jchurchill
SOC-12
"the best response you can come up with is "it's a game?"."
But it is just a game. Really.
But it is just a game. Really.
So, you've failed your survival roll...
- Thread starter RobertFisher
- Start date
jchurchill
SOC-12
"the best response you can come up with is "it's a game?"."
But it is just a game. Really.
But it is just a game. Really.
M
Malenfant
Guest
And? It's a game that supposedly, according to the blurb in Book 0, is trying to be realistic. And it's failing in this regard.
M
Malenfant
Guest
And? It's a game that supposedly, according to the blurb in Book 0, is trying to be realistic. And it's failing in this regard.
jchurchill
SOC-12
And? It's a game that supposedly, according to the blurb in Book 0, is trying to be realistic. And it's failing in this regard.
==============================================
Who reads book 0? [joke here] I never did. Besides, it's a science fiction game. anti-gravity cars? uplifted talking dogs? Realistic?
Yes the game is attempting to be rooted in some real science compared to other games but it is just a game and some aspects of it are not realistic.
==============================================
Who reads book 0? [joke here] I never did. Besides, it's a science fiction game. anti-gravity cars? uplifted talking dogs? Realistic?
Yes the game is attempting to be rooted in some real science compared to other games but it is just a game and some aspects of it are not realistic.
jchurchill
SOC-12
And? It's a game that supposedly, according to the blurb in Book 0, is trying to be realistic. And it's failing in this regard.
==============================================
Who reads book 0? [joke here] I never did. Besides, it's a science fiction game. anti-gravity cars? uplifted talking dogs? Realistic?
Yes the game is attempting to be rooted in some real science compared to other games but it is just a game and some aspects of it are not realistic.
==============================================
Who reads book 0? [joke here] I never did. Besides, it's a science fiction game. anti-gravity cars? uplifted talking dogs? Realistic?
Yes the game is attempting to be rooted in some real science compared to other games but it is just a game and some aspects of it are not realistic.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, duh!
Of course the setting is fictional, but it is still definitely trying to simulate reality in a realistic manner. Otherwise they wouldn't have made the effort to the detailed ship designs and realistic astronomical info in there, would they?
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, duh!
Of course the setting is fictional, but it is still definitely trying to simulate reality in a realistic manner. Otherwise they wouldn't have made the effort to the detailed ship designs and realistic astronomical info in there, would they?
jchurchill
SOC-12
"it is still definitely trying to simulate reality in a realistic manner."
Now you are chasing your own tail.
"Otherwise they wouldn't have made the effort to the detailed ship designs and realistic astronomical info in there, would they?"
Sure. But your complaint is the randomness of skill acquisition right? People develop different skills over the years and sometimes we learn skills that we did not expect or seek out.
You apparently favor a system where the player chooses exactly what skills his or her character will have and to what degree. That's not realistic either though. Neither system is pure realism.
Now you are chasing your own tail.
"Otherwise they wouldn't have made the effort to the detailed ship designs and realistic astronomical info in there, would they?"
Sure. But your complaint is the randomness of skill acquisition right? People develop different skills over the years and sometimes we learn skills that we did not expect or seek out.
You apparently favor a system where the player chooses exactly what skills his or her character will have and to what degree. That's not realistic either though. Neither system is pure realism.
jchurchill
SOC-12
"it is still definitely trying to simulate reality in a realistic manner."
Now you are chasing your own tail.
"Otherwise they wouldn't have made the effort to the detailed ship designs and realistic astronomical info in there, would they?"
Sure. But your complaint is the randomness of skill acquisition right? People develop different skills over the years and sometimes we learn skills that we did not expect or seek out.
You apparently favor a system where the player chooses exactly what skills his or her character will have and to what degree. That's not realistic either though. Neither system is pure realism.
Now you are chasing your own tail.
"Otherwise they wouldn't have made the effort to the detailed ship designs and realistic astronomical info in there, would they?"
