Settler equipment list

[Carlobrand]

still a much better track record than any one jet airline...

I trust you can provide comparative mileage figures in support of the assertion.

... As another poster has already pointed out, it's not fair to consider the safety record of a nascent technology and then project it to a situation where airships may have been in use for thousands of years...
Anyway, we've probably digressed a bit from the point of the original post, and Ranke's been very patient with us, so I'm going to stop banging on about airships.

Agreed - I wouldn't have any problem with a dirigible on Regina. At TL4 and on a world with limited industry, I worry if they're up to the task. And, agreed. I still think a simple tethered hot-air balloon would be a useful add to the settlement.

 

[77topaz]

This adaptation occurs, to an extent to those peoples affected by chronical lungs disease (such as heavy smokers), whose breathing becomes more regulated by the lack of oxigen in their bloodstream than by the lowering of pH due to CO2.

So, if one person may (slightly) adapt in his lifetime, I guess adaptation by the full community, exposed to high CO2 since birth, will need quite less time than you expect.

We don't know the exact percentage of CO2 in Forboldn's atmosphere, but it's rated as 9, not as A (wich will mean totally unbreathable, but not toxic levels, I guess on the range up to 7.5% you cited above) nor B (toxic, wich will probably mean more than 7.5-10%). I guess those levels would be among 1-3%, but the main problem would be lack of oxigen. Of course, this is only my guess...

"A" means an exotic atmosphere, which means you need an oxygen mask/tanks because the atmosphere is unbreathable, but otherwise you don't need any extra protection. "B" means the atmosphere is actually corrosive to human flesh, so you need protection suits. "C" means the atmosphere is so insidious that even a suit will fail after a certain period, so you need, at least, some sort of ship.

 

[McPerth]

"A" means an exotic atmosphere, which means you need an oxygen mask/tanks because the atmosphere is unbreathable, but otherwise you don't need any extra protection. "B" means the atmosphere is actually corrosive to human flesh, so you need protection suits. "C" means the atmosphere is so insidious that even a suit will fail after a certain period, so you need, at least, some sort of ship.

I used the A knowing it, it's an unbreathable atmosphere, but you'd only need oxigen suplements. In this case, only oxigen nasal tubes will probably do it.

About the B, you're right: my memory betrayed me (I had not my books when I wrote it). I used it as toxic instead of corrosive, but, in fact, it could be even mildly corrosive, due to acidic efect. Yet so It was my fault, and the main effect will be toxic, not corrosive (more so being a low hidrographic, and so probably low humidity, planet, as for the CO2 to be acidic you need also water).

 

[rancke]

I used the A knowing it, it's an unbreathable atmosphere, but you'd only need oxigen suplements. In this case, only oxigen nasal tubes will probably do it.

Forboldn's atmosphere is 9, dense, tainted, so there is oxygen enough to breathe but you need a filter mask. The bit about not needing filter masks in the highlands is an additional twist.

I'm not going to claim that Poul Anderson was right 50 years ago and current science is wrong, but unless current science can be made to provide the setting/game effect that I want, I'm going to ignore the science and rely on the fiction.

I like it when the science in Traveller is correct. It increases the vesimilitude of the setting and lower the required willing suspension of disbelief. But to me the science is always secondary to the game. I'm all for correct science, everything else being equal.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Forboldn's atmosphere is 9, dense, tainted, so there is oxygen enough to breathe but you need a filter mask. The bit about not needing filter masks in the highlands is an additional twist.

It seems either I didn't explain myself as well as I intended (after all english is not my native language) or you skipped the post where I also pointed Forboldn atmosphere is 9, not A or B (also understandable, on such a hot thread). I cited A and B atmospheres just to explain why I think the percentage of CO2 in Forboldn is low enough to allow for adaptation:

This adaptation occurs, to an extent to those peoples affected by chronical lungs disease (such as heavy smokers), whose breathing becomes more regulated by the lack of oxigen in their bloodstream than by the lowering of pH due to CO2.

So, if one person may (slightly) adapt in his lifetime, I guess adaptation by the full community, exposed to high CO2 since birth, will need quite less time than you expect.

We don't know the exact percentage of CO2 in Forboldn's atmosphere, but it's rated as 9, not as A (wich will mean totally unbreathable, but not toxic levels, I guess on the range up to 7.5% you cited above) nor B (toxic, wich will probably mean more than 7.5-10%). I guess those levels would be among 1-3%, but the main problem would be lack of oxigen. Of course, this is only my guess...

Note: I quoted my post as original, even if I admited later the use of atmosphere code B is flawed on it.

 

[morfydd]

I trust you can provide comparative mileage figures in support of the assertion.

