Sensorlopes & Book 2 space combat

[Plankowner]

OK, just to clarify the multi-shot thing with a multi turret.

If Bruce has Gunner-2, then he could make 1 extra attack with EACH weapon in his turret, or only one extra attack and he would have to pick which weapon to use it on? I'm leaning toward making him pick just because it adds more PC action into the results.

I've been thinking about the ordinance side of this, and I don't think we should make special rules for them. Let the gunner fire multiple missiles or sand if he is a highly trained gunner. BUT, the missiles would have a hellishly bad DM at close range. My thought is that the missile will need time get clear of the ship before firing it's motor.

You might also consider that at close range, damage to the target ship might cause some damage to your ship. Remember, there is no air to slow down the debris after it blasts off the target ship. Sure, at 10,000km, you present a small target to the shrapnel, but it would be a lot higher than at any other range. As you tried to close for boarding, it would be almost inevitable that you would sustain some kind of damage if you fired on the target ship.

I like where this is going though. I still feel a bit uncomfortable with an extra attack for each level of gunner skill, but without playing it out a few times, I am willing to reserve judgement...

I like the penetration idea, it nicely dovetails into the HG armor rule.

BTW WJP do you make half-a-dozen posts at one time to pad your number of posts so you can get to 1000 sooner????

 

[Plankowner]

OK, just to clarify the multi-shot thing with a multi turret.

If Bruce has Gunner-2, then he could make 1 extra attack with EACH weapon in his turret, or only one extra attack and he would have to pick which weapon to use it on? I'm leaning toward making him pick just because it adds more PC action into the results.

I've been thinking about the ordinance side of this, and I don't think we should make special rules for them. Let the gunner fire multiple missiles or sand if he is a highly trained gunner. BUT, the missiles would have a hellishly bad DM at close range. My thought is that the missile will need time get clear of the ship before firing it's motor.

You might also consider that at close range, damage to the target ship might cause some damage to your ship. Remember, there is no air to slow down the debris after it blasts off the target ship. Sure, at 10,000km, you present a small target to the shrapnel, but it would be a lot higher than at any other range. As you tried to close for boarding, it would be almost inevitable that you would sustain some kind of damage if you fired on the target ship.

I like where this is going though. I still feel a bit uncomfortable with an extra attack for each level of gunner skill, but without playing it out a few times, I am willing to reserve judgement...

I like the penetration idea, it nicely dovetails into the HG armor rule.

BTW WJP do you make half-a-dozen posts at one time to pad your number of posts so you can get to 1000 sooner????

 

[Plankowner]

Well, WJP, we seem to have overlapped posts on this one.

Here is my evaluation of your edited scenario:

I think the damage/extra attacks works pretty well.

You seem to have answered my question about how to divie up the extra attacks by allowing them on all weapons in the turret, not sure I agree there, I guess I am trying to limit a bit what the gunner can do.

These are more Sensor Questions than Weapon Questions, but they tie in together...

I would think that it should be possible for a sensor operator on the incoming ship to detect the powering up of the turret. The question is, would he be able to detect it soon enough to do anything about it?

My thought is this: Give the incoming ship Initiative and if the Navigator makes a successful Sensor Roll, he will be able to detect that the Possum ship is powering up weapons and his ship can respond accordingly. If he fails the Sensor Roll, then he doesn't detect the power up and he is probably SOL and DOA.

I am trying to balance the encounter so that no matter what ship the PCs are running, it doesn't get too unbalanced or one of those "OK, your ship just took 20 hits, 4 Critical and your all dead, sorry you didn't get to do anything about it. Lets roll up new Characters!" type of scenario. I've been on both sides of such encounters and dead with no saving throw sucks.

OK, I'm off my soap box now... just trying to find the game balance.

I LIKE that you are giving a Gunner something more than an DM to hit at higher skill levels, but I worry that it might be too much.

 

[Plankowner]

Well, WJP, we seem to have overlapped posts on this one.

Here is my evaluation of your edited scenario:

I think the damage/extra attacks works pretty well.

You seem to have answered my question about how to divie up the extra attacks by allowing them on all weapons in the turret, not sure I agree there, I guess I am trying to limit a bit what the gunner can do.

These are more Sensor Questions than Weapon Questions, but they tie in together...

I would think that it should be possible for a sensor operator on the incoming ship to detect the powering up of the turret. The question is, would he be able to detect it soon enough to do anything about it?

My thought is this: Give the incoming ship Initiative and if the Navigator makes a successful Sensor Roll, he will be able to detect that the Possum ship is powering up weapons and his ship can respond accordingly. If he fails the Sensor Roll, then he doesn't detect the power up and he is probably SOL and DOA.