Sure. But your complaint is the randomness of skill acquisition right? People develop different skills over the years and sometimes we learn skills that we did not expect or seek out.
You apparently favor a system where the player chooses exactly what skills his or her character will have and to what degree. That's not realistic either though. Neither system is pure realism.
jchurchill
SOC-12
Or to put it this way ----
Has your life been a series of planned events or is there any randomness involved in who you are today?
I think most of us will see bits of luck and random events that sometimes push us down one road and not another. CT has that too. Too much? maybe. But then it is a game and not real life.
Has your life been a series of planned events or is there any randomness involved in who you are today?
I think most of us will see bits of luck and random events that sometimes push us down one road and not another. CT has that too. Too much? maybe. But then it is a game and not real life.
jchurchill
SOC-12
Or to put it this way ----
Has your life been a series of planned events or is there any randomness involved in who you are today?
I think most of us will see bits of luck and random events that sometimes push us down one road and not another. CT has that too. Too much? maybe. But then it is a game and not real life.
Has your life been a series of planned events or is there any randomness involved in who you are today?
I think most of us will see bits of luck and random events that sometimes push us down one road and not another. CT has that too. Too much? maybe. But then it is a game and not real life.
M
Malenfant
Guest
I don't see how this is the case.
It's in the randomness of the whole chargen system. People generally are able to make choices. I'm not going to randomly learn basket-weaving - if I learn it, it's because I want to.
It's certainly more realistic than being at the mercy of the dice all the time.
The characters in stories and TV shows are not randomly generated by their authors before they write them. They are designed with a background in mind, that is followed in the book. After all, Ahab didn't randomly die in a whaling accident before Moby Dick did he
? If you're playing a character in a game, why should it be any different? Why should you be unable to play the guy that's survived all the hardships straight away, instead of having to go through a zillion dice rolls to see if he does?
M
Malenfant
Guest
I don't see how this is the case.
It's in the randomness of the whole chargen system. People generally are able to make choices. I'm not going to randomly learn basket-weaving - if I learn it, it's because I want to.
It's certainly more realistic than being at the mercy of the dice all the time.
The characters in stories and TV shows are not randomly generated by their authors before they write them. They are designed with a background in mind, that is followed in the book. After all, Ahab didn't randomly die in a whaling accident before Moby Dick did he
? If you're playing a character in a game, why should it be any different? Why should you be unable to play the guy that's survived all the hardships straight away, instead of having to go through a zillion dice rolls to see if he does?
Because, as a form of literature, it's one about not having control over all the elements of the story. That's the game part.
As a form of literature, Traveller was a step away from the mainstream of it's time of release. Which, admittedly, was a fairly narrow field: (Classic aka little book)D&D, Tunnels and Trolls, Starfaring, Metamorphosis Alpha, and IIRC, Runequest. All of those games (except runequest) assumed picking up the life of the hero at the start of his career, much like Frodo in LOTR does, or Bill the Galactic Hero, or Sten, or even Star Wars to a degree.
Traveller took its cues far more from Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, as well as Television. In books, we often see a character grow into his heorism; television and movies seldom do that, as it takes too long. In TV and Movies, we are presented with heroes either in their prime, or about to be in their prime (In some cases, unlikely heroes even).
Traveller provides us with not a "Hero at his Origins" but an "Adventurer" in the prime, or even well past it. Grizzled veterans, retired officers, and ex-merchants make the adventure option far more likely.
Add to this, that, unlike other cames of the early 70's, it lacked an experience system. (In fact, CT lacking an experience system was more of a problem for me later in life than when I started playing Traveller in 1983; and just as that flaw was becoming manifest, MT came out and remedied it.)
