software for character generation

[simonh]

...You can write software - but not for Mongoose Traveller by name (just as the OGL restricts the product identity for WoTC). That requires the Traveller Logo License, IIRC, which does explicitly restrict software.

Yep, I think that's what it comes down to.

Using the OGL for software for chargen would be pointless as the SRD leaves out critical elements like the careers and even the attribute basics, IIRC. You could make the software using all the rules - but not using unique names, including not stating any applicability to the trademarked names themselves. (Which is essentially the same as with copyright for U.S. games anyway - rules not being subject to copyright protection.)

Personally I'm not all that interested in automated character generation, but it is a problem for those who are. There are some third party career books for MGT though, so it might be worth contacting the publishers of those and see if they mind using their material instead.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Icosahedron]

I recommend anyone interested in creating a character generation program contact Mongoose and explain that you plan to create such a program for non-commercial hobby reasons and will put a disclaimer to that effect on the program . I think you will find that they are most accommodating. I recently did this for a Trade program that I am working on and will be releasing soon. Matt from Mongoose replied that they would have no issues about a program released and distributed in such manner.

Sounds like they're a lot better than some companies I could name, then. Well done Mongoose.

So the reason we haven't got Chargen software after 7+ years is...?

 

[Shonner]

Sounds like they're a lot better than some companies I could name, then. Well done Mongoose.

So the reason we haven't got Chargen software after 7+ years is...?

RPG companies are typically not in the computer business. When Traveller first came out, people wrote their own software for their home computers. So CharGen programs were a no-brainer for referees with any interest in computers. This was before the Internet, end-users, and torrents dominated the scene. It's a whole different culture now as far as how people use their computers/phones. People want an app for everything. And they want it yesterday.

Anyway. In the '70s, there was no easy way to give out software you wrote to people. And today, there still isn't.

 

[simonh]

Anyway. In the '70s, there was no easy way to give out software you wrote to people. And today, there still isn't.

I don't know about that, The Traveller Map shows what can be done with web apps. Setting up an App Engine instance is pretty simple and in fact there are plenty of character generator web apps out there for many different games. Even desktop apps are pretty simple to distribute, I can build and release a new build of StarBase in a few minutes. Writing the release notes takes longer than the build and generating a download link.

The problem is that professional level software, such as a web app with user registration, slick and attractive UI, deep feature set and useful sharing, integration and export features like export to PDF or Word is hard. It's a lot of work. Writing the character generation scrip and throwing up a basic default themed UI is perhaps 5% of the work you need to do for a Pro grade app that's worth money. The gulf that separates demo app from commercial product is deep and wide, and swallows a heck of a lot of projects.

It's that old sore that once you've down 90% of the work on a software project, you've only got the other 90% left to go. The number of times I've read comments on gaming sites where people say you 'just' need to do X, or 'only' have to do Y to make a commercial software product is unreal. "Why don't Mongoose supply a free app to do ship design and character generation in a CD that comes with the game?" I've seen people say that a few times. Well, perhaps becaus the software would be so expensive that the game would have to cost maybe tripple.
Simon Hibbs

 

[Shonner]

I can build and release a new build of StarBase in a few minutes. Writing the release notes takes longer than the build and generating a download link.

You are just one person. There is no Traveller software being released over the years on a regular basis by droves of people.

 

[aramis]

You are just one person. There is no Traveller software being released over the years on a regular basis by droves of people.

There was. During the days of WWIV-net, GEnie, and CI$, there were 30+ various authors sharing assorted (often overlapping in functionality) apps.

Me, I turned one loose onto WWIVnet in about 90... near the end days of WWIVnet as a real force... that was a VAX-basic character generator compiled for VAX/VMS. Got half a dozen downloads that *I* know about...

It's pretty trivial, actually, to write a passable 1987-era Character Generator for CT/MT. I've written 6 of them over the years, 5 in different flavors of BASIC, and one in C++... People could have charged money for them if GDW would have let them...

... But that was also in the days of command line interfaces.

It's not that hard to do one in Javascript, for a web page. Provided, of course, you (1) know javascript, (2) know HTML forms and (3) have a copy of CT or MT.

Turning that into a professional interface .app is a whole 'nother matter.

At one point, around 1997-1998, there were over a dozen people releasing very high quality apps for various traveller purposes. Very nice compiled Hypercard stacks. Galactic by Jim V. Metator by Rob Prior. Several Character Generators for mac by one guy, and several others by another 5-6. 3-4 guys wrote ship-building programs for HG.

I cranked out a T20 PalmOS Goods available generator. It made its way into the net because one of my "friends" pirate released the Alpha.

The new interfaces, however, have really upped the bar.

