Saying the right words the right way

[mike wightman]

True, but I'm not sure that's a reason to not make the effort. There's a new game on the deck. It's certainly fair for the new game to tweak the milieu as it sees fit, or at least someone thinks it is: we're seeing changes to worlds and stars. Maybe we could set up a thread like the errata stickies, discuss issues of milieu instead of rules, and allow those to serve as a possible resource for those planning T5 supplements related to milieu and history.

I am in complete agreement with you.

Perhaps the Galaxiad will fix stuff.

 

[mike wightman]

My standard disclaimer ("We are all playing different games that happen to have the same name: Traveller") is not idle philosophy. Writers, Pundits, and Grand Unified Theorists need to take that into account.

I did - hence my statement that there is no OTU.

Rather there is a CT77 OTU, CT77+HG1 OTU, CT77+HG2 OTU, CT81 OTU, CT81+HG2 OTU, MT OTU, TNE OTU, T4 OTU, T20 OTU, T20 1248 OTU, MgT OTU, T5... oh and the GT ATU.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I appear to have :CoW: elsewhere by imprudently calling a piece of milieu canon lore from Mongoose, "game dependent." It is proving to be a bit of a distraction over there, but it does seem to be an issue that's raised some passion, so - at peril of being roundly castigated - I present the question: is there such a thing as "game dependent" milieu canon?

I begin by cautioning that my knowledge of canon is limited to CT, a decent but incomplete chunk of MT, some GURPS, and one Mongoose book - that, and what I can get out of the wiki and such, which cites sources but draws information freely from all official sources and even some unofficial sources without prejudice. I base my general opinion on the handling of GURPS, which is clearly canon but - with both its intentionally different handling of the assassination business and its handling of some economic issues - also clearly "other". There are, from my limited knowledge of the various systems, some distinct differences in which the various systems address such things as the culture of the various spacefaring species, the nature of the relationship between the Imperial government and its member worlds, and the nature and extent of the interstellar trade economy. With that in mind, I tend to view the milieus hosted by those rules systems as distinct - all canon, all relevant, all legitimate sources for a gamemaster's use, but potentially different from each other.

That may be wrong. I am told (rather passionately by some) that, other than the GURPS thing, canon is canon: if T4 says Hrolf the Magnificent killed the Dread Pirate Marion in combat over Planet Peril, then by gum Hrolf the Magnificent killed the Dread Pirate Marion in combat over Planet Peril in the MegaTrav universe too - unless of course it occurs after the supposed assassination of Strephon, in which case it's a question of whether it occurred in the assassination milieu or the non-assassination milieu.

Now, clearly it's the right of any gamemaster to choose whatever elements of canon he wants and to exclude whatever elements he does not want for his own universe. That's not the question. The question is more one of how we discuss things within the community - how we see things collectively.

So, whaddaya think? Can we think of the milieu as being bounded to some extent by the walls of the rules system it's in, discussing the Mongoose milieu or the T4 milieu or the CT milieu as distinct entities, or is that inappropriate practice and we should discuss the milieu as a single mélange of many contributing sources?

Like everything intended for Traveller, the setting is a bonus. Initially Traveller was meant as a set of rules for role playing your favorite sci-fi setting;

Flash Gordon
Planet of the Apes
Things to Come (I've yet seen this one done)
2001 Space Odyssey
Star Trek
Star Wars

More recently;
Bab-5
Battlestar Galactica (new and old)
Stargate
etc.

The Imperium was meant as a generic empire with generic aliens. But as the game grew mister Miller and company found that people wanted background material. So it's there as large part of the game, but I still consider it to be "a convenience" for Referees who need to conjure a quick empire or government for the players to roam around in.

Even though I've chatted and exchanged thoughts with people on this BBS about the various wars, the Solomani (Terrans ... Earth people), Vargr, Aslan, K'Kree and other staples of the game, I still come from the old school of "rules first, setting second". Or, to put it another way; "Create your setting, draw on the material where needed, then implement the rules."