Traveller has been a far different gaming paradigm than GURPS, Hero, D&D, or any of the others... in part because you lack control over all your character's skill choices, and in part because of the assumption of relatively mature protagonists... One of my more enjoyable characters had but three skills: Admin 5, Liaison 2, Bribery 1. Sure, he didnn't mesh well with the group, but he DID get them out of several scrapes. (He caught lead poisoning in a shootout...) And he was Buff: Str and End both over 10. He was an accountant waiting for a chance to become a hero... and died trying to be one. I modeled him strongly after the personality of my HS Math Teacher: Mr. Peterson...
When you take a mismatched set of numbers, and actually have to work at finding the character from the nummbers (and not the other way around), there is great reward to doing so. Characters become even more cherished despite (or because of) their randomly inserted quirks.
This whole concept of random background was so inspiring, from GDW, that TFG created 3 supplements to do it for "Any Genre": Heroes Now, Heroes of Yesteryear, and Heros of Tommorrow. Sure you can't die (Well, actually, HoY can result in becoming undead, and HoT can result in being a revived and/or mem-copied clone, but those are rare.)
Advocates of "Built to suit" characters seldom have tried the other method with seriousness... and it takes several good tries to appreciate the skills it builds in the player... and those who have find new appreciation for tales from Traveller games.
Many friends who like GURPS really appreciate the variety that playing Traveller and WFRP forced them to try.
and as for MT's differences from CT:
1) more cascades means more choices to be made; in some careers, half of the skill rolls are cascades.
2) more skills per term (by adding special duty and by adding the bonus skills concept).
3) more level 0 skills by homeworld.
The one TNEism I really liked was Contacts... so my homegrown modified MT CG tables have contaccts and decorations added to basic CG.
As a form of literature, Traveller was a step away from the mainstream of it's time of release. Which, admittedly, was a fairly narrow field: (Classic aka little book)D&D, Tunnels and Trolls, Starfaring, Metamorphosis Alpha, and IIRC, Runequest. All of those games (except runequest) assumed picking up the life of the hero at the start of his career, much like Frodo in LOTR does, or Bill the Galactic Hero, or Sten, or even Star Wars to a degree.
Traveller took its cues far more from Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, as well as Television. In books, we often see a character grow into his heorism; television and movies seldom do that, as it takes too long. In TV and Movies, we are presented with heroes either in their prime, or about to be in their prime (In some cases, unlikely heroes even).
Traveller provides us with not a "Hero at his Origins" but an "Adventurer" in the prime, or even well past it. Grizzled veterans, retired officers, and ex-merchants make the adventure option far more likely.
Add to this, that, unlike other cames of the early 70's, it lacked an experience system. (In fact, CT lacking an experience system was more of a problem for me later in life than when I started playing Traveller in 1983; and just as that flaw was becoming manifest, MT came out and remedied it.)
Traveller has been a far different gaming paradigm than GURPS, Hero, D&D, or any of the others... in part because you lack control over all your character's skill choices, and in part because of the assumption of relatively mature protagonists... One of my more enjoyable characters had but three skills: Admin 5, Liaison 2, Bribery 1. Sure, he didnn't mesh well with the group, but he DID get them out of several scrapes. (He caught lead poisoning in a shootout...) And he was Buff: Str and End both over 10. He was an accountant waiting for a chance to become a hero... and died trying to be one. I modeled him strongly after the personality of my HS Math Teacher: Mr. Peterson...
When you take a mismatched set of numbers, and actually have to work at finding the character from the nummbers (and not the other way around), there is great reward to doing so. Characters become even more cherished despite (or because of) their randomly inserted quirks.
This whole concept of random background was so inspiring, from GDW, that TFG created 3 supplements to do it for "Any Genre": Heroes Now, Heroes of Yesteryear, and Heros of Tommorrow. Sure you can't die (Well, actually, HoY can result in becoming undead, and HoT can result in being a revived and/or mem-copied clone, but those are rare.)
Advocates of "Built to suit" characters seldom have tried the other method with seriousness... and it takes several good tries to appreciate the skills it builds in the player... and those who have find new appreciation for tales from Traveller games.
