would
still be looking at a pay rate of ~40,000 so it would be in the range of 12.5 years to pay to replace the worker. A line worker would totally be replaced at that point. The average imperial world does not have those modifiers and the amortization period is drastically increased to replace skilled labour with bots. T5 does not appear to have a multiplier for TL for wages


oh and 1 final thing.... after a year of use a robot needs to roll flux vs intelligence add or subtract that value which could completely lobotimize your bot (out of warranty issue)

 

[Ulsyus]

Well, the discussion about robots has been broad and deep. I know I certainly have a much better picture of the extent of robot use in 3I and some other states, as well as what they'll look like and likely interact with others. For the record, my players in their modified Fat Trader have a 'bot assisting the Engineer plus a second one as the No. 2 gunner.

The Engineer, however, is a synthetic, something the players are yet to discover (they're too transfixed by the images I'm using for her at this point - Sung from Farscape)

Throughout all the discussion about robot workers replacing sophonts, there's been no mention of clones (okay, not in the original thread title). The B³ p120 provides some information on Guests. The description of Zognar's results, plus the use of clones by Naasirka, indicate that there are circumstances where clones would replace sophonts as a workforce. Where does it stop though? What are the times and places where we could expect to see clones rather than humans as the muscle in a workforce, rather than the rest of us, or possibly even robots?

 

[rancke]

T5 - 1Cr = 1/4hour work (pg48BBB - a citizen having served three terms can expect to earn a salary in the range of Cr750 per month

pg52BBB - Average Person Soc=7 Annual 8400 month 700 housing 210 meals 280 Support 105 leisure 105

That corresponds to someone living on a world with a TL of 8 (and no trade modifiers).

What does T5 have to say about salaries for starship crew? And life support? With the canonical figures we are talking paying for a Cr500,000 robot in 2.5 years.

to have a truly useful bot in T5 you would be looking in the price range of 500,000cr and even on a Rich(+25%) industrial(+50%) world using a competent(21,000per/annum) skilled(skill level 3-5) worker you would
still be looking at a pay rate of ~40,000 so it would be in the range of 12.5 years to pay to replace the worker.

Which is doable with a long enough loan.

oh and 1 final thing.... after a year of use a robot needs to roll flux vs intelligence add or subtract that value which could completely lobotimize your bot (out of warranty issue)

That would seem to solve the problem at the cost of making robots VERY hard to pay for. No long-term loans there.


Hans

 

[Ackehece]

That corresponds to someone living on a world with a TL of 8 (and no trade modifiers).

T5 BBB has no tech level modifier for salary (at least I can't find one)

What does T5 have to say about salaries for starship crew? And life support? With the canonical figures we are talking paying for a Cr500,000 robot in 2.5 years.
Which is doable with a long enough loan.

Pg52 T5 BBB
Independent Ship Crew Salaries
cr1000 X required skill level
so a Engineer would be done on his top ranking... so a chief-engineer PP 3 would get 3000cr per month (even with engineering 1)

I think you will find that in my last post I said

as with all things - if the world is rich and industrial incomes rise and there robots would replace workers on lines as the cost to maintain robots and the cost to maintain workers would cross at some point.

so I do agree that in certain situations that robots would replace humans

That would seem to solve the problem at the cost of making robots VERY hard to pay for. No long-term loans there.

Hans

Yeah it's a pretty brutal item to add to the rules. You can work around it by buying a robot that is at least 5 above the required int that you need.... for C4*20Kcr (nice to add another 100Kcr to the base cost to avoid having a lobotomized bot....)

I definitely could see a used market for brain damaged bots. A 3C4 2C5 bot could be used for basic tasks and that would be not that uncommon on a 1D C4 bot that rolls a moderate bad flux roll. easy task - would be C+S so basic skill target would be 1D<4
(1/2 edu for primary skill)

wonder what type of discount you could get on brain damaged bots? - sounds like adventure material to me... buying a load of brain damaged bots from the scrap yard to sell on lower tech worlds. lobotimized bots running around the ship after their container spills in the cargo hold... trying to fix your j-drive or serve you tea..... Jawas of Traveller:file_21:
*body would still be same value (less depreciation) but the brain would significantly lower the value of the bot.
*wonders about transplanting brain into new bot.... would it require a new flux roll?

