T5.09, p.270:
T5.09, p.271:
BTW, as an aside, also note that the LL weapon restrictions have changed under the T5 rules (see T5.09 chart p. 409). (e.g. Lasers are now only restricted at level 4 and higher, etc).
Starport Law Level
- Thread starter Ronnke
- Start date
T5.09, p.270:
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
A thought:
The texts in both editions of Traveller Book 3 both state a starport's laws are not the same as the world's laws. Neither says anything about a uniformity of Law Level or laws across all starports.
It seems to me that the statements in Book 3 make it clear that the laws and law levels might be anything in a starport, up to the whims of the Referee. Some starports might be quite lawful, others quite scum and villainy.
As the Imperium became more defined and powerful though the years, taking over space and making sure all was peaceful all the time, it became standard for starports to become uniform in their laws and procedures.
But, originally, this was neither stated nor implied in the rules. All the rules did was offer more variety for a traveller to experience as he moved between star systems.
***
My own view of the original intention of Book 3, looking at the Dumarest books, is that there was an implied "interstellar community" that took charge of starports and shipping matters, with its own culture and conventions. Everyone on a planet left them alone, and by the same token, the interstellar community left the local worlds alone. Both cultures needed the other for trade, news, and commerce. If one side broke the habitual conventions, such things might dry up. Both sides policed their own folks, and both sides would bring force to bear agains the other if needed.
You land on the world. You're still in the starport. If you behave like and ass, then it will be the folks around you, who conduct their lives and business at starports and within starships, who will deal with you first.
But once you pass that chainlink fence and step onto the soil of "The World"... well, then your their problem now... and they are yours.
Not saying that is the situation once the The Third Imperium starts getting built out, or what the rules state over a dozen iterations as the rules and the OTU grow and change. Just looking at how the game seems to have been set up based on the original rules and the tales that inspired them.
To me, this is just an assumption people have been making: that the Imperium is standards-driven and consistent. OTOH there are numerous references to the Imperium being a rather weak government that has difficulty enforcing its will.
Perhaps the distinction to be made is between those starports in the Imperial Core which are more "standardized", and those out on the Frontiers which are much more "individually unique".
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
He's going to ignore it most of the time, but have a call in to the local merc on tap in case you start trouble.
The one with RAM GL-4 and an autolauncher, and who will get paid with your PGMP-13.
Hell, selling that one might get him off-planet and back in the game again.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I kinda doubt you can lug around an FGMP-15 in open carry in a Starport.
Ronnke, if you're still monitoring this thread, I'd like you to read this blog post. (And not just because I'm quoted in it!)
In it that post, Creativehum neatly and succinctly describes Mr. Miller's and the rest of GDW's mindset and style of play when Traveller was created and played by them forty years ago. While that 1970s mindset and style undoubtedly changed over the years, it is still part of Traveller's DNA.
I think if you read that blog post - really read it - you'll find most of your rules and settings questions 'answered".
Good luck with your sessions and please tell us how they turned out.
In it that post, Creativehum neatly and succinctly describes Mr. Miller's and the rest of GDW's mindset and style of play when Traveller was created and played by them forty years ago. While that 1970s mindset and style undoubtedly changed over the years, it is still part of Traveller's DNA.
I think if you read that blog post - really read it - you'll find most of your rules and settings questions 'answered".
Good luck with your sessions and please tell us how they turned out.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
With respect to this discussion, the following quote is offered as a means of making the idea that a starport has no Law Level erroneous.
The source of the quote is The Traveller Book, which is definitely canon, and "Exit Visa" is one of the adventures included in the book. I would highly recommend the reading of the adventure, which I believe is included in some of the consolidated adventure collections as well as The Traveller Book.
For those not familiar with the adventure, Alell is a member planet of the Imperium, 0106-B46789C-A, located in the Regina sub-sector of the Spinward Marches, one parsec away from Efate. The Law Level is quite high at "C". To get off of the planet, the Free Trader "Beowolf" requires an Exit Visa, which can only be issued by a government official of the PLANET, not any member of the Starport Authority, which is the adventure is totally under the control of and operated by the planet, not the Imperium.
In my opinion, this adventure blows a pretty big hole in the "extraterritorial" status of all Imperium starports. For starports on planets outside of the Imperium, I would argue that the "extraterritorial status" does not apply whatsoever, and the government controlling the the area the starport is located dictates the controlling Law Level. In the case of Balkanized worlds, you would likely have a wide range of Law Levels to deal with, depending on the number of spaceports on the planet.