Many friends who like GURPS really appreciate the variety that playing Traveller and WFRP forced them to try.
and as for MT's differences from CT:
1) more cascades means more choices to be made; in some careers, half of the skill rolls are cascades.
2) more skills per term (by adding special duty and by adding the bonus skills concept).
3) more level 0 skills by homeworld.
The one TNEism I really liked was Contacts... so my homegrown modified MT CG tables have contaccts and decorations added to basic CG.
Because, as a form of literature, it's one about not having control over all the elements of the story. That's the game part.
As a form of literature, Traveller was a step away from the mainstream of it's time of release. Which, admittedly, was a fairly narrow field: (Classic aka little book)D&D, Tunnels and Trolls, Starfaring, Metamorphosis Alpha, and IIRC, Runequest. All of those games (except runequest) assumed picking up the life of the hero at the start of his career, much like Frodo in LOTR does, or Bill the Galactic Hero, or Sten, or even Star Wars to a degree.
Traveller took its cues far more from Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, as well as Television. In books, we often see a character grow into his heorism; television and movies seldom do that, as it takes too long. In TV and Movies, we are presented with heroes either in their prime, or about to be in their prime (In some cases, unlikely heroes even).
Traveller provides us with not a "Hero at his Origins" but an "Adventurer" in the prime, or even well past it. Grizzled veterans, retired officers, and ex-merchants make the adventure option far more likely.
Add to this, that, unlike other cames of the early 70's, it lacked an experience system. (In fact, CT lacking an experience system was more of a problem for me later in life than when I started playing Traveller in 1983; and just as that flaw was becoming manifest, MT came out and remedied it.)
Traveller has been a far different gaming paradigm than GURPS, Hero, D&D, or any of the others... in part because you lack control over all your character's skill choices, and in part because of the assumption of relatively mature protagonists... One of my more enjoyable characters had but three skills: Admin 5, Liaison 2, Bribery 1. Sure, he didnn't mesh well with the group, but he DID get them out of several scrapes. (He caught lead poisoning in a shootout...) And he was Buff: Str and End both over 10. He was an accountant waiting for a chance to become a hero... and died trying to be one. I modeled him strongly after the personality of my HS Math Teacher: Mr. Peterson...
When you take a mismatched set of numbers, and actually have to work at finding the character from the nummbers (and not the other way around), there is great reward to doing so. Characters become even more cherished despite (or because of) their randomly inserted quirks.
This whole concept of random background was so inspiring, from GDW, that TFG created 3 supplements to do it for "Any Genre": Heroes Now, Heroes of Yesteryear, and Heros of Tommorrow. Sure you can't die (Well, actually, HoY can result in becoming undead, and HoT can result in being a revived and/or mem-copied clone, but those are rare.)
Advocates of "Built to suit" characters seldom have tried the other method with seriousness... and it takes several good tries to appreciate the skills it builds in the player... and those who have find new appreciation for tales from Traveller games.
Many friends who like GURPS really appreciate the variety that playing Traveller and WFRP forced them to try.
and as for MT's differences from CT:
1) more cascades means more choices to be made; in some careers, half of the skill rolls are cascades.
2) more skills per term (by adding special duty and by adding the bonus skills concept).
3) more level 0 skills by homeworld.
The one TNEism I really liked was Contacts... so my homegrown modified MT CG tables have contaccts and decorations added to basic CG.
As a form of literature, Traveller was a step away from the mainstream of it's time of release. Which, admittedly, was a fairly narrow field: (Classic aka little book)D&D, Tunnels and Trolls, Starfaring, Metamorphosis Alpha, and IIRC, Runequest. All of those games (except runequest) assumed picking up the life of the hero at the start of his career, much like Frodo in LOTR does, or Bill the Galactic Hero, or Sten, or even Star Wars to a degree.