So, in this sense, you're actually quite correct about how your mileage may vary, and the milieu is dependent on the set of rules and era you choose, but, that's actually supposed to be a conscious decision on the referee's part.

Example; if you're playing a "Star Wars" game, then the Imperium becomes "The Evil Galactic Empire", and stormtroopers where combat armor toating LASER carbines (as per the suggestion of 1001 characters). Or, the Imperium is the United Federation of Planets from Trek fame, and your Class 1 starship has jump-6 and lots of tweaks to highguard to emulate photon torpedos and phasers.

I think the game has almost become too dependent on the background, because as I write adventures I still write with "generic sci-fi" at the forefront of my mind when I jot notes down here and there. I'll draw on the background material where I think it suits me, but I'm still of the opinion that all the fictional setting of place, time and people are play aides, and not so much a real hard official canon forever etched in time.

Call me crazy

 

[Hemdian]

I did - hence my statement that there is no OTU.

Rather there is a CT77 OTU, CT77+HG1 OTU, CT77+HG2 OTU, CT81 OTU, CT81+HG2 OTU, MT OTU, TNE OTU, T4 OTU, T20 OTU, T20 1248 OTU, MgT OTU, T5... oh and the GT ATU.

If you were to represent this as a Venn diagram, sure each would be a separate circle but there would be a lot of overlap. Thus it could be argued that the intersection of all these circles is the OTU. It might not be 'complete' but it nonetheless exists.

 

[LeperColony]

The OTU exists as a continuum. It's appropriate to speak of it as existing in certain conditions during a certain moment in time, but it simultaneously has a forward present existence, where the most recent events have been described, with implications for previous milieus.

There is in fact an OTU. That you can describe the game differently at different points in real and fictional history does not negate the fact that there is a continuing central time line (and an official alternate timeline with GT).

CT77 is a valid OTU, but it is simultaneously a point in the continuous OTU, which currently exists out to 1248. Materials written for 1248 can have an impact on the OTU as described in CT77, and those descriptions are canonical.

For example, it's appropriate to speak of Strephon as not the "Real Strephon" at certain discreet points in Traveller and the OTU's history. However, subsequent events made Strephon the real Strephon and that holds true retroactively.

 

[aramis]

LeperColony - CT 77 really didn't have an OTU in the sense of a setting not derived from encoding within the rules. The sum total non-rules description is short enough to quote within Marc's fair use guideline...

""

There ya' go. That's the whole quote of the Text about the OTU in CT-77.


A few chunks of rules text give the vaguest hints...

There is no mention of "Imperium" nor "Imperial" in CT77... the closest we get is in bk 2 in ship combat, and in bk3, under Nobility....

 

[Frankymole]

The Imperium was meant as a generic empire with generic aliens. But as the game grew mister Miller and company found that people wanted background material. So it's there as large part of the game, but I still consider it to be "a convenience" for Referees who need to conjure a quick empire or government for the players to roam around in.

Even though I've chatted and exchanged thoughts with people on this BBS about the various wars, the Solomani (Terrans ... Earth people), Vargr, Aslan, K'Kree and other staples of the game, I still come from the old school of "rules first, setting second". Or, to put it another way; "Create your setting, draw on the material where needed, then implement the rules."

And there were chunks of stuff that came in via the boardgames first, too.

 

[LeperColony]

LeperColony - CT 77 really didn't have an OTU in the sense of a setting not derived from encoding within the rules. The sum total non-rules description is short enough to quote within Marc's fair use guideline...

""

There ya' go. That's the whole quote of the Text about the OTU in CT-77.


A few chunks of rules text give the vaguest hints...

There is no mention of "Imperium" nor "Imperial" in CT77... the closest we get is in bk 2 in ship combat, and in bk3, under Nobility....

All that does is move the start date of the OTU. It doesn't establish that there isn't an OTU, whatever MM may have intended at the start.

 

[Blue Ghost]

And there were chunks of stuff that came in via the boardgames first, too.

I remember "Imperium" as one of those board games.

 

[aramis]

I remember "Imperium" as one of those board games.