I am trying to balance the encounter so that no matter what ship the PCs are running, it doesn't get too unbalanced or one of those "OK, your ship just took 20 hits, 4 Critical and your all dead, sorry you didn't get to do anything about it. Lets roll up new Characters!" type of scenario. I've been on both sides of such encounters and dead with no saving throw sucks.

OK, I'm off my soap box now... just trying to find the game balance.

I LIKE that you are giving a Gunner something more than an DM to hit at higher skill levels, but I worry that it might be too much.

 

[Supplement Four]

RULES SUMMARY
------------------------


To sum all of this stuff up, from over several posts, here's what I'm putting forth for your approval--

(NOTE that I've changed a few things: Gunners can fire a number of rounds equal to their Gunnery skill (not Gunnery skill +1); Gunner Interact program is required for the gunner to use his skill as a beneficial DM on the penetration roll; Multiple shots with a laser weapon begin with a -2DM instead of a -1DM; etc.)



=======================
PENETRATION
=======================


Each hit obtained in Book 2 space combat requires a penetration roll. This roll is a 2D roll for a total of 12 or less. Results of 13+ indicate that a hit was scored but no damage was incurred on the target vessel (you might see a divot on the hull of the ship or carbon scaring).

Penetration = 2D for 12-

DMs can be applied to the penetration roll. Targets protected by Sand, for example, require a +3DM used on penetration. Targets protected by armor will also have a DM that increases the penetration roll (making it more likely that the penetration throw will result in 13+).

An adjusted penetration result of "3" indicates that extra damage on the target vessel was achieved, and the gunner is allowed one extra throw on the damage table.

An adjusted penetration result of "2" allows the gunner to roll a number of extra damage table throws equal to his Gunnery skill (A Gunner-3, for example, would throw a total of 4 damage results--the original damage throw plus 3 bonus throws).


Other DMs are possible on the Penetration throw. Some (Range and Low-Power Attacks) are described below, but some may also be implemented by the DM.

For example, if the Gunner Interact program is being used, then the Gunner's skill level could be used as a -DM on the penetration roll. Likewise, programs such as Predict or Select may provide DMs on penetration. When the ship's computer is damaged, for example, the GM may rule that the DM used on the computer roll to keep the computer working during a combat phase is also used as a penalty DM on the penetration throw.

A good rule of thumb for using DMs on the penetration roll is: Any DM that modifies the attack throw will typically also modify the penetration roll.



=======================
RANGE
=======================


A starship's combat range corresponds with the quality of the ship's sensors (CT Sensor Rules can be found here .)

These sensor/combat ranges are analogous to the personal combat ranges given in Book 1. 1 Range Band = 10,000 km. (Range Bands are also referred to as "hexes".)


</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Category Sensor Limit
-------------- -------------------------------
Close Range Within same hex
Short Range Hexes equal to ship's Computer Model Number
Medium Range Hexes equal to ship's Power Plant Code
Long Range Hexes equal to max range of sensor class
Very Long Range Maximum of 90 hexes</pre>[/QUOTE]For example, the sensor/combat ranges for a 200 ton Type A Free Trader, with a Model 1bis Computer, PP-A, and Class I sensors would be--

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Category Range in Range Bands
-------------- --------------------
Close Range Same hex.
Short Range 1 hex.
Medium Range 2-10 hexes.
Long Range 11-15 hexes.
Very Long Range 16-90 hexes.</pre>[/QUOTE]Use these Range DMs for attack and penetration throws when using these rules and Book 2 Space Combat.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Category Attacker's DM Penetration DM
-------------- ------------- --------------
Close Range +4 -4
Short Range +2 -2
Medium Range +1 -1
Long Range +0 +0
Very Long Range -1 +1</pre>[/QUOTE]
=======================
GUNNERY EXPERTISE
=======================


A ship's laser is just one piece of a complex system that allows a vessel to accurately fire at a bogey that travels far beyond visual range, several light seconds away. The ship's navigator feeds sensor data to the gunner, who uses the ship's computer to analyze the data and predict a targeting solution. Mechanically, the ship's laser capictors must recharge after every release of energy.

All of this takes time, and, typically, a targeting solution can be found (and the capacitors recharged) to allow the ship's lasers fired once per 15 minutes or so. But, a skilled gunnery officer can coax his weapon to fire more often without a fully recharged capacitor.

In game terms, what this means is that a gunner can fire a laser weapon a number of times each round equal to his skill level (thus, a character with Gunnery-2 could fire his weapon twice in a round).

When laser weapons are fired in single shots, no modifer is assinged to the attack throw (as a standard Book 2 attack throw).

