Settler equipment list

[rancke]

While its true that CO2 is heavier and can sink such as the event at Lake Nyos in Cameroon, atmospheric mixing caused by weather events keeps the troposphere well mixed with significant variation only in water vapor ( it condenses out ) and ozone ( its formed at high altitudes ).

Do you know this for a fact, or is it just something that seems obvious to you?

Note that the CO2 mass from Lake Nyos dispersed in a short time; the event occurred at about 9pm yet people returned without ill effect by first light the next morning.

The CO2 mass from Lake Nyos was large enough to create a temporary, localized concentration that hugged the ground on the way down and stayed concentrated enough to kill people for a while. But compared to Earth's entire atmosphere it was a minuscule amount. On Anderson's world (and on Forboldn ) the entire atmosphere is shot through with large amounts of CO2. I don't think the two situations can be regarded as analogous.

It rather a big mistake for someone like Anderson (who was an ardent world-builder) to make. OTOH, he wasn't a professional climatologist, so perhaps he did indeed get it wrong.

I like the idea of the world for being interesting, but I'm afraid it is not accurate to the real world.

I can only refer to my two previous posts. I'm not convinced it's not accurate, but if it isn't, I'm still going with the dramatic possibilities rather than scientific accuracy.

I also would be interested in looking into the climatology of Forboldn based on the map here:
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/moor/wikis/forboldn-background-information

Wow. That's an impressive amount of work that's been done there. I wonder if the author of the parts I didn't write would permit me to use the map and the additional NPCs in my articles? Not that I have any plans for using any of the NPCs right now, but it would be nice to have a map to refer to.


Hans

 

[Peter Newman]

Check 101 Robots. If you can find a copy. (I know of one copy in Anchorage... but it's not mine and not for sale.)

Of course it's for sale - but only for a price so much higher than the going market price that I''m confident I'll be able to buy another copy and still come out ahead on the deal....

 

[Ishmael]

Do you know this for a fact, or is it just something that seems obvious to you?

I know it for a fact.

 

[rancke]

I know it for a fact.

How?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

One thing I must agree with Ishmael is that if gases were so separated by layers, nitrogen will go to the upper atmosphere, as its molecular weigh (28) is lower than O2 (32). So we will have a CO2 (molecular weight 44) rich atmosphere at sea level, an O2 rich at medium hights and a N2 rich atmosphere at high layers.

I don't know the effect will have the fact that atmosphere being dense. For one way, it should raise the effect of the Arkimedes law (so dividing them in layers), but on the other hand it's likely to have heavier winds and atmospheric fenomenons ,that are what merge them again...

EDIT: also the higher gravity of Forboldn (relative to Earth) should (I guess) help to separate the elements by layers (at least theretically).

I don't know what will be the true effect of all those factors once added, but I guess they will cancel one another at the end.

 

[Ishmael]

How?


Hans

Are you asking about how to go about doing basic research? Cross checking information? Looking at data?*

If you are simply asking for me to cite the sources I drew my information from, I think I'll decline for now.

*( I feel your question "How?" to be rude; I don't need to defend my position as much as you need to defend yours concerning Forboldn's atmosphere. I also take offence at the implication that I don't have a clue concerning the topic of 'atmosphere'.)

 

[rancke]

*( I feel your question "How?" to be rude;

I felt it was an entirely appropriate response to your very short and uninformative answer.

I still do.

I don't need to defend my position as much as you need to defend yours concerning Forboldn's atmosphere.

I've already presented my evidence, such as it is, and acknowledged that it is very slim. It basically rests on my faith in a science fiction author who is well known for researching the worlds he writes about in considerable scientific detail.

I also take offence at the implication that I don't have a clue concerning the topic of 'atmosphere'.)

Why should I assume that you have a clue concerning the topic of 'atmosphere'? I don't myself. And the example you used to back up your claim sounded quite flimsy to me, an analogy that did not seem to me to be sound. (Though I don't rule out the possibility that I'm wrong about that.)

So, yes, if you want to convince me that your claim is correct, you do need to cite your sources (or credentials, in case you're a professional climatologist). In other words, present some evidence that you do have a clue about 'atmosphere'.

Of course, if you don't want to contribute any further to this tangential discussion, that's entirely up to you. I won't take the least bit of offense if your desire to correct my ignorance is too low for you to bother any further.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I also would be interested in looking into the climatology of Forboldn based on the map here:
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/moor/wikis/forboldn-background-information

Nick does do great work, I was a player in that campaign.

 

[mike wightman]

Hans, I think what he is basically saying is go and learn the basic physics of the gas laws.

Maxwell-Boltzman distribution, kinetic theory of gases, thermodynamics, diffusion - that sort of thing.

A quick summary is gases mix very easily and very well and molecular mass differences have very little affect once the mixing has occurred.

That said, very light gases eventually boil off into space depending on gravity.

 

[Ishmael]

I felt it was an entirely appropriate response to your very short and uninformative answer.

I still do.

Your question had 2 possible responses. I gave the correct one. It provided exactly the information you requested.

I've already presented my evidence, such as it is, and acknowledged that it is very slim. It basically rests on my faith in a science fiction author who is well known for researching the worlds he writes about in considerable scientific detail.

I haven't read the story you refer to, but I did find a tiny bit of info about it and its atmosphere. The very high pressure atmosphere would cause highly elevated partial pressures, resulting in oxygen toxicity at the lower elevations. Given that there is no stratification of CO2 at lower levels, there would still be the elevated partial pressures for CO2 as atmospheric pressures increase. A partial pressure of 75mmHg or more can be deadly. Because the composition of the atmosphere at these levels is uniform, that'd mean that the partial pressures of oxygen will be elevated as well possibly entering into a toxic amount, especially as hypercapnia causes rapid deep breathing and increased heart-rate.

Why should I assume that you have a clue concerning the topic of 'atmosphere'? I don't myself. And the example you used to back up your claim sounded quite flimsy to me, an analogy that did not seem to me to be sound. (Though I don't rule out the possibility that I'm wrong about that.)

Because in post#148, I brought up these issues, along with the reasons and even the generally accepted terminology along with what the terms were? Because I brought up the question of the possible early beginning of runaway greenhouse along with a link that described what I was referring to?

For the example of Lake Nyos, it was not the amount of CO2, but rather the rapidity with which the CO2 cloud dispersed as opposed to remaining stratified with respect to the rest of the atmosphere that was the point.
The has been no descriptions of where the CO2 on Forboldn came from as far as I could see. Volcanism is the most logical, but that'd come with its own issues.... particulates in the atmosphere causing a global 'nuclear winter' scenario until the dust settled out and planetary albedo return to 'normal'.

Frankly, I don't care if I convince you. I was merely bringing up issues that might be interesting or else ones that should be dealt with before they became problems.
I took offence that your questions "Do you know this for a fact, or is it just something that seems obvious to you?" and "How?"; they come across as dismissive simply because what I stated did not match your vision for this world.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Settle down, everyone, let's keep it civil.