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SS3 standard missile and continuous burn propulsion

Carlobrand

SOC-14 1K
Marquis
Issue arises as to the design of the "standard" missile and continuous burn propulsion. To whit:

According to Special Supplement 3, "Continuous Burn propulsion systems are solid fuel motors which operate at maximum efficiency when ignited and until their fuel is exhausted. They cannot be turned off once started. They are, however, relatively cheap, and technologically easy to manufacture.

"A continuous burn missile must always use its maximum acceleration in each turn until its fuel is exhausted. For example, a 3G6 continuous burn missile must accelerate 300 millimeters in its first turn and 300 millimeters in its second turn; thereafter, its fuel is exhausted. Continuous burn systems cannot alter course; they continue on the course given them when fired."

So, we're looking at your basic tube filled with solid propellant: once you ignite it, it keeps burning until the propellant's all used up.

The current "standard" missile design, per Errata 07, is, "a 5G6 continuous burn (36 kg, Cr3,600, TL 8), mass sensing (1 kg, Cr1,000, TL 10), proximity detonator (1 kg, Cr500, TL 6), high explosive (10 kg, Cr500, TL 6) warhead missile (all produced at their standard tech level), costing Cr5,600 and massing 48 kg. This price does not take into account tech level effects. At TL 9, this missile costs Cr5,540; at TL 12, it costs Cr4,480."

(minor errata point: the 5G6 is 35 kg and Cr3500)

Note that under current rules, the standard missile, "cannot alter course; they continue on the course given them when fired." So, if you don't hit the target in the first turn, the target needs only to "sidestep" for the missile to miss completely on the next or subsequent turns. Yet, this missile carries fuel for 6 turns. It also carries a guidance system - the mass sensor - even though it can't be guided; it has to continue on the course given at launch. It lacks a controller, a required component that needs to accompany the mass sensor, but in this case there's nothing to control because the rules say continuous burn missiles can't alter course.

There's actually no logic to the "cannot alter course" bit. There are several ways to alter course in vacuum. Some aren't practical for solid fuel missiles, but there are two ways to cause the missile to point its butt in a new direction and thereby alter course, and there's really no reason they can't be used regardless of the type of propulsion system:

1) You put small jets at key points along the body of the missile, just like you would on a ship. They don't have to be big or powerful - they just need to make a 50 kilogram tube turn on its axis, and they only need to do that a few times. Once they turn the missile, the propulsion system will provide the vector change.

2) You put a gyroscopic system in the missile. The gyroscopic system takes advantage of conservation of angular momentum: it's the principal that makes a top stay upright when it's spinning. Spin up the gyroscopic system before launch and it can be used to make the missile turn.

None of this alters the thrust output - the missile would still need to make a vector change equal to its thrust every turn until it runs out of fuel or hits something. However, it would be able to alter course to intercept a target. Inasmuch as these alternatives are effectively providing course adjustments, they'd be considered to be part of the controller.

The questions are: should we alter the "continuous burn" rules to permit a continuous burn missile to alter course, should we alter the standard missile to equip it with a controller, and should we change the propulsion system to a limited or discretionary burn propulsion system?
 
You can also use any of the following, all of which have been used on US solid-fueled ballistic missiles.

1. Deflector vanes in the exhaust nozzle.

2. Fluid injection into the exhaust, altering its direction.

3. Rotating the exhaust nozzle itself.
 
The questions are: should we alter the "continuous burn" rules to permit a continuous burn missile to alter course, should we alter the standard missile to equip it with a controller, and should we change the propulsion system to a limited or discretionary burn propulsion system?

Well, until you can show me a 50kg TL 6, 5G6 missile, scrap all of them...
 
Well, until you can show me a 50kg TL 6, 5G6 missile, scrap all of them...

I would agree regarding that. Five hundred kilograms would be more like it, if not a lot more. I would have to look at the mass ratio required for that acceleration to see if it is even possible with Tech Level 6 solid propellants, which would have a specific impulse on the order of 250 to a most 300.
 
I would agree regarding that. Five hundred kilograms would be more like it, if not a lot more. I would have to look at the mass ratio required for that acceleration to see if it is even possible with Tech Level 6 solid propellants, which would have a specific impulse on the order of 250 to a most 300.