When multiple attacks (referred to as Low-Powered attacks) are attempted in a round, a penalty DM is applied to both the attack throw and the penetration throw (if the attack throw is successful). If two attacks are attempted with the same weapon during the same round, then each attack is thrown using a -2DM on the attack throw and a +2DM on the penetration throw. If three attacks are attempted, the DM is -3/+3. If four attacks, the DM is -4/+4, and so on.

 

[Supplement Four]

RULES SUMMARY
------------------------


To sum all of this stuff up, from over several posts, here's what I'm putting forth for your approval--

(NOTE that I've changed a few things: Gunners can fire a number of rounds equal to their Gunnery skill (not Gunnery skill +1); Gunner Interact program is required for the gunner to use his skill as a beneficial DM on the penetration roll; Multiple shots with a laser weapon begin with a -2DM instead of a -1DM; etc.)



=======================
PENETRATION
=======================


Each hit obtained in Book 2 space combat requires a penetration roll. This roll is a 2D roll for a total of 12 or less. Results of 13+ indicate that a hit was scored but no damage was incurred on the target vessel (you might see a divot on the hull of the ship or carbon scaring).

Penetration = 2D for 12-

DMs can be applied to the penetration roll. Targets protected by Sand, for example, require a +3DM used on penetration. Targets protected by armor will also have a DM that increases the penetration roll (making it more likely that the penetration throw will result in 13+).

An adjusted penetration result of "3" indicates that extra damage on the target vessel was achieved, and the gunner is allowed one extra throw on the damage table.

An adjusted penetration result of "2" allows the gunner to roll a number of extra damage table throws equal to his Gunnery skill (A Gunner-3, for example, would throw a total of 4 damage results--the original damage throw plus 3 bonus throws).


Other DMs are possible on the Penetration throw. Some (Range and Low-Power Attacks) are described below, but some may also be implemented by the DM.

For example, if the Gunner Interact program is being used, then the Gunner's skill level could be used as a -DM on the penetration roll. Likewise, programs such as Predict or Select may provide DMs on penetration. When the ship's computer is damaged, for example, the GM may rule that the DM used on the computer roll to keep the computer working during a combat phase is also used as a penalty DM on the penetration throw.

A good rule of thumb for using DMs on the penetration roll is: Any DM that modifies the attack throw will typically also modify the penetration roll.



=======================
RANGE
=======================


A starship's combat range corresponds with the quality of the ship's sensors (CT Sensor Rules can be found here .)

These sensor/combat ranges are analogous to the personal combat ranges given in Book 1. 1 Range Band = 10,000 km. (Range Bands are also referred to as "hexes".)


</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Category Sensor Limit
-------------- -------------------------------
Close Range Within same hex
Short Range Hexes equal to ship's Computer Model Number
Medium Range Hexes equal to ship's Power Plant Code
Long Range Hexes equal to max range of sensor class
Very Long Range Maximum of 90 hexes</pre>[/QUOTE]For example, the sensor/combat ranges for a 200 ton Type A Free Trader, with a Model 1bis Computer, PP-A, and Class I sensors would be--

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Category Range in Range Bands
-------------- --------------------
Close Range Same hex.
Short Range 1 hex.
Medium Range 2-10 hexes.
Long Range 11-15 hexes.
Very Long Range 16-90 hexes.</pre>[/QUOTE]Use these Range DMs for attack and penetration throws when using these rules and Book 2 Space Combat.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Category Attacker's DM Penetration DM
-------------- ------------- --------------
Close Range +4 -4
Short Range +2 -2
Medium Range +1 -1
Long Range +0 +0
Very Long Range -1 +1</pre>[/QUOTE]
=======================
GUNNERY EXPERTISE
=======================


A ship's laser is just one piece of a complex system that allows a vessel to accurately fire at a bogey that travels far beyond visual range, several light seconds away. The ship's navigator feeds sensor data to the gunner, who uses the ship's computer to analyze the data and predict a targeting solution. Mechanically, the ship's laser capictors must recharge after every release of energy.

All of this takes time, and, typically, a targeting solution can be found (and the capacitors recharged) to allow the ship's lasers fired once per 15 minutes or so. But, a skilled gunnery officer can coax his weapon to fire more often without a fully recharged capacitor.

In game terms, what this means is that a gunner can fire a laser weapon a number of times each round equal to his skill level (thus, a character with Gunnery-2 could fire his weapon twice in a round).

When laser weapons are fired in single shots, no modifer is assinged to the attack throw (as a standard Book 2 attack throw).