Imperium dates to 1977 on its publication date. Using that basis, the OTU predates Traveller...

Note that some editions of the rulebook cite a 1974 copyright date... A typo, perhaps.

It's also worth noting that MANY game companies have used and reused the same setting in multiple editions, but altered it to incompatibility with new editions and/or new game modes.

TSR's Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Blackmoor, and Ravenloft all had multiple radical alterations. Gamma World, as well.

GW's Warhammer World and 40K setting have had a major revamp every new edition of the minis games. The RPG only got updated when the RPG hit new editions. (Which made the later printing era of WFRP1 a REAL pain - the newest books from HHP had to be matched to WFB 5, but the game was written for WFB 3. Which had a very different magic system for WFB, and thus the WFRP Realms of Sorcery is almost incompatible with WFRP itself.)

Hell, Star Trek (The multiple TV Series) has retconned with every new series. For many, it's 4 separate continuities - (1) TOS+TAS, (2) TNG+DS9+Voy, (3) Enterprise, and (4) NuTrek (2007 and 2013 movies)

The problem is that, until about 2000, most gamers I encountered really didn't do the kind of comparative edition exegesis that Hans and others are prone to doing. It's also about the time I really started doing so at all. Prior to that, I ignored TNE, and used MT as my reference edition, and when it wasn't clear, looked at CT for extra. I saw the 1116 changes in TNE's Regency Sourcebook as errors, not corrections; items to be errata corrected back. I took a similar approach to other TNE materials, especially HEPlaR. And I know I'm not the only one.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Eh...I guess that's kind of what I'm saying; use what you want, and toss the rest.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The other thing is my feelings on the matter are clouded by the fact that when my friends and I were playing in the 70s and 80s, we didn't have much of a guide other than Star Wars and various sci-f art books and fan rags.

It was a kind of giant blob of sci-fi settings. One was distinct from the other, but you could ease your way from one to the other, and therefore not feel inhibited by a specific setting, although there was an acknowledgement that Trek was not Logan's Run which was not Space Giants, which was not show-X, movie-Y, nor book/comic-Z.

So when Traveller rolled around, there was still this kind of mixed gelatin of sci-fi. You might not think to extract the Robinson family and put them in Star Wars, but there was the possibility that you could imagine it, and as such could conjure that kind of blend for your game.

For my early games it was strictly a generic sci-fi setting. The "official setting" helped fill in some holes, but my players wouldn't be surprised to encounter the Enterprise or the Millenium Falcon, because they were in just different regions of the galaxy.

The game was pliable. It still is. There's a more established background, and I think it's an excellent thing that it continues to build where the point it becomes a proper media property, but I still think Traveller's strength is it's "GURPS" like structure and intent.

The five adventures I've authored, two of which are recently completed and edited, I wrote with the generic Traveller setting in mind. I drew on the Imperium and some megacorporations for inspiration, but I still had it in my mind that what was important was the adventure, and not whether it was a Starfleet ship or some other vessel that came and helped out in the adventure.

That's how I discovered the game, that's kind of how I write for it. And to be honest, I don't hold anything against anyone for using the OTU, but I think it would help veterans and new players to keep in mind that Traveller is a mechanism to have fun, and that you needn't stick with anything written in stone.

Those are just my thoughts.

 

[Quint]

The other thing is my feelings on the matter are clouded by the fact that when my friends and I were playing in the 70s and 80s, we didn't have much of a guide other than Star Wars and various sci-f art books and fan rags.

This.

Now, I will say that was lucky enough to live in a household at that tender age with parents that loved scifi - so I had read Tubb, Varley, Norton, Anderson, Le Guin, Brackett, and the host of "foundational authors" - but I was also watching Star Wars, Alien/s, Predator(s), and lots of other SciFi in film and TV. This included things like reading the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series and watching old re-runs of Dr. Who on PBS.

Our early games were loaded with Anti-Matter Planet Busting Bombs, Plausible Deniability Drives, and whatever else we could dream up and dump into the game. There were Timelords, Lensmen, Jedi, and a hosts of arguments about who was most powerful...

