I've begun to think that the upper limit for ANY type of ship should be about 50,000 tons. And most of those would be freighters - warships should be about 20,000-30,000 tons. Though it would be sort of a bell curve - they start off small at TL 9, get big between TL 11 and TL 13, and are small again at TL 15.
Small Ships/Big Ships Redux
- Thread starter Vargas
- Start date
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Why would there be limits? Mega corporations would likely use the biggest ships they could just as today they use super tankers and enormous container ships. These would ply between planets that had huge economies in much the same way. It is far cheaper for them to do that than use several smaller ships (one crew versus many, huge ships are harder to take, etc.). Likely in terms of a game these would be more like window dressing than something a party was actually involved with unless they were running trading ships. Then their ship might off load or on load to such a vessel in orbit (think of it like a semi-tractor / trailer loading to a ship or train). In such circumstances small freighers would operate more locally like independent truckers do having consigned loads. The danger would be that the corporation running the big ship or, others who have knowledge of loads might try and hijack specific loads from the small ships once they depart the big one.
The same goes for naval vessels. Really big ones would be window dressing most of the time. That is, there are several in a system because that is where they are stationed. They don't bother with little ships and such or get involved in local police / customs activities. But, they would add color to the game.
The same goes for naval vessels. Really big ones would be window dressing most of the time. That is, there are several in a system because that is where they are stationed. They don't bother with little ships and such or get involved in local police / customs activities. But, they would add color to the game.
Why should the upper limit be 50,000T? Is that a logical maximum given the underlying tech assumptions, or will it improve the setting in terms of roleplaying potential? Or what?
Hans
Depends on the rules you're using, I think. If it's HG and MT, then the warships may want the biggest spines possible. If you can fit that into a 50kt hull, then maybe you're right. But it's nice to have options -- for example, if you want a tender with a cavernous hull (instead of LASH-style brackets) to carry battle riders around, well that's a big hull. Or if you want a 50-billion-ton jump-capable planetoid for the Loeskalth, then ... well you'll need to bend the rules, but it is an option.
BardicHeart
SOC-12
Friendly sounding computer voice, "Please follow the green line to the ship arborium.... follow the yellow line to engineering... the blue line..." LOL
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
What they can build is limited by technology. It would seem to me that a TL 15 society would be far more limited by drives and such than sheer weight. If the greatest possible propulsion package is size x and the minimum acceptable speed with that package at some tonnage is y then that defines the maximum ship not some arbitrary value. Of course, you then get some fool who wants to slap 32 of these on a ship to make a bigger one.... The Russians did that to get their first orbital launch vehicle... Couldn't build bigger engines so they used 32 improved German V-2 ones instead.....
A crew in a type S is sent out to check on an anomaly to find it is a colony ship 10km long and 2.5km wide...from another civilization.
BardicHeart
SOC-12
Yup, those make for some pretty cool adventures. Remember that HUGE science ship from the movie Black Hole (okay I'm dating myself again), I used something like that in an old Star Frontiers campaign long time ago, would work just as well in Traveller I would imagine. Or the Proteus from the Lost In Space movie, another "super ship" that could be fun to explore (though the metal eating space bugs... not so much).
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
That would be my thinking put another way. The limit on ship size should be dictated by some combination of physics in the game mechanics rather than some arbitrary number.
The problem is that the actual limit is dependent upon material and acceleration.
Strength is a function of material, cross-sectional area and shape.
Mass of the ship is a function of the volume.
Big nasty curve, 3rd order equation.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Exactly the scenario I put my players through back in 1985... I basically re-created the giant ship from Arthur C. Clarke's Rendezvous With Rama, but made it a manned ship from an ancient Human civilization.
They had last been in the area ~6,000 BC (their home-world had been colonized ~10,000 BC via assistance from one of the "Forerunner" civilizations*), but had moved their entire world population a few thousand parsecs away.
This ship was coming back through to make a survey of the area.
The ship was a giant cylinder, 115 km long, 48 km in diameter, with an inside length of 90 km & diameter of 40 km... yielding an inside surface area of 11,310 km². The cylinder was rotated to provide gravity on the inside of the cylinder wall.
I seem to remember having it with a FTL speed of ~1/4J (28 days in FTL per CT-J1), and an unrefueled range of 5xCTJ1. It took a month or so to refuel.
What do you mean "That's too big"... it was only 15.4 trillion tons (15,400,000,000,000)!
:rofl:
o:* My Traveller universe has far less of Grandfather and the GDW vision of Ancients, and far more of Andre Norton's vision of many different earlier spacefaring civilizations created by many different species, each succeeding previous ones, and covering a vast period of time.
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Yavin_Prime
SOC-7
I did option 2 for a few reasons.
1) Massive ships cost a lot and players are often indapendent.
2) Massive ships cost a lot to maintain.
3) Massive ships need larger crews and thats a lot of money to pay out to NPCs hehe.
Overall I think major battles with a few captial ships (at the most 3-4 on each side) and a larger number of smaller ships would be more fun anyways. The capital ships can destroy the smaller ships one on one but if the smaller ships group up then the capital ship could find itself out gunned. Its just a matter of using stratagy. Overall larger ships don't change much its just more damage to calculate and more stuff to worry about. I say add some rules to support them but also point out that they are impracticle for players to use and often should be used as space 'boss' battles.
1) Massive ships cost a lot and players are often indapendent.
2) Massive ships cost a lot to maintain.
3) Massive ships need larger crews and thats a lot of money to pay out to NPCs hehe.