Air Ships..157 deaths in 111 years of commercial operation of airships by all nations ...(not counting military ships lost during wars)
~ 1 death per million km travelled (total of all years)
2011 - 897 deaths in one year of commercial operations..does not include private owned or military ..
~ 2 deaths per million KM travelled for 2011 (safest year to date)
Two worst incidents in airship operations ..Hindenburg 35 dead R101 48 dead .
average casulty of a commercial jetliner involves 150+ deaths ..
yes I think Air ships are safer

 

[morfydd]

Equipment

back to the op..Spinward had the list about right I think or at least along the lines of what your looking for ..
after going over it a few times and thinking how close they are not going to be to civilization ...geared down is the only way to go ..parts from the port are pretty much out for regular maintenace ..parts from "town" fall into the same category..with only 200 people they will not be on the main transport routes for awhile..unless they start producing enough to trade with other towns ...animal power, small scale mining,smelting and forge operation are in order ..(easy enough) not going full scale commercial don't need it need to be able to make parts ..so steam, wind, muscle and water for power they can all be done cottage level ...Internal Combustion engines require far closer tolernaces than a steam engine..so are far more difficult for the blacksmith to make parts for ..steam engine parts are no more difficult to make than wagon parts or horseshoes..if you dont mind trading off efficency for maintainability ..(yea it leaks a tiny bot of steam from all the joints till its fully up to temp but it works well for a long time) fired bricks are easy to make from any source of clay ..Iron ore is easy to find and easy to smelt .copper and tin even simpler to do and most work that can be done in Iron can be done in bronze as well ...

 

[Ishmael]

Thinking about why such an abundance of CO2 is interesting.

Gave me a reason to polish up what I understand about the carbon cycle here on Earth, the role of CO2 in icehouse and greenhouse worlds, and what sort of events in the prehistoric records of the world can change these sorts of things.

Also, considering climate and an atmosphere's general circulation ( Hadley cells and polar cells, etc.) why is the CO2 concentrated only at the extreme lower altitudes and not relatively evenly distributed? The heterosphere is above the stratosphere and mesosphere...about 100km for Earth. That's above the turbopause and at these very high altitudes, gases do separate into layers based on molecular weight. Below the mesosphere is the homosphere where gases are mixed.

What happens if the lapse rate doesn't allow for water vapor to condense out below an ozone layer thus letting the oceans slowly boil away into space as H2O photo-dissociates? Is Forboldn at the very beginning of runaway greenhouse? Or will the CO2 eventually be locked away again in the crust.
http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s9.htm

What might this imply about the geologic activity level or fossil record?

Something to think about....

 

[Carlobrand]

Air Ships..157 deaths in 111 years of commercial operation of airships by all nations ...(not counting military ships lost during wars)
~ 1 death per million km travelled (total of all years)
2011 - 897 deaths in one year of commercial operations..does not include private owned or military ..
~ 2 deaths per million KM travelled for 2011 (safest year to date)
Two worst incidents in airship operations ..Hindenburg 35 dead R101 48 dead .
average casulty of a commercial jetliner involves 150+ deaths ..
yes I think Air ships are safer

Not to be picky about it - this is interesting - but where are you getting the million kilometers over 111 years for "air ships"? Is this just dirigibles or all types of lighter-than-air craft?

Also, why are your airline death rates 100 times higher than my sources? All my sources are talking about passenger deaths per hundred million or billion passenger kilometers (or miles for the American sources). NTSB talks about 1 to 2 deaths per hundred thousand flight hours, which unless those planes are flying at 10kph suggests a rate far below your 2 per million entry.

http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/pubs/p133 Transportation Safety Chapter.pdf

http://www.mackinac.org/5773

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2006/060317.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_safety

There were NO deaths on U.S. commercial airlines in 2010 OR 2011, with over 800 billion passenger miles flown each of those years.

 

[Omnivore]

No longer a contributor to this board.

 

[morfydd]

[Snipped}

I really do not want to hijack the ops thread ..and I sencerly applogize I just hope he finds a bit of this usefull ..like dont use hydrogen ..its bad ..
opened new thread this is digressing to far moved and snipped please reply to new thread ...
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=395592#post395592

 

[morfydd]

Other Considerations

with a hydro of 3 (25 to 34% water coverage) I am seeing that there may be less rain fall so most of the land is going to be semi arid regions (like the Gobi, Christmass Valley, Much of the american southwest has high deserts .. Patagonia desert (south america)..all are somewhat fertile if irrigated ..so getting water to the feilds may be one of the challenges they face ...

 

[Strummist]

I was just thinking about water - specifically drinking water and sewage treatment. That's crucial. You're going to need a few people with skills in that area.

 

[McPerth]

I'm not sure if it has already been suggested, but another thing I'd take is wind mills. With dense atmosphere they will surely be useful, be them to produce electricity, raw mechanical power, raise water from underground, grind grain or other fruits, or whatever they will, but it's a power source nearly unlimited and maintainable at TL 4 (and even before).

The following skilled personell of at least journeyman level of skill

herbalist

While I agree in most the profesionals you cite as useful for the colony, the herbalist intrigued me a little. Wouldn't be better a botanist?

I understand a herbalist as somone familiar with flora and its uses (mostly medicinal, but also others), and you don't have such a person familiar with Forboldn flora.