When multiple attacks (referred to as Low-Powered attacks) are attempted in a round, a penalty DM is applied to both the attack throw and the penetration throw (if the attack throw is successful). If two attacks are attempted with the same weapon during the same round, then each attack is thrown using a -2DM on the attack throw and a +2DM on the penetration throw. If three attacks are attempted, the DM is -3/+3. If four attacks, the DM is -4/+4, and so on.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
If Bruce has Gunner-2, then he could make 1 extra attack with EACH weapon in his turret, or only one extra attack and he would have to pick which weapon to use it on?

Under my revised rules that I just posted (after this post that I'm replying too), the answer is, "Yes."

Bruce is a Gunner-2, sitting in a triple beam laser turret.

He can fire each laser once per round, per standard Book 2 rules. He needs to roll 8+, plus any Range modifier.

(To keep the example clean, I'll not address programs like Gunner Interact or other DMs to the attack roll ... but those still apply).

Or, Bruce can fire any of the three weapons twice, in Low-Powered mode, provided a -2DM is used on each Low-Powered attack. So, now, he's roll 2D for 10+ plus any Range modifier.

I've been thinking about the ordinance side of this, and I don't think we should make special rules for them. Let the gunner fire multiple missiles or sand if he is a highly trained gunner.

Agreed. Hell, we've got mulitple rocket and missile launchers today. There's no reason why Trav tech wouldn't support this as well.

I believe the time lag on firing weapons has more to do with interpreting sensor data and finding a firing solution than anything else.

It's got to be a bitch trying to hit something out a tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

The time lag is the ship's Navigator sending sensor data to the gunner, and the gunner programing his weapon for a hit.

You might also consider that at close range, damage to the target ship might cause some damage to your ship.

Good thought, but I disagree. Even at one third of a hex, well within the limits of one Range Band, we're still talking about 3,000 km.

That's a long, long way.

No damage effect is going to effect that much of an area, especially in space where there is no atmosphere to carry it.

I like where this is going though.

Me too. This "feels" right, whereas I, myself, had a problem with a number of attacks equal to TL.

That was just unweildy.

This focuses the game on the gunner, and I like the rpg aspect.

Players will respect their gunners with high skill now, much more than they used to.

Even without Gunner Interact.

I still feel a bit uncomfortable with an extra attack for each level of gunner skill, but without playing it out a few times, I am willing to reserve judgement...

I had that same red flag in my head. I considered stating that a gunner can only fire a weapon equal to his Gunnery skill level in a round (whether that was Low-Powered multiple attacks, or three attacks from a triple laser turret).

But, the problem with that is that it would require a Gunner-3 to operate a triple beam turret!

And, what good would Gunner-0 be?

So, I went with the other rule.

But, it's probably not as game unbalancing as you might think.

First off, this is CT. You're not going to see but the occasional Gunner-3 or higher. Typically, you'll see Gunner-1's and Gunner-2's.

So, that's a limiting factor. It takes a Gunner-2 to fire a weapon more than once. A gunner has to be somewhat skilled to do it.

Now, your Gunner-5 characters are going to be gunnery gods ... which is what they should be, eh?

Second, don't forget the Range DMs and the Penetration DMs. Taking an extra shot automatically means that you can't roll extra damage with your multiple shot (unless the range is close).

Even if you roll a penetration of 2, that will be modified by at least +2, for a total of 4, when making a penetration roll. That means no extra damage, and it's harder to hit with the attack DM penalty.

A +2DM to hit is a fairly steep penalty.

Chances are, your Gunnery-5 character will never fire a weapon five times during a combat round because ... he can't overcome the -5DM to each hit (put Gunner Ineract with this guy, though, and watch out!).

And, even if he does hit a couple of times, that's a +5DM to the penetration roll -- so ... a gunner has to jump through two hoops when making a multiple attack. He's got to (1) overcome the Attack -DM, and (2) overcome the penetration +DM.

I think there are enough checks and balances in the system to keep the game balanced.

1. ... Gunner skill limits number of multiple attacks possible.
2. ... Penalty on attack throw makes attack harder.
3. ... Penalty on penetration throw makes damage less likely even if hit achieved.

Those are three things that keep the game balanced.

I like the penetration idea, it nicely dovetails into the HG armor rule.

Me too. I don't think many of my games will have ships with armor. I consider that to be the pervue of military vessels.

But, then again, I've always wanted my players to come across a patrol crusier that's armored!

This simple penetration rule will make it easy to implement that (because armor will be a simple +DM on the penetration roll).

BTW WJP do you make half-a-dozen posts at one time to pad your number of posts so you can get to 1000 sooner????

