Saving T5 or How to make an old Traveller actually accept and like T5?

[Almuric]

*chuckle*

I would tend to argue that history vs. metaplot is a difference without distinction D.

Well, it's possible to treat it that way, but in practice, there can be a distinction.

For example, I was developing a line of SF gaming books for a game company for a game set a period of several decades in our future.

The specific directive from the publisher was: "This setting will cover xx years of future history from X until the point where the game is set. However, we specifically DO NOT want you to have a meta-plot. All supplements
and future adventures for the game will be set either an indeterminate time or at the fixed starting date established in the game setting as "present day."

That was written into the actual design documents for the game; the distinction was pretty clear, and applied strictly to all writers working on it.

It's possible to advance a timeline without having a meta-plot, though.

TAS news was indeed one of the earliest "meta-plot" elements in the industry. However, also by definition, meta-plot is something that has a significant effect on the setting as a whole - a big picture plot.

In the Imperium, while an ostensible date was advanced "in real time" and supported by JTAS's TAS news, this was basically a cute gimmick and a bit of color, not really a meta-plot... until it did start
to affect the big picture and change the setting.

It became meta-plot when it started building toward the Fifth Frontier War (and later the Rebellion)

Had TAS not introduced anything that changed the setting and focused on random interesting but never interconnected local news, it would not really have had a meta-plot, even if it continued to advance the timeline. If there is
no practical difference between 1105 and 1140, then there is no meta-plot...

 

[mike wightman]

Which is why I suggest the Galaxiad as a possible solution.

Move the timeline 10,000 years further into the future.

e.g. The fifth Imperium rules in human dominated space, but long ago contact was made with "the others" who brought the secret of hop and skip drive to open up the galaxy. The human megacorporation/guild that controls access to ships equipped with these drives offer transport from one galactic arm to another.

That sort of thing.

Look at the galaxy map in T5, the cultures in the other parts of the galaxy are what interest me now.

 

[DonM]

Yeah, I remember that. It's like, who missed that!

And it's time for a post-op nudge to the five.

 

[Quint]

Well, it's possible to treat it that way, but in practice, there can be a distinction... ...Had TAS not introduced anything that changed the setting and focused on random interesting but never interconnected local news, it would not really have had a meta-plot, even if it continued to advance the timeline...

Agreed, and I agree with you on the various ways to handle it, but that isn't the way that TNS was handled so it's rather a moot argument. Heck, as is explained... somewhere... there are hints of the 5FW in a variety of sources - Twilights Peak and Broadsword, GDW had an relatively well-supported drive towards that event across multiple products

D.

 

[rancke]

Personally I'd argue that history differs from meta-plot in that history allows free-will and meta-plot denies it. It's true that the rebellion and new era have a scope that makes it nigh impossible to fight against the course of history but that's only realistic the pc's actions are drops in the ocean. A meta-plot tends to involve the player characters very directly in determining the course of history while denying them any actual ability to do so.

That's rather neatly put. One might say that history is what happens in the background while the PCs get on with their own affairs and meta-plot is what happens in the foreground while the PCs are forced to get on with the writers' affairs.

If that's the case, the Third Imperium setting had more history than meta-plot, at least at first. A referee didn't HAVE to let the 5FW interfere with the PCs' affairs. The Rebellion and Hard Times and the Virus did admittedly tend to intrude on your ordinary campaign a bit.


Hans

 

[Quint]

That's rather neatly put. One might say that history is what happens in the background while the PCs get on with their own affairs and meta-plot is what happens in the foreground while the PCs are forced to get on with the writers' affairs.

If that's the case, the Third Imperium setting had more history than meta-plot, at least at first. A referee didn't HAVE to let the 5FW interfere with the PCs' affairs. The Rebellion and Hard Times and the Virus did admittedly tend to intrude on your ordinary campaign a bit.

Hans

Yeah, and by that definition barely any games have had metaplot whereas many railroading modules and scenarios have done so. That isn't what people meant by metaplot when the term started to get used in the 90's, mainly to reference the White Wolf games - they mean what is actually exactly what we have with the OTU.

A game with a load of historical knowledge actively moving towards some preordained direction or event that the players cannot effect, prevent, or probably even influence all that much. In White Wolf this was the various versions of the Apocalypse, in Traveller it's, well, the Apocalypse and in the one other example that I can think of, Call of Cthulhu, though it would be a much looser "metaplot" it is again moving towards the Apocalypse...