 

[rancke]

T5 BBB has no tech level modifier for salary (at least I can't find one)

So someone living on a TL0 world has the same income and cost of living as someone living on a TL15 world? I think not. That has to be an inadvertent omission.

Yeah it's a pretty brutal item to add to the rules. You can work around it by buying a robot that is at least 5 above the required int that you need.... for C4*20Kcr (nice to add another 100Kcr to the base cost to avoid having a lobotomized bot....)

Thereby ensuring that the robot will survive for at least TWO years?

I don't like rules changes that make for big changes in the setting (Changes that fit the rules better to the setting are fine).

I could see something that made robots a bit more expensive and lowered their life expectancy considerable, so that 40 year loans are out of the question. Perhas a roll each year that might reduce Int by one.

I submit that it would be best to ignore the T5 rules on robots for the purposes of this thread. YMM, of course, V.


Hans

 

[Ackehece]

the idea I think is that a Credit is fixed as a value of work not a nebulous value that people ascribe to it. That way a 1/4 hour of work is a 1/4 of work for what it can buy... sure it may buy mutton on one world and processed food on another but a 1/4 of labour is a quarter hour of labour. Rents are basically the same percentage of salary as if food entertainment etc...
If cost of living was lower as a % of salary on low tech worlds then maybe the salaries would go up... but it is % based on hours worked (that is why the credit is defined as 1/4 hour of work)


As for mental deterioration it only applies after the first year for the flux roll.
after that their neural nets are supposed to be fixed and less likely to have flux issues.

and like it or not... T5 is now OTU

 

[Carlobrand]

...Throughout all the discussion about robot workers replacing sophonts, there's been no mention of clones (okay, not in the original thread title). The B³ p120 provides some information on Guests. The description of Zognar's results, plus the use of clones by Naasirka, indicate that there are circumstances where clones would replace sophonts as a workforce. Where does it stop though? What are the times and places where we could expect to see clones rather than humans as the muscle in a workforce, rather than the rest of us, or possibly even robots?

What is "The B³"?

Clones are people too. If you make yourself a twin brother, he's still your brother. If you fiddle with the genes a bit, he's still your cousin - most of you is in there. If you want to make him a dumb and pliant brother/cousin a la Brave New World - well, you're in Brave New World. Far Future law may yield to prejudice or financial considerations on the point, but it's still the point.

It's not that big a mystery. ...

Which is why it's only a sorta-mystery. Some folk get grumpy when I try to introduce Striker economic data.

...But it wouldn't apply to freighters. ...

Nope. Wouldn't apply to players either. The dichotomy we face is why we don't see robots much in canon when they're relatively inexpensive and available. Ergo, I speculate on reasons why they might be present but not seen much. I don't know a lot of published adventures where players go touring through another ship's engine room or bridge.

...And as for liners, one with a robot crew could offer a discount on the fares and attract customers who care more for the price than how classy the ride is. ...

Yeah, if the game would let us do that. I'm big on that option for an IMTU variant, 'cause it makes sense and opens up travel to folk who otherwise couldn't afford it. Virgin Robot Spacelines! Of course, I'm also big on charging rates that reflect the distance traveled instead of one fixed rate no matter how much you spend to get there. However, we were discussing what we're seeing in canon, and canon is (usually) subject to canon.

For those that are wondering about robots and the OTU, why they don't take all the jobs - Stating up a bot in T5 is not cheap nor is it efficent. ...
so basic cost... without extras is 61Kcr
61,000! Credits... and the average human wage (assuming a terran year and work week) is 8300ish)
so many years to amortize a dummy bot. ...

I don't yet have T5. Does it do the amortization differently? Cr61,000 on a 40 year loan is Cr3050 a year, quite a savings over the Cr8300 a year for the human. Wal-Mart would be thrilled to replace its cashiers and stockers at that level of savings.

