Shipyard Production

[AnotherDilbert]

You need two crews each for sustained operations - blue/gold. Ships generally can be working 11/12 of the year, crews considerably less.

Also, capital ships crews run more than 1000 on a ready basis. So... probably 2 to 3 million crew. Nominal "tail" runs 8 to 12 times the number of men rated as crew needs - 8 for blue/gold, 12 for long-term remote ship ops (plus extra hulls for supplies). Each man needs 1/150 Td of life support supplies per week after the 4th (because 4 weeks is the default), so, 7-10 tons per week per battlecruiser on a minimum once-per-four week replacement schedule,

A fast resupply ship (J5) is probably about 10% of its hull in capacity... so a ARF is is likely to service a 'ron - 8-10, let's call it 10 for safety, like any good admiral - so that's a 1000Td J5 hull with 100 tons cargo and a crew of about 25. (It's got turrets, because of mission danger. no spinals, bays, nor barbettes.) And you want 4x that for actual combat, because you need to have it jump to the courier, then jump to the fleet's planned location (which base may not actually know).

And then you need fuelling auxiliaries. They really can't be better than J4 and do their job... which is not a tanker, but a self-mobile processor and fuelling depot. We can make them with crews of about 15-20... J4 for fleet speed, and about 1000 tons - external inflatables seem the way to go for extra tank space. How many do we need? figure at least one per 'ron. Probably 1 per capship, 1-2 per desron (and a cru-ron has 8-10 cruisers, each with a DE as well, so essentially a desron is built into each cruron and batron)...

And all of these need tail, too.your 1100 warships have 2000-3000 auxiliaries, minimum, possibly more - up to about 5K...

I agree about the need for a logistical tail. I would assume the warships needed more materiel, but that they would skim and process their own fuel.

In 1940 the US had about 132 million population. During WW2 the Navy enlisted (not drafted) about 2 million people. This is not the peacetime level of 1 in 1000, but a major war effort of 1 in 66 people, let's round it down to 1%.

Amdani & Kimel has ~170 billion population. 1% of that is 1.7 billion people we might persuade to enlist. From that 1.7 billion I think we can scrape together 1 million or 100 million ship's crew.

If we start drafting we might draft 20 billion, or perhaps 40 billion in a pinch. Most would go to the ground forces, but we might spare a few hundred million for the Navy.

If we still lack people the sector has a population of ~1.6 trillion. We might persuade 16 billion to enlist and draft another 160 billion.

I do not think we have any hope of equipping 16 billion sailors or 160 billion troopers with the Imperial economy. I maintain that finding warm bodies is not the major problem.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Where I'm going with this: I'm looking a hypothetical Daibei sector during the Rim War. Using the T20 Fighting Ship supplements I've got a reasonable handle on what the initial naval assets might have looked like. Assuming the borders stabilized around 993, I was curious how those naval assets, particularly capital ships, might have changed by the time the Imperium started to advance in 998.

...

The results are . . . a ridiculous amount of ships.

During WW2 the US built ~30 fleet carriers and battleships, and perhaps 100 smaller carriers and cruisers (wiki again, please correct me) with a population of 132 million.

Amdani has a pop of 90 billion, about 700 times the population of the US then. Using the same scale Amdani could build something like 20000 battleships and 70000 cruisers. That is obviously ridiculous, but perhaps 600 cruisers, as the OP calculated, is not totally out of order?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

We also know Dulinor's draft was seen as unprecedented and that the Chattering Classes disapproved.

Agreed, no draft in the Frontier Wars, or the Solomani Rim War.

Given real world examples we can still hope to enlist 1 or 2 billion personnel each on Amdani and Kimel for a major war. We have another ~10 Pop A worlds with stellar tech in the sector to supply ground troops.

Amdani and Kimel could supply perhaps 3 billion sailors together. If we assume that 1 in 10 serve afloat at any given time that is 300 million crew, and that 1 in 10 is aboard warships that is 30 million warship crew.

If we assume about 10 crew per kT warship that would be about 3 billion dT of warship we could man. That would be roughly 15000 capital ships à 100 kT with an equal weight in escorts. That is basically the entire Imperial Navy. It would suggest we can recruit the personnel the sector fleet requires.

