S4 was WRONG about CT Combat!

[far-trader]

Ok... my copy of book 1 (second edition) has the following (snip of page numbers)...

...what you cite must be the revised, re-written Book 1 you are producing now?
Or is it the 1st edition book?

I think it's TTB pages, or a mix of B2 and TTB. It could use clarification up thread though I think the errata pdf does note which book the pages refer to.

 

[BlackBat242]

I think it's TTB pages, or a mix of B2 and TTB. It could use clarification up thread though I think the errata pdf does note which book the pages refer to.

Ah, I haven't downloaded the errata pdf because I was under the impression it wasn't complete yet.

 

[aramis]

Ok, does this set of combat clarifications make it clear what we're doing now? If there are better ways to phrase this, or better ways to break it up, please point it out.

First Blood, p. 34, 47: The so-called first blood or critical hits rule applies to the first wound a character receives in each combat. Entering a combat wounded from a previous combat does not make you immune to the first blood rule.
Wounding and Death, p. 35-36, 47: Wounds from a second combat should be tracked separately from those from an earlier combat (since they will heal at a different times), unless the characteristic goes to zero; if that happens, just use the newest injury for healing times.
Effects of Characteristics, p. 36: The statement "wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots" applies only to a single combat. When a character is out of combat and has wounds applied, the resulting wounded levels do apply to any future combats after receiving such wounds. The intention of this rule was that during a combat, the game need not slow down to deal with such changes. The intention was not that already wounded characters could operate in future combats prior to recovery (or even treatment) as if they were uninjured.
Unconscious, p. 36, 47: Characters who are wounded when a combat ends but never go unconscious (because no characteristic ever is reduced to zero) have their characteristics reset to halfway between the wounded and full strength values. Unconscious characters with only one characteristic going to zero also get their characteristics reset to halfway between the wounded and full strength values after regaining consciousness. However, unconscious characters with two characteristics at zero, do not receive the halfway reset after regaining consciousness. In this case, the rule on p. 36 applies: "Their characteristics remain at the wounded level (or 1, whichever is higher). Recovery is dependent on medical attention (a medical facility and an individual with Medical-3 skill; recuperation to full strength without medical attention is not possible)."
Morale, p. 37: The point in time when a party must begin making morale throws should be 25%, not 20%.

Once we finish cleaning this up (and once a couple of HG issues are resolved over on ct-starships), it should be ready for an "almost-final" re-review by Marc.

Now, just to make things clear, I created a flowchart. This is my creation, not Marc's, so any screwups are mine:

After Combat Recovery Chart (by DonM)

1. If character has no physical characteristic reduced to zero, all wounded characteristics are placed midway between wounded and full levels, rounding fractions down; go to 2. If any physical characteristic is reduced to zero, go to 5.

2. If someone with Medical-1+ skill and medical kit available, go to 3; if not, go to 4.

3. Complete recovery takes 30 minutes; until recovered, character is treated as having the midway characteristics.

4. Complete recovery requires 3 days rest; until recovered, character is treated as having the midway characteristics.

5. If character has one physical characteristic reduced to zero, go to 6; if more than one physical characteristic is reduced to zero, go to 9.

6. Character regains consciousness in 10 minutes; once conscious, all wounded characteristics are placed midway between wounded and full levels, rounding fractions down. If someone with Medical-1+ skill and medical kit available, go to 7; if not, go to 8.

7. Complete recovery takes 30 minutes; until recovered, character is treated as having the midway characteristics.

8. Complete recovery requires 3 days rest; until recovered, character is treated as having the midway characteristics.

9. If character has two physical characteristics reduced to zero, go to 10. If all three physical characteristics are reduced to zero, go to 13.

10. Character regains consciousness in 3 hours. Once conscious, any wounded characteristics remain at the wounded level (or at 1, whichever is higher). If someone with Medical-3+ skill and medical facilities available, go to 11; if not, go to 12.

11. Complete recovery requires 5 days in medical facility; until recovered, character is treated as having the wounded characteristics.