Overall I think major battles with a few captial ships (at the most 3-4 on each side) and a larger number of smaller ships would be more fun anyways. The capital ships can destroy the smaller ships one on one but if the smaller ships group up then the capital ship could find itself out gunned. Its just a matter of using stratagy. Overall larger ships don't change much its just more damage to calculate and more stuff to worry about. I say add some rules to support them but also point out that they are impracticle for players to use and often should be used as space 'boss' battles.
Nearly impossible to do as well when future materials science, reactionless drives and gravitics from the Traveller universe get factored in. These things to reinforce structural integity, plus minimizing thrust and staying out of gravity wells, one could have a fairly large ship; not for battle though.
Doing some calc's for the jump drive thread, I think one would come to the same conclusion: either it all works or it doesn't work at all.
Clarke's quote comes to mind:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Dating yourself to about my age as well, I suspect.
I wish there had been more exploration of the Proteus, though the bugs were kind of cool.
Exactly the scenario I put my players through back in 1985... I basically re-created the giant ship from Arthur C. Clarke's Rendezvous With Rama, but made it a manned ship from an ancient Human civilization.
They had last been in the area ~6,000 BC (their home-world had been colonized ~10,000 BC via assistance from one of the "Forerunner" civilizations*), but had moved their entire world population a few thousand parsecs away.
This ship was coming back through to make a survey of the area.
The ship was a giant cylinder, 115 km long, 48 km in diameter, with an inside length of 90 km & diameter of 40 km... yielding an inside surface area of 11,310 km². The cylinder was rotated to provide gravity on the inside of the cylinder wall.
I seem to remember having it with a FTL speed of ~1/4J (28 days in FTL per CT-J1), and an unrefueled range of 5xCTJ1. It took a month or so to refuel.
What do you mean "That's too big"... it was only 15.4 trillion tons (15,400,000,000,000)!
* My Traveller universe has far less of Grandfather and the GDW vision of Ancients, and far more of Andre Norton's vision of many different earlier spacefaring civilizations created by many different species, each succeeding previous ones, and covering a vast period of time.
I have a tendancy to be more Cthulu-esque with the ancients myself, like with the Old Ones from At the Mountains of Madness. The ancients might even still be around, but you don't want to meet them.
I had and adventure, mid 80's, where the characters found a giant ship crashed on a planet, still partially active.
The old TTA Spacewreck book was great for artwork too.
bromdenlong
SOC-12
I voted option 2
I see warships much bigger than an Azhanti High Lightning as being pretty rare. I haven't actually played out battles with them, but spinal mount weapons seem to have too high a chance per shot of killing or crippling ANY ship to make it worth putting too many eggs in one basket. ( I am referring to CT High Guard here.) If anyone has contrary experience, I stand ready to be corrected.
I see most merchants as being streamlined and 5000dt max. I see that as the size limit for downports, and not having to hire or carry shuttles for cargo and fuel transfer as a big money saver and time saver.
Überhuge armed merchants would intimidate run-of-the-mill pirates, but would likely be running regular routes. I would think this would tempt large numbers of pirates to cooperate, and/or acquire a spinal-mount armed ship.
I see übermerchants as operating in safe Coreward space, or carrying low price per mass cargoes, or operating strictly among well-policed systems.
I see warships much bigger than an Azhanti High Lightning as being pretty rare. I haven't actually played out battles with them, but spinal mount weapons seem to have too high a chance per shot of killing or crippling ANY ship to make it worth putting too many eggs in one basket. ( I am referring to CT High Guard here.) If anyone has contrary experience, I stand ready to be corrected.
I see most merchants as being streamlined and 5000dt max. I see that as the size limit for downports, and not having to hire or carry shuttles for cargo and fuel transfer as a big money saver and time saver.
Überhuge armed merchants would intimidate run-of-the-mill pirates, but would likely be running regular routes. I would think this would tempt large numbers of pirates to cooperate, and/or acquire a spinal-mount armed ship.
I see übermerchants as operating in safe Coreward space, or carrying low price per mass cargoes, or operating strictly among well-policed systems.
No limits
Personally I like to make big ships.
BUT ....
A PC's ship is going to limited to number of NPCs I feel like running or the number of PCs the players can run. So 1k dton would be THE limit.mega:
As for other entities ... the bigger and frequent the ship the more likely the PCs will behave.:devil: Pirates are just other PCs behaving badly.
Besides how are you supposed to build the A & B orbitals if you are limited to 5k dton
I see these as at least 1M dton or better.
Personally I like to make big ships.
BUT ....
A PC's ship is going to limited to number of NPCs I feel like running or the number of PCs the players can run. So 1k dton would be THE limit.
mega:As for other entities ... the bigger and frequent the ship the more likely the PCs will behave.:devil: Pirates are just other PCs behaving badly.
Besides how are you supposed to build the A & B orbitals if you are limited to 5k dton
I see these as at least 1M dton or better.shadowcat20
SOC-12
I prefer the smaller ships myself. In my game it was Book 2 for civilian shipping and HG was for military vehicles.
If you were a aux warship for a planet or a armed merchant with planetary papers you could get some HG stuff for your basic ship (Weapons, armor, purif plants, or maybe even engines).
This kept the average ship you meet within reasonable limits and spine weapons or even weapons bays were front line military only. Anything you met over 10KT became a WTF moment for the ship crew.
If you were a aux warship for a planet or a armed merchant with planetary papers you could get some HG stuff for your basic ship (Weapons, armor, purif plants, or maybe even engines).
This kept the average ship you meet within reasonable limits and spine weapons or even weapons bays were front line military only. Anything you met over 10KT became a WTF moment for the ship crew.