After years of slaving to a OTU that I genuinely think is enjoyable to read, I'm less interested in actually playing in the Imperium any more because of the sheer inability to get new players to absorb it all, let alone enough to feel competent. I actually tend to look at the various OTU canons as being "all in one" but with the understanding that it's written (literally) by different historians and nobody has all the details right (academics always have various theories and perspectives that might or might not be accurate).

I started buying MGT because I needed a current rules system that players could buy, but in looking at the relatively canon-neutral rules (with all sorts of shout-outs to non-OTU settings) I was surprised to find a yearning for those games that were more about wild speculation and fun rather than min-maxing ship designs and playing in a universe where things are all arguably fore-ordained.

Bleh.

D.

 

[Blue Ghost]

This.

Now, I will say that was lucky enough to live in a household at that tender age with parents that loved scifi - so I had read Tubb, Varley, Norton, Anderson, Le Guin, Brackett, and the host of "foundational authors" - but I was also watching Star Wars, Alien/s, Predator(s), and lots of other SciFi in film and TV. This included things like reading the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series and watching old re-runs of Dr. Who on PBS.

Our early games were loaded with Anti-Matter Planet Busting Bombs, Plausible Deniability Drives, and whatever else we could dream up and dump into the game. There were Timelords, Lensmen, Jedi, and a hosts of arguments about who was most powerful...

After years of slaving to a OTU that I genuinely think is enjoyable to read, I'm less interested in actually playing in the Imperium any more because of the sheer inability to get new players to absorb it all, let alone enough to feel competent. I actually tend to look at the various OTU canons as being "all in one" but with the understanding that it's written (literally) by different historians and nobody has all the details right (academics always have various theories and perspectives that might or might not be accurate).

I started buying MGT because I needed a current rules system that players could buy, but in looking at the relatively canon-neutral rules (with all sorts of shout-outs to non-OTU settings) I was surprised to find a yearning for those games that were more about wild speculation and fun rather than min-maxing ship designs and playing in a universe where things are all arguably fore-ordained.

Bleh.

D.

Thank you, and sorry for not replying and thanking you earlier, as this post has been on my mind ever since you put it up.

I remember when my friends and I first started playing the game way back when; our group had contracted with a naval architect (as per the rules) to design and construct one of the premade designs.

It was still a wide open world that was full of unknowns and places and things that were going to be fantastic, and just waiting to be experienced.

That sense of wonder is what I've been trying recreate in my recent offerings. With all the recent science fiction offerings presented in books and films over the last 20 years, I feel confined when I explore one and then the other. Like I'm "universe hopping" as opposed to sampling one setting, enjoying it, then moving onto the next one without worrying about how they're discreet values unto themselves; i.e. "other universes".

I've said it a few times before, and I'll reiterate it here; I think Traveller, as intended, was a generic sci-fi RPG with which you could conjure that final assault on the Death Star, or escape from carousel and the domed city in Logan's Run, or rediscover an Earth dominated by apes. And I think getting back to that feel (though not necessarily with those specific media-properties) might be a wise thing to do in order for the game to expand and bring in new players, a new fan base, and just create really good positive entertainment for groups of friends and even families.

That's what Traveller was about to me and my groups years back, and I would like to see that and be part of it again, as opposed to reading posts that quibble about the shortcomings of T5's rules, or how thing-X isn't defined.

Traveller is supposed to be about people who have a degree of success or a kind of luck that thrusts them into extraordinary circumstances and far away and fantastic places.

I very much want to write and contribute in that vein.

As I sit here and write this post, I have the old Logan's Run TV series from 1977 streaming from Amazon. It was not a terrific show, but I liked it, and thought it good solid entertainment. Traveller could be an extension or rule set that would allow us to experience Nolan's work in an interactive setting, and explore a world fraught with danger and mystery.

To me that's what Traveller is about. And that's what I want to see people get into again here on this BBS.

 

[aramis]

Somewhere between 1977 and 1981, the industry changed quite a bit.