 

[Shonner]

I'll agree that there were a lot of programs written for Traveller over the decades. I'm guilty of some of it on DEC-10, Cyber, and VAX. But the programs were rarely distributed in any kind of way.

 

[Icosahedron]

The new interfaces, however, have really upped the bar.

Hey, just toss me an Excel spreadsheet - I'm easily pleased.

I'm suspecting there may be a number of people out there inventing wheels, and none of them dare post them up, free for the community, because they're scared that Mongoose will sue their pants off.

 

[simonh]

Hey, just toss me an Excel spreadsheet - I'm easily pleased.

I'm suspecting there may be a number of people out there inventing wheels, and none of them dare post them up, free for the community, because they're scared that Mongoose will sue their pants off.

I've still seen a number of character generators and even a ship design spreadsheet over the years. The fair use policy for historical Traveller versions in pretty liberal and the are loads of little utilities for various flavours of Traveller. I must have come across about a dozen subsector generators in Perl, C, PHP and various flavours of Basic. The World gen sequence has always been ripe for automation because it requires no user input. Character generation is more complex, you can just automate everything, but there are a ton of tables to input and to do it properly there are frequent user choices to handle throughout the process that complicates things.

Ship design is even more difficult because there are loads of edge cases and vaguely worded or 'obvious' unwritten rules that can catch you out. I know this becaus it wrote 90% of a ship design app in Python at one point, but never got round to doing the other 90%. It was doable. MGT High Guard on the other hand would be a real pain to code due to the Ship Section rules. Trust me, they look ok on paper, in practice they form a kind of feedback loop into earlier design decisions.

I have always been in awe of HGS, Andrea has done a fantastic job with that. That and Traveller Universe are the only two Traveller utility apps out there that are truly professional grade.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Vladika]

Hey, just toss me an Excel spreadsheet - I'm easily pleased.

I'm suspecting there may be a number of people out there inventing wheels, and none of them dare post them up, free for the community, because they're scared that Mongoose will sue their pants off.

No one, company or individual, is going to sue anyone who is to broke to make it worthwhile. Oh, they may get a "cease and desist order" or have a site pulled, but they aren't going after the average small fry with a vengeance.

 

[Garyius2003]

I was going to be a jerk, but instead I will do this, because I know you guys are all trying to follow the rules and I am sure you are really great within your own fields, and you think law makes some kind of logical sense.

1. States in the US are (effectively) semi sovereign. They have their own trademark laws. There is also a federal trademark law, for goods in interstate commerce (a bunch of very easy to meet requirements). Registered trademarks are issued for classes of goods. Trademarks can be registered or not. Registered is much better if you intend to sue, and longer term registration is better.

Go to USPTO.gov, and search. Tell me if there is a current (live) trademark for Traveller as a paper game book, or in a computer game related class. Please do the same for Mongoose Traveller.

I know what the results are, which is why I also know that I can use the term freely to describe the products. I could anyway, but now it is easier to write.

2. Both states and the federal government can enact laws to control the rights and assumptions of parties in commerce. The federal government needs to have an interstate related reason for passing such a law, and in most cases leave it to the states. This is because the states have formed uniform laws groups to level out many laws between the states. My rights in a good purchased as a consumer are controlled mostly by such laws, called the UCC. I own the book I bought. The rights I purchased are also controlled by patent laws (which do not apply here), trademark (ditto, as long as I am clear I am using Mongoose Traveller as a description), and copyright.

3. What does a copyright protect, if the work in question is a book about a method of playing a game? Even if everything you guys claimed about the 'license' granted through two steps and claimed against a consumer purchaser is true, I still have in my hand a method of playing a game. Can I use simple (non-patentable) software to improve a portion of that game for me or someone else who purchased a copy of the game as a whole. So, is what I am doing a derivative work? If so, did I transform the work, or was it fair use? These are the only three questions.

There are a whole huge amount of cases on these three points. However, it will come down a judge saying 'So, Mongoose or Marc Miller's attorney, your argument is that your client wrote a game where you roll dice like in craps and write down the numbers in a sequence for a small portion of the start of the game, and use these to play the game, and you want me to give you money from this family guy over here because he wrote a little computer program to do the rolling and writing quickly so he has more time to play the game he bought from your client?'

'I can't decide, is this fair use, transformative, or rule 11 sanctions against your client?'

Bonus question, for those of you who took a law class in undergrad, what is the measure of damages?

 

[simonh]

There are a whole huge amount of cases on these three points. However, it will come down a judge saying 'So, Mongoose or Marc Miller's attorney, your argument is that your client wrote a game where you roll dice like in craps and write down the numbers in a sequence for a small portion of the start of the game, and use these to play the game, and you want me to give you money from this family guy over here because he wrote a little computer program to do the rolling and writing quickly so he has more time to play the game he bought from your client?'