I do it for clarity. I try to make each post about one topic. People don't like to read long posts, and it's easier to reply to and discuss an aspect of a discussion when you are replying to one post rather than several spots in the same post.

It's just the way my brain works.

Is there some prize that I don't know about that happens when I get to 1000 posts?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
If Bruce has Gunner-2, then he could make 1 extra attack with EACH weapon in his turret, or only one extra attack and he would have to pick which weapon to use it on?

Under my revised rules that I just posted (after this post that I'm replying too), the answer is, "Yes."

Bruce is a Gunner-2, sitting in a triple beam laser turret.

He can fire each laser once per round, per standard Book 2 rules. He needs to roll 8+, plus any Range modifier.

(To keep the example clean, I'll not address programs like Gunner Interact or other DMs to the attack roll ... but those still apply).

Or, Bruce can fire any of the three weapons twice, in Low-Powered mode, provided a -2DM is used on each Low-Powered attack. So, now, he's roll 2D for 10+ plus any Range modifier.

I've been thinking about the ordinance side of this, and I don't think we should make special rules for them. Let the gunner fire multiple missiles or sand if he is a highly trained gunner.

Agreed. Hell, we've got mulitple rocket and missile launchers today. There's no reason why Trav tech wouldn't support this as well.

I believe the time lag on firing weapons has more to do with interpreting sensor data and finding a firing solution than anything else.

It's got to be a bitch trying to hit something out a tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

The time lag is the ship's Navigator sending sensor data to the gunner, and the gunner programing his weapon for a hit.

You might also consider that at close range, damage to the target ship might cause some damage to your ship.

Good thought, but I disagree. Even at one third of a hex, well within the limits of one Range Band, we're still talking about 3,000 km.

That's a long, long way.

No damage effect is going to effect that much of an area, especially in space where there is no atmosphere to carry it.

I like where this is going though.

Me too. This "feels" right, whereas I, myself, had a problem with a number of attacks equal to TL.

That was just unweildy.

This focuses the game on the gunner, and I like the rpg aspect.

Players will respect their gunners with high skill now, much more than they used to.

Even without Gunner Interact.

I still feel a bit uncomfortable with an extra attack for each level of gunner skill, but without playing it out a few times, I am willing to reserve judgement...

I had that same red flag in my head. I considered stating that a gunner can only fire a weapon equal to his Gunnery skill level in a round (whether that was Low-Powered multiple attacks, or three attacks from a triple laser turret).

But, the problem with that is that it would require a Gunner-3 to operate a triple beam turret!

And, what good would Gunner-0 be?

So, I went with the other rule.

But, it's probably not as game unbalancing as you might think.

First off, this is CT. You're not going to see but the occasional Gunner-3 or higher. Typically, you'll see Gunner-1's and Gunner-2's.

So, that's a limiting factor. It takes a Gunner-2 to fire a weapon more than once. A gunner has to be somewhat skilled to do it.

Now, your Gunner-5 characters are going to be gunnery gods ... which is what they should be, eh?

Second, don't forget the Range DMs and the Penetration DMs. Taking an extra shot automatically means that you can't roll extra damage with your multiple shot (unless the range is close).

Even if you roll a penetration of 2, that will be modified by at least +2, for a total of 4, when making a penetration roll. That means no extra damage, and it's harder to hit with the attack DM penalty.

A +2DM to hit is a fairly steep penalty.

Chances are, your Gunnery-5 character will never fire a weapon five times during a combat round because ... he can't overcome the -5DM to each hit (put Gunner Ineract with this guy, though, and watch out!).

And, even if he does hit a couple of times, that's a +5DM to the penetration roll -- so ... a gunner has to jump through two hoops when making a multiple attack. He's got to (1) overcome the Attack -DM, and (2) overcome the penetration +DM.

I think there are enough checks and balances in the system to keep the game balanced.

1. ... Gunner skill limits number of multiple attacks possible.
2. ... Penalty on attack throw makes attack harder.
3. ... Penalty on penetration throw makes damage less likely even if hit achieved.

Those are three things that keep the game balanced.

I like the penetration idea, it nicely dovetails into the HG armor rule.

Me too. I don't think many of my games will have ships with armor. I consider that to be the pervue of military vessels.

But, then again, I've always wanted my players to come across a patrol crusier that's armored!

This simple penetration rule will make it easy to implement that (because armor will be a simple +DM on the penetration roll).

BTW WJP do you make half-a-dozen posts at one time to pad your number of posts so you can get to 1000 sooner????

I do it for clarity. I try to make each post about one topic. People don't like to read long posts, and it's easier to reply to and discuss an aspect of a discussion when you are replying to one post rather than several spots in the same post.