 

[Garnfellow]

AnotherDilbert,

Thank you for the helpful data on losses and shipyard capacity. In addition, if you assume capital ships have a useful lifespan of 50-100 years in the OTU, then in 5 years you are also replacing 5-10% of the ships through obsolescence on top of battle losses.

Amdani is huge. It has at a guess 5 - 10% of the entire sectors capacity, more of the sectors TL15 capacity.

Daibei has several other enormous high pop worlds that lack shipyards in 1105. In developing the sector for 990 I am regressing populations and TL, but in some cases upgrading starports.

For example, Zhemi, Cruxway, and Hermes are all high pop, industrialized worlds with TLs of C+ but crappy Starports in 1105. (Dudin and Orvon don't quite hit all those points but are close.) All of these worlds give their names to subsectors and all but Zhemi would have been within the Solomani Autonomous Region and likely within the Confederation at the outbreak of the Rim War. All end the War within the Imperium.

To me, any of these worlds would be good candidates to have had Class A starports and associated shipyards in 990. My assumption is that the shipyards were either destroyed during war or forcefully decommissioned during Reconstruction.

I imagine the Starport Authority would purposefully use starport development as both a carrot and stick to induce cooperation with occupied worlds. So a mainworld like Kimel that went along with the program was allowed to keep/upgrade/construct a Class A facility. No naval base, at least not yet.

Perhaps Hermes retains a pro-Solomani dictator, and thus is forced to limp along with a crummy Class D facility and an amber zone.

A sector has 16 fleets + 16 reserve fleets, with an average of 3 Bat or Cru-Ron per fleet that is about 1000 capital ships.

In trying to figure out what the original assets were, I had to figure out the original borders.

We can calculate the original border of the Solomani Autonomous Region. It's a little different if you assume 1 hex = 1 parsec spinward to trailing than if you assume a hex row is 0.877 parsecs spinward to trailing. But in either case we could safely say the Imperium retained subsectors A through H and probably I, the Solomanis were ceded M though P, and subsectors J, K, and L were divided.

Even after the Autonomous Region was established, the Imperium was interfering with border worlds inside the boundary. The pace of this increased after the Autonomous Region was dissolved in 940, when the Imperium began reabsorbing worlds wholesale. Based on a close reading of T20's Shattered Ships of the Solomani Confederation, it appears the Imperium had snagged most worlds within 3 or 4 parsecs of the Diaspora border of the Autonomous Region; seems reasonable for Daibei.

The CT/MT maps of the Solomani sphere allow us to infer where the Confederation borders were after the initial successful Solomani offensive. It looks like at its height the Confederation held a piece of I and J and most of K and L.

This would suggest that at the outset of the War the Imperial Daibei Sector Fleet probably had something like 10 subsector fleets, and the Solomani Daibei Sector Fleet 7-8 subsector fleets. (The Daibei Fleet was charged with protection of Solomani worlds in Reaver's Deep.)

The Solomani Fleet was almost certainly reinforced by elements of the Magyar Fleet for the initial offensive.

 

[Garnfellow]

According to my data the top 10 port worlds in Daibei are:

1. Uston (A100A98-E) : 103.5MdT
2. Zhemi (C89AA8C-E) : 99MdT
3. Amdani (A865AEA-F): 67.5MdT
4. Corve (B572ABA-B): 66MdT
5. Kimel (A555AEH-F): 60MdT
6. Karukhi (C567AED-C): 52MdT
7. Oifuerr (B310AD9-E) : 45MdT
8. Duurmurze (B574A9A-E): 34.5MdT
9. Narya (C877ADD-A): 22.5MdT
10. Conda (A5969CD-E) : 10.8MdT

The GDP calculations from the wiki are done according to the GT:Far Trader rules, not TCS. So they are "wrong" if you use TCS to replicate them.

But don't worlds need Class A starports (and associated shipyards) to construct starships?

 

[Garnfellow]

TCS calculations are "wrong", i.e. non-canonical.

I counted only TL15 world (1105 data), I guess the sector was TL14 max in 990, and guess that the same worlds that are now max TL was max TL then.