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the game mechanics themselves are protected. That's not the issue. This has been extensively covered in the discussion before - the rules are not protected, only the specific expression of them as a text. I thought I'd laboured that point fairly thoroughly.

There are two issues that are particularly relevant. One is use of the Traveller trademark, the other is copyright protection of the text of the games.

I just checked the UK Intelectual property Office site and it has numerous registered trademarks consisting of, or containing the word Traveller but none of them are for the RPG. I wouldn't call any of this definitive though, I just don't know enough about trademark law. Personally I am prepared to accept FFE and Mongoose's ownership of the Trademarks in good faith and also because I respect their achievements and good will to the community. Frankly the legal technicalities don't really concern me.

Copyright is a lot simpler because it doesn't require any kind of registration. I'll give an example of where this affected me. For example the world generation system for any version of Traveller is unprotectable, but e.g. I believe the small text paragraphs describing the technology levels, government types and law code meanings are copyrightable. The Traveller SRD doesn't include the text descriptions of government types, so I made up my own descriptions. I could probably use the descriptions from Book 3 though under the Fair Use Policy (they may even be the same, I've not checked).

The bottom line is that even without the OGL or the fair use policy, logo license, etc you would still be able to do an awful lot of Traveller support software with no legal problems whatever, but provided you did a bit of rewriting of descriptive text. However both the OGL, the Logo License and the Fair Use Policy do in practice grant a lot of useful and important rights that we as fans and a community wouldn't otherwise have. FFE and Mongoose deserve a lot of credit for that.

Simon Hibbs

 

[aramis]

No one, company or individual, is going to sue anyone who is to broke to make it worthwhile. Oh, they may get a "cease and desist order" or have a site pulled, but they aren't going after the average small fry with a vengeance.

Games Workshop can, has , and does.
Palladium has.

 

[Vladika]

Games Workshop can, has , and does.
Palladium has.

OK I'm in error. But what a waste of time and money.

Consider this. Software is developed by "someone". 200 "someones", apparently unrelated, (as far as provable anyway) just start giving it away...

What is anyone going to be able to do?

I do see your point though on further reflection. The "Motion Picture Association of America" goes after average people just to set an example. Several have been bankrupted from using peer to peer...

I can attest that Time Warner allows them access to your downloading habits. That taught me to code my wireless signal.

 

[BytePro]

IIRC, wasn't there a Traveller related lawsuit against a software developer ... the game(s) were pulled and some sort of remuneration applied?

[I could be thinking another Sci-Fi game, though...]

 

[djwildstar]

IIRC, wasn't there a Traveller related lawsuit against a software developer ... the game(s) were pulled and some sort of remuneration applied?

Back in the CT days, there was a text-based computer game for the Apple II called "Space" that was basically computer-moderated solitaire Traveller. According to Wikipedia, the publisher admitted copying Traveller, and reached an out-of-court settlement with GDW. Check out the Wikipedia entries on Traveller (role-playing game) and Space (series) for details.

I recall attending a convention speech where Marc Miller mentioned that he'd had to spend time going through the computer game, pulling out blocks of text to show that they were word-for-word identical to the same text in CT.

 

[BytePro]

Thanks! - that is what I was thinking of.

 

[simonh]

I recall attending a convention speech where Marc Miller mentioned that he'd had to spend time going through the computer game, pulling out blocks of text to show that they were word-for-word identical to the same text in CT.

Such a shame, both for Marc but also for the developers. It wouldn't have taken all that much work to make it original enough to be their own thing. For example the trading system in Elite was basically ripped directly from Traveller, but they added enough of their own content and gameplay what with 3D space combat that it just wasn't an issue.

Nobody is saying you can't create your own material inspired by another game, otherwise D&D would still be the only Roleplaying Game(C)(TM), but you need to make it properly your own thing. Traveller itself borrows heavily from SF literature, but nobody could ever claims it's just a Flandry, Foundation Trillogy, Space Vikings, etc clone or even just a mish mash of previous material. You can stand on the shoulders of giants, and if they're big enough about it they won't even mind, as long as you don't stick your boot in their face.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Shonner]

I'm programming my Vargr character generator right now. Somehow I typed "Loaner" instead of "Loner" for one of the careers. Now I'm curious about Slavers, if Traveller does much with that career?

 

[Fox's Master]

Much Ado About Nothing...

For those of you who remember creating character sheets on typewriters and sharing them with friends...the technology has gotten far better in the past two decades, but gamers are incredibly savvy and intelligent beings. Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture, but we've all created some form of database, excel engine etc, to make our lives easier when playing these games. This in no way presumes to affect a trademark or copyright held by any entity. My colleague and I have created a number of items which we've shared over the years, albeit not to turn a profit...simply to share.

Please resume the legal wrangling...it's quite entertaining!