Traveller took its cues far more from Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, as well as Television. In books, we often see a character grow into his heorism; television and movies seldom do that, as it takes too long. In TV and Movies, we are presented with heroes either in their prime, or about to be in their prime (In some cases, unlikely heroes even).
Traveller provides us with not a "Hero at his Origins" but an "Adventurer" in the prime, or even well past it. Grizzled veterans, retired officers, and ex-merchants make the adventure option far more likely.
Add to this, that, unlike other cames of the early 70's, it lacked an experience system. (In fact, CT lacking an experience system was more of a problem for me later in life than when I started playing Traveller in 1983; and just as that flaw was becoming manifest, MT came out and remedied it.)
Traveller has been a far different gaming paradigm than GURPS, Hero, D&D, or any of the others... in part because you lack control over all your character's skill choices, and in part because of the assumption of relatively mature protagonists... One of my more enjoyable characters had but three skills: Admin 5, Liaison 2, Bribery 1. Sure, he didnn't mesh well with the group, but he DID get them out of several scrapes. (He caught lead poisoning in a shootout...) And he was Buff: Str and End both over 10. He was an accountant waiting for a chance to become a hero... and died trying to be one. I modeled him strongly after the personality of my HS Math Teacher: Mr. Peterson...
When you take a mismatched set of numbers, and actually have to work at finding the character from the nummbers (and not the other way around), there is great reward to doing so. Characters become even more cherished despite (or because of) their randomly inserted quirks.
This whole concept of random background was so inspiring, from GDW, that TFG created 3 supplements to do it for "Any Genre": Heroes Now, Heroes of Yesteryear, and Heros of Tommorrow. Sure you can't die (Well, actually, HoY can result in becoming undead, and HoT can result in being a revived and/or mem-copied clone, but those are rare.)
Advocates of "Built to suit" characters seldom have tried the other method with seriousness... and it takes several good tries to appreciate the skills it builds in the player... and those who have find new appreciation for tales from Traveller games.
Many friends who like GURPS really appreciate the variety that playing Traveller and WFRP forced them to try.
and as for MT's differences from CT:
1) more cascades means more choices to be made; in some careers, half of the skill rolls are cascades.
2) more skills per term (by adding special duty and by adding the bonus skills concept).
3) more level 0 skills by homeworld.
The one TNEism I really liked was Contacts... so my homegrown modified MT CG tables have contaccts and decorations added to basic CG.
Some good points so far in this thread. I’ve often used randomness as a jumpstart to seed creativity or add spice I couldn’t have come up with otherwise to a character concept. I've used Tarot and similar cards, the numerous Gygax charts (from dungeon generators to social class), Palladium's character charts, TNE’s card deck motivation tables, Interlock/Fuzion’s lifepaths etc. for this as well.
I find it difficult not to optimize the more choice and detail I’m allowed in chargen which is why BESM is about as detailed a point-buy system I get. For me succeeding in spite of lack of ability, skill, or equipment is just as rewarding in a rpg as a well laid out plan working and often the same thing.
Now I wouldn’t use CT chargen straight up but I still enjoy it and similar. Heck, without randomness there’s no way for example that I’d have come up with a no name poor ex-circus acrobat small craft pilot Traveller who subsists mainly on insta natto & ramen. The CT stats for Asu can be summed up in about as long as it took to describe the character above.
Casey
I find it difficult not to optimize the more choice and detail I’m allowed in chargen which is why BESM is about as detailed a point-buy system I get. For me succeeding in spite of lack of ability, skill, or equipment is just as rewarding in a rpg as a well laid out plan working and often the same thing.
Now I wouldn’t use CT chargen straight up but I still enjoy it and similar. Heck, without randomness there’s no way for example that I’d have come up with a no name poor ex-circus acrobat small craft pilot Traveller who subsists mainly on insta natto & ramen. The CT stats for Asu can be summed up in about as long as it took to describe the character above.