It's just the way my brain works.

Is there some prize that I don't know about that happens when I get to 1000 posts?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
I would think that it should be possible for a sensor operator on the incoming ship to detect the powering up of the turret. The question is, would he be able to detect it soon enough to do anything about it?

I think this is a game-mechanic thing.

The Book 2 space combat rules are set in 1000 second combat rounds, and each round is divided up in phases.

We do sensor tasks during the Movement phase.

Your possum example had the possum ship with M-Drive powered down.

Then, the ship came alive and attacked the approaching PC ship.

Game-mechanic's wise, the PCs have no chance to do anything because they detected nothing during their sensor/movement phase, and then, later in the same round (or the beginning of the next round--whoever was going first), the possum ship lit up with its lasers during the Laser fire phase.

I would do this in that scenario:

It takes times for the ship's laser's to charge (which is part of what we're discussing here). If the PC ship detected no weapons sig on the possum vessel, then I wouldn't let the possum vessel open up with its lasers until the laser had been charged.

I'd play this like the ordance launch phase--missiles are launched one round and actually move the next (so PCs with a lock on the have an opportunity to detect the launched missiles after they are launched but before they move since the PCs will get a sensor/movement phase in-between launching and missile movement).

I would do powered down lasers the same way. If the lasers are powered down, then it takes one round to power them up, and they won't be ready to fire until the next round--giving the PCs an opportunity to dected the laser power-up in the intervening PC sensor/movement phase.

So, a ship couldn't power down it's lasers and then use them in the same round.

Now, if the possum vessel's lasers weren't powered down, then this should be told to the PCs when they achieved their lock on the possum vessel. "You are approaching a ship with its M-Drive powered down, but you are detecting high energy readings in what is probably the ship's turrets."

The PCs can act on this info as they see fit. And, if they move in to the possum vessel, well, they've been warned. I wouldn't hesitate to let 'em have it.

Give the incoming ship Initiative and if the Navigator makes a successful Sensor Roll, he will be able to detect that the Possum ship is powering up weapons and his ship can respond accordingly.

This type of thing happens in my game (it happened in our last game two nights ago).

The PCs have a lock on a target vessel, but later (maybe in the next round) they want more, specific info about the target.

I'll either give it to them, if I think that info would already be relayed by the lock. Or, I'll give 'em a sensor task (reading the sensors for a certain type of data) with a +2DM.

Whether or not they pass this roll doesn't effect their lock--it's just to find out if the specific info they wanted was gained.

I am trying to balance the encounter so that no matter what ship the PCs are running, it doesn't get too unbalanced or one of those "OK, your ship just took 20 hits, 4 Critical and your all dead, sorry you didn't get to do anything about it.

Agreed.

It's a great "test" scenario you posited. I think any good system should be able to pass your "possum" test.

I think this new system is passing that test, especially if you consider the "laser powered down" thoughts above.

OK, I'm off my soap box now... just trying to find the game balance.

Stay on your soap box. It's critical thinking like this that drives good rules.

And, I'm very particular about any rules I write or use (if I didn't write them, official or no) being logical, well-thought-out rules.

And simple. They've got to be simple too--easy to use in a game.

I LIKE that you are giving a Gunner something more than an DM to hit at higher skill levels, but I worry that it might be too much.

I don't think so. Check the checks & balances notes I wrote above. I really don't see the Low-Powered attacks unbalancing the game.

I really don't think we'll see them that often in a game because the penalties associated with them are high.

But, they will come into play when one side has either better sensors or a better gunner.

But... that's the effect we're going for, yes?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
I would think that it should be possible for a sensor operator on the incoming ship to detect the powering up of the turret. The question is, would he be able to detect it soon enough to do anything about it?

I think this is a game-mechanic thing.

The Book 2 space combat rules are set in 1000 second combat rounds, and each round is divided up in phases.

We do sensor tasks during the Movement phase.

Your possum example had the possum ship with M-Drive powered down.

Then, the ship came alive and attacked the approaching PC ship.

Game-mechanic's wise, the PCs have no chance to do anything because they detected nothing during their sensor/movement phase, and then, later in the same round (or the beginning of the next round--whoever was going first), the possum ship lit up with its lasers during the Laser fire phase.

I would do this in that scenario:

It takes times for the ship's laser's to charge (which is part of what we're discussing here). If the PC ship detected no weapons sig on the possum vessel, then I wouldn't let the possum vessel open up with its lasers until the laser had been charged.

I'd play this like the ordance launch phase--missiles are launched one round and actually move the next (so PCs with a lock on the have an opportunity to detect the launched missiles after they are launched but before they move since the PCs will get a sensor/movement phase in-between launching and missile movement).