A botanist, on the other hand, may help to catalog this fauna and find uses for it (working along with your chemist). He can even help to adapt offplanet flora, if they want.

And, off course, all those highly trained profesionals (botanist, doctor, chemist, etc) wil lalso imaprt classes at the school, as to keep their knowledge for next generations...

 

[McPerth]

Thinking about why such an abundance of CO2 is interesting.

Gave me a reason to polish up what I understand about the carbon cycle here on Earth, the role of CO2 in icehouse and greenhouse worlds, and what sort of events in the prehistoric records of the world can change these sorts of things.

Also, considering climate and an atmosphere's general circulation ( Hadley cells and polar cells, etc.) why is the CO2 concentrated only at the extreme lower altitudes and not relatively evenly distributed? The heterosphere is above the stratosphere and mesosphere...about 100km for Earth. That's above the turbopause and at these very high altitudes, gases do separate into layers based on molecular weight. Below the mesosphere is the homosphere where gases are mixed.

What happens if the lapse rate doesn't allow for water vapor to condense out below an ozone layer thus letting the oceans slowly boil away into space as H2O photo-dissociates? Is Forboldn at the very beginning of runaway greenhouse? Or will the CO2 eventually be locked away again in the crust.
http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s9.htm

What might this imply about the geologic activity level or fossil record?

Something to think about....

And even so, at high altitudes the percentage of oxigen (heavier than nitrogen) decreases, to the point that if you climb high mountains you get dizzy due to oxigen deprivation...

 

[rancke]

And even so, at high altitudes the percentage of oxigen (heavier than nitrogen) decreases, to the point that if you climb high mountains you get dizzy due to oxigen deprivation...

As I understood Anderson, CO2 is heavier than O2 and concentrates faster, if that's the word I want, at lower altitudes than O2 does. There is presumably less oxygen in the highlands, but there's a lot less CO2.

His books did not mention oxygen concentration being dangerously high in the lowlands of Rustum, so I did not make the oxygen concentration in the lowlands of Forboldn dangerous. Or, more precisely, I didn't think about it at all.


Hans

 

[morfydd]

I'm not sure if it has already been suggested, but another thing I'd take is wind mills. With dense atmosphere they will surely be useful, be them to produce electricity, raw mechanical power, raise water from underground, grind grain or other fruits, or whatever they will, but it's a power source nearly unlimited and maintainable at TL 4 (and even before).



While I agree in most the profesionals you cite as useful for the colony, the herbalist intrigued me a little. Wouldn't be better a botanist?

I understand a herbalist as somone familiar with flora and its uses (mostly medicinal, but also others), and you don't have such a person familiar with Forboldn flora.

A botanist, on the other hand, may help to catalog this fauna and find uses for it (working along with your chemist). He can even help to adapt offplanet flora, if they want.

And, off course, all those highly trained profesionals (botanist, doctor, chemist, etc) wil lalso imaprt classes at the school, as to keep their knowledge for next generations...

aye agreed need the botanist as well .but some knowledge of herbalism as well .. so to create the person that can grow the plants with healing properties ..they wont have access to an entire mudical industry for first aid and daily ailments but will have to either grow their own imported herbs and figure out what local fauna is usefull ...

 

[77topaz]

with a hydro of 3 (25 to 34% water coverage) I am seeing that there may be less rain fall so most of the land is going to be semi arid regions (like the Gobi, Christmass Valley, Much of the american southwest has high deserts .. Patagonia desert (south america)..all are somewhat fertile if irrigated ..so getting water to the feilds may be one of the challenges they face ...

Unless their land is next to a sea, of course. Or a river.

 

[McPerth]

Unless their land is next to a sea, of course. Or a river.

Iguess near the sea has been ruled out due to atmosphere, better lake (as Lausana or Titicaca might be on Earth), if there remains any such location free in the planet...

 

[Ishmael]

And even so, at high altitudes the percentage of oxigen (heavier than nitrogen) decreases, to the point that if you climb high mountains you get dizzy due to oxigen deprivation...

I'm sorry, but that is simply incorrect.
The percentage of oxygen does not decrease. The density of the atmosphere decreases meaning that amount of all gasses decreases.

While its true that CO2 is heavier and can sink such as the event at Lake Nyos in Cameroon, atmospheric mixing caused by weather events keeps the troposphere well mixed with significant variation only in water vapor ( it condenses out ) and ozone ( its formed at high altitudes ).

Note that the CO2 mass from Lake Nyos dispersed in a short time; the event occurred at about 9pm yet people returned without ill effect by first light the next morning.

I like the idea of the world for being interesting, but I'm afraid it is not accurate to the real world.
I think the CO2 levels point to a fairly high level of geologic activity and that perhaps Forboldn is just past the tipping point for runaway greenhouse.

I also would be interested in looking into the climatology of Forboldn based on the map here:
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/moor/wikis/forboldn-background-information