So if we simply subtract 1 from all TLs above only Amdani and Kimel were TL14 then.

I do not know the data for 990 so I am just guessing wildly.

That's about what I did. I generally regressed the Imperial worlds 1 TL and the Solomani worlds 2 TLs.

 

[Garnfellow]

So in addition to moving everything down a TL (or possibly more), the population would shrink. Running a 0.5% growth rate backward for 115 years results in a population multiplier of 0.56, and resulting in a smaller population, and a smaller build capacity.

0.5% growth is pretty reasonable compared to 21st century Terra -- but it seems like the Imperium would be even lower. Have you had a chance to look at OTU pop data?

 

[Garnfellow]

Man them.

Seriously.

This was a good thought but I think AnotherDilbert has already made the point I would have: a single 90 billion pop world can provide all the labor we would ever need.

I think there are many, many limiting factors on fleet size that are not accounted for in the TCS calculations, but labor ain't one of them.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That's about what I did. I generally regressed the Imperial worlds 1 TL and the Solomani worlds 2 TLs.

I would not discriminate against the Solomani. They were formally a part of the Imperium, they probably traded freely with the Imperium, and had friends in high places.

I would basically assume both the Imperium and the Solomani were TL14 at this time. The Imperium were on the brink on declaring themselves TL15 so they might have a few TL15 worlds and technological tricks up their sleeve.

 

[flykiller]

You're going to need many more men than you think, you're only going to be able to recruit them from worlds above a certain TL, and you're only going to be able to ship them so far.

mora, trin, glisten, palique, efate, lunion, and strouden should be more than sufficient for the spinward marches, especially given a thousand years of experience and a few wars with the zhodani to provide motivation for long-term preparedness.

and given the presumably large number of high pop/tech worlds on the imperium's interior building fleets and supplying crews for export to the frontier sectors might be standard policy for military capability and social stability. "a new world awaits you in the off-world colonies. a chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure." might explain places like riverland and rethe - they were naval military colonies / dumping grounds ....

 

[AnotherDilbert]

AnotherDilbert,

Thank you for the helpful data on losses and shipyard capacity. In addition, if you assume capital ships have a useful lifespan of 50-100 years in the OTU, then in 5 years you are also replacing 5-10% of the ships through obsolescence on top of battle losses.

At a guess you would not scrap ships during a war, unless you run out of manpower.

Daibei has several other enormous high pop worlds that lack shipyards in 1105. In developing the sector for 990 I am regressing populations and TL, but in some cases upgrading starports.

For example, Zhemi, Cruxway, and Hermes are all high pop, industrialized worlds with TLs of C+ but crappy Starports in 1105. (Dudin and Orvon don't quite hit all those points but are close.) All of these worlds give their names to subsectors and all but Zhemi would have been within the Solomani Autonomous Region and likely within the Confederation at the outbreak of the Rim War. All end the War within the Imperium.

TL C does not qualify, max tech required, whether that is TL13 or TL14 for the Solomani.
Lower tech yards can build support craft.

To me, any of these worlds would be good candidates to have had Class A starports and associated shipyards in 990. My assumption is that the shipyards were either destroyed during war or forcefully decommissioned during Reconstruction.

I imagine the Starport Authority would purposefully use starport development as both a carrot and stick to induce cooperation with occupied worlds. So a mainworld like Kimel that went along with the program was allowed to keep/upgrade/construct a Class A facility. No naval base, at least not yet.

Perhaps Hermes retains a pro-Solomani dictator, and thus is forced to limp along with a crummy Class D facility and an amber zone.

Certainly possible.

In trying to figure out what the original assets were, I had to figure out the original borders.

We can calculate the original border of the Solomani Autonomous Region. It's a little different if you assume 1 hex = 1 parsec spinward to trailing than if you assume a hex row is 0.877 parsecs spinward to trailing. But in either case we could safely say the Imperium retained subsectors A through H and probably I, the Solomanis were ceded M though P, and subsectors J, K, and L were divided.

Even after the Autonomous Region was established, the Imperium was interfering with border worlds inside the boundary. The pace of this increased after the Autonomous Region was dissolved in 940, when the Imperium began reabsorbing worlds wholesale. Based on a close reading of T20's Shattered Ships of the Solomani Confederation, it appears the Imperium had snagged most worlds within 3 or 4 parsecs of the Diaspora border of the Autonomous Region; seems reasonable for Daibei.