Heck, even things like Forgotten Realms, which has had a long-going "living world" piece to it has even upset the cart with an Apocalypse for it seems like each new edition of D&D.

I think the argument is less with "metaplot" and more with the frustration that players and gamemasters have with their favorite settings being subjected to an apocalypse every new edition of the game... ;-)

D.

 

[Ulsyus]

From out this way, people I've played with have talked about 5FW being a well developed background/ongoing history because it fit in with past history (hey, there were four earlier ones). Conversely, the assassination in MT wasn't foreshadowed by anything. Didn't it contradict some info from CT that talked about the Archdukes being relatively powerless?

One of the most impressive living histories in a game was with Legend of the Five Rings, which updated their timeline every few years and evolved history in their card game and RPG based on the results of card tournaments at some of the big conventions (can't remember whether it was GenCon or Origins). The downside there though was that they bought out new editions of the game at far more frequent intervals than MM has. While it was a fun game, the re-editioning became a pain.

Originally posted by Quint
I think the argument is less with "metaplot" and more with the frustration that players and gamemasters have with their favorite settings being subjected to an apocalypse every new edition of the game... ;-)

Absolutely. Variety is nice, but having a steady background, developing over time, with plenty of TAS newsfeeds and Amber Zone warnings and assessments would go a long way to making a new Journal a pleasure to read...

 

[mike wightman]

It would also help if the future history was one person's vision:
CT Imperium - MWM + input from other GDW staff
MT Rebellion - DGP + limited input from GDW
MT Hard Times - CEG
TNE - DN + input from other GDW staff
1248 - MJD

The T5 Galaxiad is the ideal opportunity to retcon previous eras in much the way Survival Margin re-wrote Rebellion history.

 

[Quint]

Absolutely. Variety is nice, but having a steady background, developing over time, with plenty of TAS newsfeeds and Amber Zone warnings and assessments would go a long way to making a new Journal a pleasure to read...

I have yet to talk to either a group of players or a referee that has a problem with creating an apocalypse without any help from the game company...

D.

 

[robject]

[Diaspora] ... does include setting construction, but that's a VERY different thing from including a setting.

That sounds fascinating, though...

 

[aramis]

That sounds fascinating, though...

I hybridized Diaspora and Traveller when creating my Elestrial Concordat setting. If you hit my website, you can see the results.

Direct link to the EC page: http://aramis.hostman.us/ec/body.html

 

[Blue Ghost]

It would also help if the future history was one person's vision:
CT Imperium - MWM + input from other GDW staff
MT Rebellion - DGP + limited input from GDW
MT Hard Times - CEG
TNE - DN + input from other GDW staff
1248 - MJD

The T5 Galaxiad is the ideal opportunity to retcon previous eras in much the way Survival Margin re-wrote Rebellion history.

I'm not trying to ignite a war of combustable materials. I truly am not. But I'm not seeing how propelling T5 10,000 into "its" future is the way to go.

I mean, we're talking magic-tech territory here; stuff that's beyond personal disintigrators, beyond or around TARDIS territory ... think it, and it'll be kind of tech.

Unless, of course, there was some cataclysm, or series thereof, to put T5 bach into a pre-TL14 scheme of things.

 

[Quint]

I'm not trying to ignite a war of combustable materials. I truly am not. But I'm not seeing how propelling T5 10,000 into "its" future is the way to go.

I mean, we're talking magic-tech territory here; stuff that's beyond personal disintigrators, beyond or around TARDIS territory ... think it, and it'll be kind of tech.

Unless, of course, there was some cataclysm, or series thereof, to put T5 bach into a pre-TL14 scheme of things.

For what it is worth, the Galaxiad is only about 1000 years in the future (or maybe 1200? I don't have my BBB here handy) and puts the TL at around... 19 or 20ish IIRC - so not quite TRADIS level yet...

I started to do some work on such a setting and what the 5th Imperium might look like but gave up because I realized I'd rather spend the time on an ATU rather than doing something that was simply going to become irrelevant when the Galaxiad finally appeared in one form or another.

D.