I would do powered down lasers the same way. If the lasers are powered down, then it takes one round to power them up, and they won't be ready to fire until the next round--giving the PCs an opportunity to dected the laser power-up in the intervening PC sensor/movement phase.

So, a ship couldn't power down it's lasers and then use them in the same round.

Now, if the possum vessel's lasers weren't powered down, then this should be told to the PCs when they achieved their lock on the possum vessel. "You are approaching a ship with its M-Drive powered down, but you are detecting high energy readings in what is probably the ship's turrets."

The PCs can act on this info as they see fit. And, if they move in to the possum vessel, well, they've been warned. I wouldn't hesitate to let 'em have it.

Give the incoming ship Initiative and if the Navigator makes a successful Sensor Roll, he will be able to detect that the Possum ship is powering up weapons and his ship can respond accordingly.

This type of thing happens in my game (it happened in our last game two nights ago).

The PCs have a lock on a target vessel, but later (maybe in the next round) they want more, specific info about the target.

I'll either give it to them, if I think that info would already be relayed by the lock. Or, I'll give 'em a sensor task (reading the sensors for a certain type of data) with a +2DM.

Whether or not they pass this roll doesn't effect their lock--it's just to find out if the specific info they wanted was gained.

I am trying to balance the encounter so that no matter what ship the PCs are running, it doesn't get too unbalanced or one of those "OK, your ship just took 20 hits, 4 Critical and your all dead, sorry you didn't get to do anything about it.

Agreed.

It's a great "test" scenario you posited. I think any good system should be able to pass your "possum" test.

I think this new system is passing that test, especially if you consider the "laser powered down" thoughts above.

OK, I'm off my soap box now... just trying to find the game balance.

Stay on your soap box. It's critical thinking like this that drives good rules.

And, I'm very particular about any rules I write or use (if I didn't write them, official or no) being logical, well-thought-out rules.

And simple. They've got to be simple too--easy to use in a game.

I LIKE that you are giving a Gunner something more than an DM to hit at higher skill levels, but I worry that it might be too much.

I don't think so. Check the checks & balances notes I wrote above. I really don't see the Low-Powered attacks unbalancing the game.

I really don't think we'll see them that often in a game because the penalties associated with them are high.

But, they will come into play when one side has either better sensors or a better gunner.

But... that's the effect we're going for, yes?

 

[Supplement Four]

This thread has morphed or matured on us. I started a new threat about the proposed changes to Book 2 Space Combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

This thread has morphed or matured on us. I started a new threat about the proposed changes to Book 2 Space Combat.

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by WJP:
But, as you know, Book 2 space combat is really 16.67 minutes (1000 seconds).

Like you, I'd probably go with the minute thing. I was just keeping the 1000 seconds in there for purists.

It also makes the math a lot easier... the physics is correct:

1G (round to 10 m/s^2) acceleration for 1000 seconds = 10000KM distance travelled and 10KM/s velocity change.

Easier to divide by 10 and go 100 second segments; 1000 KM distance and 1 KM/s velocity change per G.

Then factor this to multiples of 5 minutes (3 100-second segments):

5 minutes = 3000 KM / 3 KM/s per G
10 minutes = 6000 KM / 3 KM/s per G

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by WJP:
But, as you know, Book 2 space combat is really 16.67 minutes (1000 seconds).

Like you, I'd probably go with the minute thing. I was just keeping the 1000 seconds in there for purists.

It also makes the math a lot easier... the physics is correct:

1G (round to 10 m/s^2) acceleration for 1000 seconds = 10000KM distance travelled and 10KM/s velocity change.

Easier to divide by 10 and go 100 second segments; 1000 KM distance and 1 KM/s velocity change per G.

Then factor this to multiples of 5 minutes (3 100-second segments):

5 minutes = 3000 KM / 3 KM/s per G
10 minutes = 6000 KM / 3 KM/s per G

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by MaineCoon:
1G (round to 10 m/s^2) acceleration for 1000 seconds = 10000KM distance travelled and 10KM/s velocity change.

This part, I know. But, I'll admit, I just fudge it to 15 minute combat rounds in my game ... just for simplicity.

It's easier for me to tell the players that the combat round is 15 minutes, rather than 1000 seconds. Since the personal combat round is 15 seconds, it makes simple sense to them.

Yep, I'm jipping them out of 1.67 minutes of thrust each round. But, that's true across the board, good guys and bad guys, so I haven't worried about it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by MaineCoon:
1G (round to 10 m/s^2) acceleration for 1000 seconds = 10000KM distance travelled and 10KM/s velocity change.