The CT/MT maps of the Solomani sphere allow us to infer where the Confederation borders were after the initial successful Solomani offensive. It looks like at its height the Confederation held a piece of I and J and most of K and L.

This would suggest that at the outset of the War the Imperial Daibei Sector Fleet probably had something like 10 subsector fleets, and the Solomani Daibei Sector Fleet 7-8 subsector fleets. (The Daibei Fleet was charged with protection of Solomani worlds in Reaver's Deep.)

The Solomani Fleet was almost certainly reinforced by elements of the Magyar Fleet for the initial offensive.

The numbered fleets and fixed sector fleets are an Imperial organisation scheme. The Solomani might have had other ideas. At a guess the bulk of their forces are concentrated against the Aslan and the Imperium. Terra might have had a massive Home Fleet as a strategic reserve.

When the Solomani started to retake world in 989-990 they would have been ready for war, so have concentrated their forces close to the Imperial border.

 

[mike wightman]

But don't worlds need Class A starports (and associated shipyards) to construct starships?

No, the rules state that any world can build military ships for its planetary navy regardless of civilian starport/shipyard:

a planetary navy may construct ships on i t s planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

 

[aramis]

No, the rules state that any world can build military ships for its planetary navy regardless of civilian starport/shipyard:

TCS in the campaign section states that; it may not be valid outside a dedicated TCS campaign.

 

[mike wightman]

The major omission in TCS to me are the costs associated with building and maintain naval bases.
The rules in TCS and FFW allow a naval base to fully refuel any fleet or fleets that come calling in one turn, repair battle damage etc.
There is a picture in the T5 rulebook (printed version not the latest pdf) that shows Regina highport - on one of its spokes is a tTgress class dreadnaught no bigger than a boil - that highport is huge, so how big are IN stations?

 

[mike wightman]

TCS in the campaign section states that; it may not be valid outside a dedicated TCS campaign.

The quote is from High Guard 2e page 20...

 

[flykiller]

No, the rules state that any world can build military ships for its planetary navy regardless of civilian starport/shipyard:

TCS in the campaign section states that; it may not be valid outside a dedicated TCS campaign.

speaking not in terms of rules but in terms of what is obviously possible, in what sense can a world not have a shipyard dedicated to military construction but not meant to be a starport or civilian shipyard? newport news comes to mind, they don't build tankers or luxury yachts.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The quote is from High Guard 2e page 20...

Interestingly, the planetary navy can build ships locally, but still need a starport A or B for maintenance and repairs. Referee interpretation may be needed.

speaking not in terms of rules but in terms of what is obviously possible, in what sense can a world not have a shipyard dedicated to military construction but not meant to be a starport or civilian shipyard? newport news comes to mind, they don't build tankers or luxury yachts.

Of course, no rule without exception.
Perhaps more likely is some sort of licensing deal with local assembly, as is rather common today with military equipment.

 

[flykiller]

no rule without exception.

seems like everyone who otherwise met the pre-requisites would want an "exception". consider tirem/glisten - pop 9, tech B (that's j2-capable), in the middle of a very significant interstellar trade region - but no yard? seems hinky.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

seems like everyone who otherwise met the pre-requisites would want an "exception". consider tirem/glisten - pop 9, tech B (that's j2-capable), in the middle of a very significant interstellar trade region - but no yard? seems hinky.

The shipyard may have been put out of business by competition from the TL C yard next-door in Ffudn?

I think starport class is a classification scheme, like hotel stars. A class A starport is guaranteed to have all the amenities specified, or at least it had when it was surveyed. If the port does not have refined fuel available it cannot be class A or B, regardless of how large or good a shipyard it has.

 

[Garnfellow]

No, the rules state that any world can build military ships for its planetary navy regardless of civilian starport/shipyard:

Good point, though I was specifically thinking about construction for the Imperial and Confederation navies. Isn't one important attribute of a Class A starport the ability to construct starships? This is distinguished by a Class B port, which can construct spaceships.