Not that any game can be written that is truly without setting assumptions. (Even GURPS has a lot of built in assumptions.) But CT 77 is written with the assumptions built into the mechanics.

But CT didn't even TRY to emulate the extant settings. It appears to be a generic pulp with some setting elements that are unique. The Jump Drive is pretty unusual - Later games and a couple novels have borrowed it for its setting impacts...

S&S was the Trek game of the 70's. RQ and T&T were the alternatives to D&D for fantasy. EPT was the other Fantasy game, and it was D&D as warped by the Professor for his own use.

One of the big things that seems to have changed in the early 80's - lots of people in the 70's were taking whatever game they had, reskinning it, and twisting mechanics to support the settings. By the 80's, people expected settings, and would dig into games to find the setting implied by the mechanics (and if it matched the text). By the 90's, this exegetical process was becoming a collaborative effort, with WWIV-net and Internet discussions....

 

[mike wightman]

The big mistakes GDW made with the OTU IMHO:

1 - by LBB6 the core rule books were now being written for the Imperium setting explicitly rather than just as a suggestion for how the rules could have been applied - suggestion, rule books should have remained as generic as the original 1-3

2 - the Spinward Marches are meant to be a frontier, but then they established nearly 1000 years of Imperial rule over this part of space... suggestion, they should have kept the SM as a relatively newly opened frontier.

 

[inexorabletash]

If you were to represent this as a Venn diagram, sure each would be a separate circle but there would be a lot of overlap. Thus it could be argued that the intersection of all these circles is the OTU. It might not be 'complete' but it nonetheless exists.

This. And the challenge is that every new edition or addition either falls into the intersection (and is critiqued as simply regurgitating/recycling old material) or innovates (and is critiqued as disregarding previous canon).

(Not entirely true, of course. You can drill into previously unexplored gaps, e.g. the "why" of the 5FW)

A "definitive guide to the OTU" would either tell us nothing new, or would create yet another mostly-intersecting universe. Neither is necessarily a bad thing, though.

I don't mind the OTU being a fuzzy, uncertain, potentially inconsistent mess. I don't think it is a realistic universe anyway, so as long as it is an interesting multidimensional artifact it'll keep my attention.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think the Big black book mentions a generic universe, and stipulates that "jump drive" and "jump space" is the Traveller version of warp drive, hyperspace, or whatever sci-fi space-oriented engine you and your players use in your setting to get from Star A to Star B.

I remember reading the interview with Marc Miller about how people seemed to be hooked in by background material, and therefore the Imperium became more defined as more LBBs and later editions of the game were published. Even so there's still references in LBBs about how you could emulate Star Wars or Bill, Hero of the Galaxy kind of thing and a number of other settings and characters, all the while the bulk of the supplements dealt with game oriented equipment, characters and creatures.

When I played Traveller a lot (player and GM) the Imperium and its neighboring empires, were fairly nebulous in terms of who they were, what they were like, and all that. We knew they were populated by people other than Imperium citizens (mostly humans), but they didn't have a terribly exotic flavor regardless of their description; including K'Kree and Hiver. To me, at least, they seemed more again like generic aliens, even though they were defined.

That's just my knee jerk reaction here. Your mileage may vary.

 

[robject]

Eh...I guess that's kind of what I'm saying; use what you want, and toss the rest.

Yes. But, there's an important point in here.

... every new edition or addition either falls into the intersection (and is critiqued as simply regurgitating/recycling old material) or innovates (and is critiqued as disregarding previous canon).

[...]

A "definitive guide to the OTU" would either tell us nothing new, or would create yet another mostly-intersecting universe. Neither is necessarily a bad thing, though.

So-called "bibles" keep the story internally consistent. For our purposes, that means consistent to the particular rules used. This is more important for publishing, less so for playing.

In separating the setting from the rules, you divide the problem into two less complex problems. But you still have problems to overcome. And each rules set has variations on the setting.

 

[mike wightman]

Middle Earth.

I can use any fantasy game you care to mention in that setting.

Third Imperium.

Setting details change depending on which version of the game I am using.