 

[DonM]

It would also help if the future history was one person's vision:
CT Imperium - MWM + input from other GDW staff
MT Rebellion - DGP + limited input from GDW
MT Hard Times - CEG
TNE - DN + input from other GDW staff
1248 - MJD

The T5 Galaxiad is the ideal opportunity to retcon previous eras in much the way Survival Margin re-wrote Rebellion history.

I believe this is partially Marc's intention, without disturbing the greater part of the established Milleux.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I have to say that as much as the game marches forward, the stuff I would like to write for the system (in a professional capacity) will remain in the CT setting, but dabble here and there with higher (and lower) tech as the story demands.

I guess I misread the projection somewhere. Still, a thousand years is nothing to scoff at.

I guess my only question, or comment, is that I'm assuming that this pushes forward the official established setting in lieu of the generic setting that allows players to create their own settings. Do I have that right?

 

[aramis]

Well, I have to say that as much as the game marches forward, the stuff I would like to write for the system (in a professional capacity) will remain in the CT setting, but dabble here and there with higher (and lower) tech as the story demands.

I guess I misread the projection somewhere. Still, a thousand years is nothing to scoff at.

I guess my only question, or comment, is that I'm assuming that this pushes forward the official established setting in lieu of the generic setting that allows players to create their own settings. Do I have that right?

The core rules support the OTU. They can be used for ATUs, but they are not, per se, generic rules. If your ATU is too A, you're going to need to tweak the rules.

There are a bunch of things that are obviously (to me) there to support Galaxiad. When you can cross 300 parsecs in a week...

 

[Ulsyus]

Originally posted by DonM
I believe this is partially Marc's intention, without disturbing the greater part of the established Milleux.

So a bit like with GURPS? This is not the past you were looking for? You can go about your history now?

I suppose people are just parochial about which games they like ("T5 is not a game" was I suppose an extreme version of this) but what I like about T5 is that, maybe like GIRPS, or really most of the versions, is that it's possible to port the system to pretty much any setting/mellieu

 

[robject]

So a bit like with GURPS? This is not the past you were looking for? You can go about your history now?

Less like an alternate timeline, though.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Which is interesting, and I will stay on topic here, and not voice the following opinion too much anymore, but I would like to clarify my stance on my perspective on T5 in general.

When I first did warsims it was about armor, infantry and artillery support on a paper map with hexes. It was pretty generic stuff, although you could imagine whatever forces you had and liked in the course of play. When I picked up Traveller, after having done a number of Avalon Hill and SPI games, as well as Task Force and SJ Games, I did so because it looked like there was a lot of material for it. But none of the books seemed to be married to an OTU, although it was there.

As the game has evolved and gone through several iterations, my perspective of using Trav rules and applying them to a setting ... oh ... based on John Carter of Mars, or maybe even something base on the old Stewart Cowley Terran Trade Authority books (yes, I know, there is a game for TTA now), gets pushed back more and more.

I don't mind that. But, when I do create something, I still see T5 as this sci-fi RPG with an optional setting. I personally think that would have been the right avenue of promotion for the game to flourish, but my personal opinion aside, with all of the rich background that's been developed over the 30+ years of its existence, it probably becomes harder and harder to keep it as a "Optional Setting; use as you see fit and season to taste..."

And yet for all of my knowledge of the OTU I still see each iteration as an extension of CT with a CT like presentation; rules first, your setting, OTU if you so desire. So, whatever happens with T5, I think an old guard player or author like myself, will always see CT first. So I think old players who are on the fence about any aspect, might be served to think of the newer version as an extension of CT. That's how I see it, and that's kind of how I created for it over the years when I generated scenarios for various playing groups.

I hope this helps the OP.

 

[Hemdian]

Personally I’d like to see some OTU source material for T5. At some point over the years I got the impression that T5 was going to focus on the Julian Wars. (Anyone else get that impression?) This would be a new area/era of the OTU to explore, though I think some of it may have been covered in a fanzine.

Another iteration of the Spinward Marches could be done, making this sector a Rosetta Stone between different versions.

Or, the Spinward Marches during its earlier years might be interesting. Many empty or early colony worlds, first contact with the Zhodani, … much more of a frontier feel.

And I know some people are interested in the Psionic Suppressions. This era (set in the Spinward Marches) has plenty of scope for PCs to ‘make a difference’ without affecting major historical events. (I quite liked the PsiWorld RPG idea of allowing either side of the conflict to be played.)