Should it be considered non-canon?

[aramis]

And yet, in another thread, you note that your players don't read these materials and this frustrates you.

I'm curious how you square this.

By running other game systems. I've run a few sessions of MegaT in the last few years... but, as a general pattern, I've given up on running Traveller - the local fans are considerably less knowledgeable than they think they are...

Besides, most of the players I know would much rather play Star Wars than Traveller.

 

[Timerover51]

I guess what puzzles me is seeing T4 included in this. Marc wrote that. How can it be non-canon?

 

[77topaz]

I guess what puzzles me is seeing T4 included in this. Marc wrote that. How can it be non-canon?

It was already pointed out earlier in the thread that there were some mistakes in the T4 core rules (e.g. a map of the Sylean subsector that doesn't match with other canon sources). Even Marc Miller is a human being who can make mistakes - if he says two contradictory things about something (such as that subsector), then obviously one of them can't be canon.

 

[Timerover51]

It was already pointed out earlier in the thread that there were some mistakes in the T4 core rules (e.g. a map of the Sylean subsector that doesn't match with other canon sources). Even Marc Miller is a human being who can make mistakes - if he says two contradictory things about something (such as that subsector), then obviously one of them can't be canon.

Why not?

The different maps could be looked at as a case of better information later on. Look at some of the World map from around 1850 and 1900, as see how they are different from current maps. As I see it the map is canon for the T4 rules, just like you have a different canon for each set of rules.

 

[aramis]

A lot of fans reject both TNE and T4 for being incompatible rules and a very different setting... both are, for better or worse, included in Marc's Head-canon, but the veracity of the published materials vis-a-vis the other authors and the gatekeeping thereof... well, let's just say that the individual responsible for doing so didn't do so in line with Marc's vision, nor good business practices, and is currently quite controversial in other aspects of his life.

 

[Timerover51]

A lot of fans reject both TNE and T4 for being incompatible rules and a very different setting... both are, for better or worse, included in Marc's Head-canon, but the veracity of the published materials vis-a-vis the other authors and the gatekeeping thereof... well, let's just say that the individual responsible for doing so didn't do so in line with Marc's vision, nor good business practices, and is currently quite controversial in other aspects of his life.

Yes, I have had some business dealings with that individual.

 

[mike wightman]

T4 is a smoke and mirrors version of Traveller.

Its full title is Marc Miller's Traveller, and a glance at the contributors list in each book is insightful. The T4 core rule book had minimal input from MWM, while the M:0 campaign book doesn't list him as an author at all.

There is a lot of third party material made canon in T4, and a lot of stuff that could/should/may get retconned.

For TNE it is worse - other than a credit for original Traveller game design MWM has no input to TNE at all. Hence he doesn't know the real story behind the empress wave, nor how the events of TNE were originally planned to turn out.

[soapbox]I have said it before and I will doubtless say it again, it is my humble opinion that MWM should use the tools in T5 to ignore previous canon. A certain Jonathan Bland knows there are future events that will destroy his Imperium, there is such a thing as reality manipulation technology. Provide the different setting as 'what if' universes and make a new core history for charted space. 1105+ is sacred of course so the Galaxiad of 1900+ can fill in the details[/soapbox]

 

[Supplement Four]

I consider anything outside of an edition to be non-Canon. Canon should not encompass stuff from different editions. Therefore, there is CT canon, T4 canon, GURPS canon, etc.

 

[mike wightman]

That's one way to do it, but the setting is meant to be common to all. There is a difference between rules canon ie what the rules as written and setting canon ie how the setting works.

The trouble is the setting was always changed to fit the new rules, and upon occasion the rules changed to better describe the setting. The inconsistencies and contradictions just multiplied.

 

[Timerover51]

That's one way to do it, but the setting is meant to be common to all. There is a difference between rules canon ie what the rules as written and setting canon ie how the setting works.

The trouble is the setting was always changed to fit the new rules, and upon occasion the rules changed to better describe the setting. The inconsistencies and contradictions just multiplied.

Which is why I keep saying that each set of rules needs its own setting. There is not much that can be done with respect to the inconsistencies nd contradictions in the various rule sets.

 

[aramis]

Which is why I keep saying that each set of rules needs its own setting. There is not much that can be done with respect to the inconsistencies nd contradictions in the various rule sets.

Actually, there is a way, and it was hinted at by Marc in a mail thread.

Each edition is a different historians faulty view of the time frame, from some point well after M1900.

This unifies them all - any inconsistencies are due to the biases of the simulation programmer...

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I use the unreliable narrator. Works great.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Reavers' Deep and Daibei during The Long Night

I like that as an aspirational goal. There ought to be some algorithmic method of "rolling back" UWPs across a period of time, but it's likely to be a rather complex one.

Oh, you are not Kidding! I did the rollback on two sectors by hand (a little bit of automation, but not nearly enough!) when I made the setting for my SBRD campaign (see below) based on data from TravellerMap.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but TravellerMap already has a rudimentary version of this concept: you can view the maps in several different milieux. Currently, the only milieux before 1105 are the Interstellar Wars, the T4 Milieu 0 and 990 (the Solomani Rim War), but it's a step towards what you're suggesting.

I rolled Reavers' Deep and Daibei sectors back to 3731 AD, a little over halfway through The Long Night, for my SBRD campaign back in 2013-14. I used data from TravellerMap as my starting points, and then used TravellerMap to make my sector and subsector maps (with a lot of help from inexorabletash!), but it was unofficial (definitely non-canon! ) and I don't think my revisions were stored in any way that I could share (if I ever did know how, I've unfortunately forgotten; I'm not sure I even have copy still of the Access DB I used to make my rollbacks). If anyone is interested in that rollback (I hate to see all that work go to waste!), the best way to view it is probably to go to the maps in the SBRD Campaign sub-wiki in Traveller Wiki (thanks again, tjoneslo!); everything is thoroughly clickable, so you can click subsectors on the sector maps to go to the subsector pages, then click individual systems to go to system pages. Here is the Border Map, covering the main campaign area, 12 subsectors along the border between Reavers' Deep and Daibei. Here are the Reavers' Deep and Daibei sector pages; there aren't full-size sector maps, but the mini-maps link to all subsectors.

Spoiler:

(((((MORE PARENTHESES JUST BECAUSE... IT'S LATE! OR EARLY?))))))