...I was comparing the absolutely cheapest bot that could be built with a worker. You definitely could not use this as a pilot (unless you want to die....)
so the average citizen (whom I was talking about) is way cheaper than a useless robot that rolls at best 2D<c+s (and add THIS IS HARD!) for 3D
where C=1 and S=1 - so it fails almost all the time except on the easiest of tasks (even cautious (2D )brings it done to a success rate of 3%)
normal roll would be 3D<1+1 ... so almost always a fail for the cheap version except when it can take the time to do it slow.

Wait, what?? Why is the cashier robot or cargo bot rolling for anything? Does T5 require skill rolls on every single use of a skill??? Oh my holy ... maybe I need to bump T5 down on my wish list. :nonono:

I wonder if my thermostat needs to make a roll every time it wants to turn on the AC?

...oh and 1 final thing.... after a year of use a robot needs to roll flux vs intelligence add or subtract that value which could completely lobotimize your bot (out of warranty issue)

Serious? T5 does an annual flux roll? What is an annual flux roll? It gets rolled every year on every bot, and it's not a failure covered by the warranty?? Well, that would explain why there's few robots in the T5 universe: our modern tech seems to be better than anything they can manage at TL15.

I get where a sophont-level brain might be subject to glitchiness, but I really think a rule that says the bots used by modern automakers aren't possible is a rule that needs a patch. Maybe we need to have that flux rule more precisely explained, 'cause something isn't right there.

...I don't like rules changes that make for big changes in the setting (Changes that fit the rules better to the setting are fine). ... I submit that it would be best to ignore the T5 rules on robots for the purposes of this thread. YMM, of course, V. ...

I agree. It's interesting to compare the two systems, but that's a pretty radical difference (and doesn't make sense). At that point we're basically dealing with two very different views of the milieu: a CT one in which bots are affordable and long lived but aren't seen much for some reason, and a T5 one in which bots are rare because the masters of technology haven't figured out how to make a basic brain that won't break down.

We could do a compare-and-contrast thing, but Book-8 is canon for CT, so we might at least want to talk about whether we're discussing a T5 milieu or a CT milieu.

 

[rancke]

only applies after the first year for the flux roll.
after that their neural nets are supposed to be fixed and less likely to have flux issues.

The obvious thing to do in that case is to let your robot brains sit and mature for a year, then install them in whatever robots require the exact Int that the brain settled down to.

...and like it or not... T5 is now OTU

Once Marc Miller gets around to publishing a revised description of the OTU, yes. But I don't need to accept it and I can discuss the OOTU (Old OTU) if I like, just like we've been doing here on this thread until you brought up the T5 rules. (Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying you did anything wrong in bringing them up; I'm just saying that I myself personally am not interested in discussing the ramifications of major setting-altering new rules.)


Hans

 

[rancke]

Yeah, if the game would let us do that.

It does if you regard the rules as simplifications for the sake of making it easier to run a free trader in a campaign. And since there are at least two canonical examples of non-standard fares, I submit that they are. There's no specific statement about the Imperium legally adjusting transportation costs. It's just a game rule, same as every single automatic in the universe having the exact same clip size if you go by the rules. (Well, the LBB rules anyway).

(I've even come up with an explanation that pretty nearly (not quite, but almost) manages to reconcile the standard High, Mid, and Low Passages with per-parsec pricing (Basically, Passages are vouchers that can be exchanged for tickets on any ship jumping up to 4 parsecs)).


Hans

 

[Ackehece]

The obvious thing to do in that case is to let your robot brains sit and mature for a year, then install them in whatever robots require the exact Int that the brain settled down to.

of course with the resultant doubling or tripling of value of said brain. (make your money back on each brain of course) and they have to be doing the job that they were designed for during that year.

Once Marc Miller gets around to publishing a revised description of the OTU, yes. But I don't need to accept it and I can discuss the OOTU (Old OTU) if I like, just like we've been doing here on this thread until you brought up the T5 rules. (Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying you did anything wrong in bringing them up; I'm just saying that I myself personally am not interested in discussing the ramifications of major setting-altering new rules.)


Hans

True enough - but I just thought that the thread needs to be cognizant of the fact that robots are *expensive* in the new OTU and that wages are - shall we say reduced.... but as you say- go on with the OOTU