This part, I know. But, I'll admit, I just fudge it to 15 minute combat rounds in my game ... just for simplicity.

It's easier for me to tell the players that the combat round is 15 minutes, rather than 1000 seconds. Since the personal combat round is 15 seconds, it makes simple sense to them.

Yep, I'm jipping them out of 1.67 minutes of thrust each round. But, that's true across the board, good guys and bad guys, so I haven't worried about it.

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by WJP:

It's easier for me to tell the players that the combat round is 15 minutes, rather than 1000 seconds. Since the personal combat round is 15 seconds, it makes simple sense to them.

Yep, I'm jipping them out of 1.67 minutes of thrust each round. But, that's true across the board, good guys and bad guys, so I haven't worried about it.

I guess my point was, if you want perfect accuracy, and want exactly 15 minute rounds, then just shift from from 10K km / 10 km/s to 9K KM / 9 km/s; small adjustments to range band are necessary too. But 10% fudge isn't bad at all .

 

[MaineCoon]

Originally posted by WJP:

It's easier for me to tell the players that the combat round is 15 minutes, rather than 1000 seconds. Since the personal combat round is 15 seconds, it makes simple sense to them.

Yep, I'm jipping them out of 1.67 minutes of thrust each round. But, that's true across the board, good guys and bad guys, so I haven't worried about it.

I guess my point was, if you want perfect accuracy, and want exactly 15 minute rounds, then just shift from from 10K km / 10 km/s to 9K KM / 9 km/s; small adjustments to range band are necessary too. But 10% fudge isn't bad at all .

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cymew:
The PP rating is one I miss. So, according to your method a Far Trader 200dton with M-1 and J-2 has a PP-B then?

Yes.

A Corsair 440dton, M-3, J-2 has a PP-J, right?

No, not on that one.

That would be PP F.

See, the PP has to give performace at least as high as either the M drive or the J drive.

To push a 400 ton vessel with an M-3 drive, that would require a PP F (see ... PP F gives performance 3). To push a 400 ton vessel with a J-2 drive, you need a PP D or E. But, we've got to cover the M-3, so we go with the higher drive.

The easiest way to figure this (and it's very simple) is just to pick the bigger drive number (either M drive or J drive), and see which code that is. Your PP will be the same code.

For example: a 1200 ton liner with M-3 and J-2. M-3 is bigger, so we look that up. 1000 ton vessel needs a PP Q to push that drive (better and more expensive vessels will have PP R-U, allowing them to take damage in combat).


Real quick.

I love LBB2.
</font>[/QUOTE]I figured I had to round up to the next bigger hull. Probably makes more sense to round down.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Computer model is actually in there.

Well then, with the quick calc for the PP code, you've got all you need to use those sensor rules.

Computer Model number.
PP code
Sensor Class.

Boom. You're done. You can use the sensor rules now, with MT ships. </font>[/QUOTE]Now I only have to modify the to-hit and damage system to suit me. Soon I'll be using LBB2...

Thanks for helping me understand the beauty of LBB2! It ironically makes me understand MT better. Sorry for hijacking your thread!

 

[Cymew]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cymew:
The PP rating is one I miss. So, according to your method a Far Trader 200dton with M-1 and J-2 has a PP-B then?

Yes.

A Corsair 440dton, M-3, J-2 has a PP-J, right?

No, not on that one.

That would be PP F.

See, the PP has to give performace at least as high as either the M drive or the J drive.

To push a 400 ton vessel with an M-3 drive, that would require a PP F (see ... PP F gives performance 3). To push a 400 ton vessel with a J-2 drive, you need a PP D or E. But, we've got to cover the M-3, so we go with the higher drive.

The easiest way to figure this (and it's very simple) is just to pick the bigger drive number (either M drive or J drive), and see which code that is. Your PP will be the same code.

For example: a 1200 ton liner with M-3 and J-2. M-3 is bigger, so we look that up. 1000 ton vessel needs a PP Q to push that drive (better and more expensive vessels will have PP R-U, allowing them to take damage in combat).


Real quick.

I love LBB2.
</font>[/QUOTE]I figured I had to round up to the next bigger hull. Probably makes more sense to round down.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Computer model is actually in there.

Well then, with the quick calc for the PP code, you've got all you need to use those sensor rules.

Computer Model number.
PP code
Sensor Class.

Boom. You're done. You can use the sensor rules now, with MT ships. </font>[/QUOTE]Now I only have to modify the to-hit and damage system to suit me. Soon I'll be using LBB2...

Thanks for helping me understand the beauty of LBB2! It ironically makes me understand MT better. Sorry for hijacking your thread!