12. No recovery possible until facilities and skill are available; until then, character is treated as having the wounded characteristics.

13. If character has three physical characteristics reduced to zero, character is dead.

3 & 4 are the same as 7 & 8... bad flowcharting

 

[Gadrin]

Well Book 4 states the ref can introduce their own options so for
Grenades, if you give negative mods for being prone they could
apply, as well as anything else that's relevant (assuming your
injured individual is prone or whatever).

>

 

[DonM]

3 & 4 are the same as 7 & 8... bad flowcharting

I thought I fixed that. See, I said the screwups were mine.

I created the flowchart when I started on this issue, so I could see what was happening when. Here's the corrected chart...

1. If character has no physical characteristic reduced to zero, all wounded characteristics are placed midway between wounded and full levels, rounding fractions down; go to 2. If any physical characteristic is reduced to zero, go to 3.

2. If someone with Medical-1+ skill and medical kit available, go to 5; if not, go to 6.

3. If character has one physical characteristic reduced to zero, go to 4; if more than one physical characteristic is reduced to zero, go to 7.

4. Character regains consciousness in 10 minutes; once conscious, all wounded characteristics are placed midway between wounded and full levels, rounding fractions down. If someone with Medical-1+ skill and medical kit available, go to 5; if not, go to 6.

5. Complete recovery takes 30 minutes; until recovered, character is treated as having the midway characteristics.

6. Complete recovery requires 3 days rest; until recovered, character is treated as having the midway characteristics.

7. If character has two physical characteristics reduced to zero, go to 8. If all three physical characteristics are reduced to zero, go to 11.

8. Character regains consciousness in 3 hours. Once conscious, any wounded characteristics remain at the wounded level (or at 1, whichever is higher). If someone with Medical-3+ skill and medical facilities available, go to 9; if not, go to 10.

9. Complete recovery requires 5 days in medical facility; until recovered, character is treated as having the wounded characteristics.

10. No recovery possible until facilities and skill are available; until then, character is treated as having the wounded characteristics.

11. If character has three physical characteristics reduced to zero, character is dead.

 

[DonM]

I think it's TTB pages, or a mix of B2 and TTB. It could use clarification up thread though I think the errata pdf does note which book the pages refer to.

I snipped out of the TTB section. The errata PDF does have all three sources separated. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[DonM]

A nice summary chart, except for this bit...

...the rule in TTB is 5 to 30 days (obviously a 5D6 roll imo). Unless you meant to replace that with a simple 5 days for other reasons.

I have a lovely e-mail from someone insisting it's a referee's decision. Until I could prove it's a 5D6 roll from somewhere, I've been using the flat 5 days more to annoy than anything else.

Sorry about that...

 

[DonM]

So I have a follow-up question. As per the clarification, if someone with physical stats 888 gets into a fight and has his stats reduced to 044, he'll wake up 10 minutes later with his stats temporarily set to 466, right? And if he gets into a new fight, he starts that fight with the stats 466. Now, say he is reduced to 022. When he wakes up, are his temporary stats 244 or 355?

Since he started at 466 and ended at 022, his reset is 244. I'd rule in my game that they are separate wounds, and so you could recover them together, but I don't think I'd stagger the recoveries. I'd combine them and let the latest one govern recovery time.

 

[far-trader]

I have a lovely e-mail from someone insisting it's a referee's decision. Until I could prove it's a 5D6 roll from somewhere, I've been using the flat 5 days more to annoy than anything else.

Sorry about that...

No sweat (though my brain is insisting there are other cases of X to Y units where the implied die roll is clear but not always explicit, and some where it is noted).

 

[beowulf2044]

On the recovery issue, I've always interpreted the time passage as 1D6X5 days, granting a random spread of 5 to 30 days in 5 day increments. I've let the Players roll their own, so they can curse themsleves if they roll a 5 or 6.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think I'm going to house rule the wounds like this:



Superficial Wound: No stats go to zero during the combat, then all three physical stats are raised to their full limit. In other words, if one stat does not go to zero, then the character is completely healed at the end of the combat.