It's not even possible for a 500kg rocket with warhead. (not if we're talking 10 minute turns) Not at TL 6 or 7 anyway. Above that is of course sci-fi.
 
Let's see -
Sidewinder AIM-9B: 8200lb-sec on 188lb (85kg) over 2.2 sec. 19.8G, with a 20lb payload. At 5G, it's still only 8 Sec; note that the AIM-9B has a curved acceleration plot, not a stable one, with a peak acceleration of 28G's for about 1/4 sec, limited by the increasing pressure wave of the supersonic. missile.
 
Let's see -
Sidewinder AIM-9B: 8200lb-sec on 188lb (85kg) over 2.2 sec. 19.8G, with a 20lb payload. At 5G, it's still only 8 Sec; note that the AIM-9B has a curved acceleration plot, not a stable one, with a peak acceleration of 28G's for about 1/4 sec, limited by the increasing pressure wave of the supersonic. missile.

Correct. So, the Trav missiles need to be scrapped and recreated at a much higher TL. But, the rules need to be internally consistent. Is it chem fueled? If so, rules for creating chem fueled space craft. If "grav", rules for vehicles of VERY small size using "grav" in deep space.
 
Correct. So, the Trav missiles need to be scrapped and recreated at a much higher TL. But, the rules need to be internally consistent. Is it chem fueled? If so, rules for creating chem fueled space craft. If "grav", rules for vehicles of VERY small size using "grav" in deep space.
While internally consistent is nice, it is not strictly necessary in this case.

For grav drives, there is a significant difference between a drive-power plant combination that needs to function once for about one hour and a vehicle that will provide years of reliable service.

The missile supplement (for Classic Traveller) is clear that the standard missiles are chemical, suggesting that chemical rocket spacecraft are possible. However, the existence of modern missiles suggests that rocket powered aircraft are possible (and they are), but does not prove that rocket powered aircraft are more economical than other propulsion forms (like jets). Likewise, chemical missiles in CT suggest that chemical spacecraft are possible, but that does not necessarily mean that they exist ... grav drives appear more economical for craft and rockets appear more economical for missiles.

There is also the issue of "what we don't know". For example, I know enough about chemistry that I could create fulminates (percussion caps) given the resources of a TL 2 culture, but a TL 2 culture might or might not have discovered fulminates. In the same way, who knows what might be discovered at TL 10 that could be manufactured at TL 6 ... only we have not discovered it yet. I will freely grant that this is a weak argument, but it is one that cannot be disproved.

Frankly, most of the game mechanics of Classic Traveller are far more geared towards 'playability' that 'realism'. Missile propulsion is no exception. Adding realism will start a landslide of changes that will greatly alter the core mechanics of the game. Over 30 years of popularity suggests that this is not generally desirable.

YMMV.
 
While internally consistent is nice, it is not strictly necessary in this case.

For my players it is. They don't go for fantasy in the game. We're playing by MGT rules right now. I dropped missiles for now. The rules don't allow for them. Either on Chemical M-drives or with Grav drives.
 
. . .
Note that under current rules, the standard missile, "cannot alter course; they continue on the course given them when fired." So, if you don't hit the target in the first turn, the target needs only to "sidestep" for the missile to miss completely on the next or subsequent turns. Yet, this missile carries fuel for 6 turns. It also carries a guidance system - the mass sensor - even though it can't be guided. . .

I don't have SS3 so I can't be certain if there are rules related to this or not but I would imagine that a ship firing multiple missiles could fire a 'spread'. With enough missiles a ship could find it has nowhere to run even if it takes several turns for the missiles to reach it (alternately, even if all the missiles fired by a ship have to be fired in the exact same direction a spread could be achieved my multiple ships).

As for the mass sensor, I would guess it is used for proximity detonation. At nearly any distance I would guess the odds of physically striking an enemy ship with an unguided missile would be very low.
 
I don't have SS3 so I can't be certain if there are rules related to this or not but I would imagine that a ship firing multiple missiles could fire a 'spread'. With enough missiles a ship could find it has nowhere to run

Not unless almost point blank range. Otherwise, no way in hell. You aren't grasping the distances involved, the size of ships in relation to that and, just how slow missiles are in conjunction with all of that.
 