Casey
Some good points so far in this thread. I’ve often used randomness as a jumpstart to seed creativity or add spice I couldn’t have come up with otherwise to a character concept. I've used Tarot and similar cards, the numerous Gygax charts (from dungeon generators to social class), Palladium's character charts, TNE’s card deck motivation tables, Interlock/Fuzion’s lifepaths etc. for this as well.
I find it difficult not to optimize the more choice and detail I’m allowed in chargen which is why BESM is about as detailed a point-buy system I get. For me succeeding in spite of lack of ability, skill, or equipment is just as rewarding in a rpg as a well laid out plan working and often the same thing.
Now I wouldn’t use CT chargen straight up but I still enjoy it and similar. Heck, without randomness there’s no way for example that I’d have come up with a no name poor ex-circus acrobat small craft pilot Traveller who subsists mainly on insta natto & ramen. The CT stats for Asu can be summed up in about as long as it took to describe the character above.
Casey
I find it difficult not to optimize the more choice and detail I’m allowed in chargen which is why BESM is about as detailed a point-buy system I get. For me succeeding in spite of lack of ability, skill, or equipment is just as rewarding in a rpg as a well laid out plan working and often the same thing.
Now I wouldn’t use CT chargen straight up but I still enjoy it and similar. Heck, without randomness there’s no way for example that I’d have come up with a no name poor ex-circus acrobat small craft pilot Traveller who subsists mainly on insta natto & ramen. The CT stats for Asu can be summed up in about as long as it took to describe the character above.
Casey
I note that you good gentles speak most fondly of the characters you Played, and with whom you Succceeded, in spite of their random, non-optimised nature.
Lemons, lemonade. Hard times make tough hombres. (substitute for tough : resourceful / conservative / prepared / thoughtful / etc. )
There was of course the limited choice in char development of first career, then which table to apply those gained skills for the term - with citizens of the Imperium one could have a second career if the first failed, careful choice of career would fill in some holes - of course chargen was not totally random.
Secondly, there were generic skills (JOT!), the char was seldom a genius, just had a shot at being adequate. Good Players made up for their individual characters inadequacies, most often, by teamwork. Solos died.
sojourner
Lemons, lemonade. Hard times make tough hombres. (substitute for tough : resourceful / conservative / prepared / thoughtful / etc. )
There was of course the limited choice in char development of first career, then which table to apply those gained skills for the term - with citizens of the Imperium one could have a second career if the first failed, careful choice of career would fill in some holes - of course chargen was not totally random.
Secondly, there were generic skills (JOT!), the char was seldom a genius, just had a shot at being adequate. Good Players made up for their individual characters inadequacies, most often, by teamwork. Solos died.
sojourner
I note that you good gentles speak most fondly of the characters you Played, and with whom you Succceeded, in spite of their random, non-optimised nature.
Lemons, lemonade. Hard times make tough hombres. (substitute for tough : resourceful / conservative / prepared / thoughtful / etc. )
There was of course the limited choice in char development of first career, then which table to apply those gained skills for the term - with citizens of the Imperium one could have a second career if the first failed, careful choice of career would fill in some holes - of course chargen was not totally random.
Secondly, there were generic skills (JOT!), the char was seldom a genius, just had a shot at being adequate. Good Players made up for their individual characters inadequacies, most often, by teamwork. Solos died.
sojourner
Lemons, lemonade. Hard times make tough hombres. (substitute for tough : resourceful / conservative / prepared / thoughtful / etc. )
There was of course the limited choice in char development of first career, then which table to apply those gained skills for the term - with citizens of the Imperium one could have a second career if the first failed, careful choice of career would fill in some holes - of course chargen was not totally random.
Secondly, there were generic skills (JOT!), the char was seldom a genius, just had a shot at being adequate. Good Players made up for their individual characters inadequacies, most often, by teamwork. Solos died.
sojourner