Minor Wound: When one stat goes to zero. Throw 2D for END or less to remain conscious. If successful, place the zeroed stat half way between zero and the fully healed number, round fractions against the character. If no successful, run as RAW.

Serious Wound: When two stats are reduced to zero. No changes from RAW.

Death: Throw 2D for END or less for lingering death. If not successful, there will be no changes from RAW. The character is dead. If successful, the character will linger, unconscious and dying, for a number of units equal to the spread of the 2D END throw. Units can be combat rounds (1D of 1-2), minutes (1D of 3-4), hours (1D of 5), or days (1D of 6). Throw END exactly means units are seconds. A character that is lingering in death can stabilized and revived by a Medic-1+.



The First Blood rule will only be applied as a character's first wound, irrespective of combat.





This is close to RAW with a few tweaks to keep characters alive during all those firefights I like to run. It's also deadly enough to keep players respectful of combat.

 

[far-trader]

I think I'm going to house rule the wounds like this:

The First Blood rule will only be applied as a character's first wound, irrespective of combat.

For clarity I think I'd word it the way you have before:

The First Blood rule will only be applied as a character's first wound when that character is at full characteristics.

(to work with your Superficial Wounds are fully restored rule)

And I think I'd change the use of "healed" and "wounds" in a couple places as well. In your context it doesn't seem so much healing (at least for your Superficial Wounds) as it does recovery (more fatigue and adrenaline than actual injury, your "not every bullet fired hits" meme)

At least that's the intent I see, but I could be reading you wrong

 

[rancke]

Since he started at 466 and ended at 022, his reset is 244. I'd rule in my game that they are separate wounds, and so you could recover them together, but I don't think I'd stagger the recoveries. I'd combine them and let the latest one govern recovery time.

Fair enough. But do the rules say so explicitly anywhere?


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Fair enough. But do the rules say so explicitly anywhere?

I admit that a lot of what Marc is confirming for CT errata doesn't seem to be in the rules. For example, healing from Minor Wounds. That seems to be different from healing from Unconsciousness, if you go strictly by the text.

I wonder if some retconning isn't going on.

Not that that's bad. The rules Marc is endorsing are good ones. But, it is hard to squeeze what he's saying about the rules into how they read.

I've always been interested in what the rules of Classic Traveller are as printed--not as re-interpreted 30 years later.

 

[aramis]

I admit that a lot of what Marc is confirming for CT errata doesn't seem to be in the rules. For example, healing from Minor Wounds. That seems to be different from healing from Unconsciousness, if you go strictly by the text.

I wonder if some retconning isn't going on.

Not that that's bad. The rules Marc is endorsing are good ones. But, it is hard to squeeze what he's saying about the rules into how they read.

I've always been interested in what the rules of Classic Traveller are as printed--not as re-interpreted 30 years later.

Healing for minor wounds is on TTB47.

 

[Supplement Four]

Healing for minor wounds is on TTB47.

Yes, and if you follow what it says there, you're better off being knocked unconscious rather than not.

 

[atpollard]

[HOUSERULE] If a character has NO attributes reduced to 0 in a combat, then all attributes return to their full value at the end of the combat. [HOUSERULE]

I just wanted to be clear that this is IMTU ... but notice how many of the arguments and potential conflicts disappear. YMMV.

 

[tbeard1999]

<choking sounds>

Apology, accepted Captain Needa...

 

[DonM]

Yes, and if you follow what it says there, you're better off being knocked unconscious rather than not.

Which is why I'm really convinced that there's a paragraph that was dropped, and 30 years of play never noticed it.

Let's face it, all of us house-ruled the CT combat system in this area. We read through the gaps.

 

[far-trader]

Which is why I'm really convinced that there's a paragraph that was dropped, and 30 years of play never noticed it.

Yep, missing paragraph, but I'd say noticed as in "Hunh? Seems to be missing something there?" leading to...

Let's face it, all of us house-ruled the CT combat system in this area. We read through the gaps.

...and moved on to the playing.