For my players it is. They don't go for fantasy in the game. We're playing by MGT rules right now. I dropped missiles for now. The rules don't allow for them. Either on Chemical M-drives or with Grav drives.
Is that selective, or do you (as a collective gaming group) apply hard science across the board [laser focal lengths, massive heat signature, etc.]?
... I was just curious, since over-efficient drives are just one of many Traveller vs. Reality conflict points.

Back on the subject of missile design, I would suspect that a 'minimum' missile really needs two (2) one-turn continuous burns. The first one-turn burn would launch the missile on a vector to the general vicinity of where the target will be when the missile crosses its predicted vector, and a second one-turn burn to 'intercept' the target when the missile gets close. The computer guidance is responsible for the first burn and the missile's internal guidance is responsible for the second burn.

Playing with vectors shows that most ship's have such a large forward vector that 'maneuvering' to avoid a missile will still present a fairly narrow cone of possible future positions, creating a reasonable possibility that the missile will find itself within a one-turn intercept burn of the target at some point in it's flight.

Greater realism would probably require all ship combat be conducted at much shorter ranges, but I am OK with Traveller's 'space opera' qualities ... I like Star Wars and Serenity (the movies), too. :)

Just my thoughts on the subject.
 
Not unless almost point blank range. Otherwise, no way in hell. You aren't grasping the distances involved, the size of ships in relation to that and, just how slow missiles are in conjunction with all of that.

No. I grasp it. As I said later in my post I assume that the missiles only have to get relatively close to the ship to effectively detonate. In this case 'relative' means that it is operating at the same scale as the models (i.e. if the 'real' distance is such that it would count as a missile strike at model scales).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that firing these massive spreads of unguided missiles is a particularly good strategy. You would only land a small amount of your firepower 'on target'. I'm just saying that it is possible to do so (and possible in this case doesn't require an act of divine intervention) so the missiles do need to be capable of accelerating over multiple turns.
 
No. I grasp it. As I said later in my post I assume that the missiles only have to get relatively close to the ship to effectively detonate.

Unless they are nukes, they will have to actually hit. A nuc from that small a missile would have to get within ~1 km.
 
Unless they are nukes, they will have to actually hit. A nuc from that small a missile would have to get within ~1 km.
If that's the case then you would need alternate rules for unguided missiles which basically says they are completely ineffective at anything beyond a certain (very short) range. After even just part of a turn a pilot would be able to maneuver enough to prevent them from hitting him, even though on the game scale map they would collide.
 
You missed the point by about 1,000 light years. INTERNAL CONSISTENCY is what it is about. NOT science.

Where is the internal inconsistency in small, single use missiles using solid rocket fuel (which is an impractical propellant for manned spacecraft) and manned spacecraft use gravity drives (which are impractical for something as small as a missile and too expensive for single use)?

But, the rules need to be internally consistent. Is it chem fueled? If so, rules for creating chem fueled space craft.
If you really need rules for creating a manned chemical spacecraft capable of 5 turns of operation at 6 gees before being scrapped (:confused:), then SS3 should work just fine for building a large 'missile' to install a human payload as the 'warhead'.
 
Where is the internal inconsistency in small, single use missiles using solid rocket fuel (which is an impractical propellant for manned spacecraft) and manned spacecraft use gravity drives (which are impractical for something as small as a missile and too expensive for single use)?

See TL's for more info...
 
All very interesting points, but the question at hand is not whether SS3 presents a realistic propulsion system: it is widely accepted that it does not. I am not exploring a complete rewrite of SS3, though that would make for an interesting thread. I am exploring a possible point of errata within the SS3 rules system - namely that the standard missile design produces a missile that carries 6 turns of fuel but, under the rules, is pretty much useless after the first turn.

The behavior of continuous burn propulsion systems - unable to change course - appears odd given that there are any number of methods to make it possible to change course, so one option is to revise that rule to make it possible for continuous burn propulsion systems to change course. That makes sense but might render the limited burn system pointless (not necessarily a bad thing - that system has its own share of oddness, and I would not grieve to see it go away). The alternative is to make no rule changes but to modify the standard missile design, perhaps making it a limited or discretionary burn system instead.
 
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