Another factor in the whole issue of weapons is the following, which appears in the section on hijacking in The Traveller Adventure.
Given the known Imperial Rules of War covering nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, a ship's captain, upon knowing that one of his passengers was carrying prohibited material, the cited material being Sarin, would be perfectly justified in not releasing such material to a passenger, and immediately upon landing inform the Imperial authorities of the violation. That could also apply to an attempt to bring high Technology Level equipment to a world where such imports are barred by the Imperium.
The source of the quote is The Traveller Book, which is definitely canon, and "Exit Visa" is one of the adventures included in the book. I would highly recommend the reading of the adventure, which I believe is included in some of the consolidated adventure collections as well as The Traveller Book.
For those not familiar with the adventure, Alell is a member planet of the Imperium, 0106-B46789C-A, located in the Regina sub-sector of the Spinward Marches, one parsec away from Efate. The Law Level is quite high at "C". To get off of the planet, the Free Trader "Beowolf" requires an Exit Visa, which can only be issued by a government official of the PLANET, not any member of the Starport Authority, which is the adventure is totally under the control of and operated by the planet, not the Imperium.
In my opinion, this adventure blows a pretty big hole in the "extraterritorial" status of all Imperium starports. For starports on planets outside of the Imperium, I would argue that the "extraterritorial status" does not apply whatsoever, and the government controlling the the area the starport is located dictates the controlling Law Level. In the case of Balkanized worlds, you would likely have a wide range of Law Levels to deal with, depending on the number of spaceports on the planet.
Another factor in the whole issue of weapons is the following, which appears in the section on hijacking in The Traveller Adventure.
Given the known Imperial Rules of War covering nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, a ship's captain, upon knowing that one of his passengers was carrying prohibited material, the cited material being Sarin, would be perfectly justified in not releasing such material to a passenger, and immediately upon landing inform the Imperial authorities of the violation. That could also apply to an attempt to bring high Technology Level equipment to a world where such imports are barred by the Imperium.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
First, based on Mercenary, page 13:
Emphasis added.
If you are not wearing your Battle Dress, but are waving a PGMP-13 around, he might just pull out an automatic pistol and terminate your existence before any of the surrounding scenery gets hurt. If you are wearing Battle Dress, the ship's captain might decide to make the ship scarce before you decide to hijack it, assuming that he releases the ironmongery to you to begin with. Once the ship is gone, the locals just wait, and in this case the local government probably controls the Law Level of the "D" class starport, until either your Battle Dress runs out of power, your PGMP-13 needs maintenance to remain working properly,
or you take it off, or you go to sleep. Then they kill you as a menace to the planet. Of course, they may have had such problems before, and invested in the necessary means to deal with such individuals, by having some trained Imperial Marine veterans on hand as a welcoming committee. You did not say what the Tech Level of this world is, and there are some "D" and "E" class starports with reasonable Tech Levels in the Spinward Marches.
Exit Visa was re-skinned several times and each time set on different worlds, be they Imperial, non-Imperial, or even proto-Imperial. It's easily the most "re-run" adventure in Traveller, showing up in early and often in CT and taking it's final bow in T4.
Much like how the often re-skinned Mikado tells us nothing factual about Shogun-era Japan, Exit Visa tells us very little about the many different Imperiums it takes place in.
It's rather clear that the worlds, plus their membership or lack of membership in the Imperium, on which Exit Visa is set add nothing to the adventure other than different backdrops. The offices visited, bureaucratic titles, Imperial officials, documents required, all remain the same whether the action occurs on Alell, Arden, Zila, or Arglebargle-IX.
Ship in the Lake was re-skinned a few times also. I know it's last re-run on Heya drove Hans and I crazy due to the geographical descriptions. It was just as bad as Heya's inhabitable moon which appeared as if by magic in GT:Star Mercs.
Back on topic and Ronnke's original question is moot. The LL1 "rule" he found is from the Mongoose version of the game and the first edition at that. His best course of action is to simply ignore it.
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Got it, thanks.
If you are interested you're welcome to read the campaign blog (Traveller: The New Deal):
http://blog.olympusrpg.org/?cat=14
For the record. It's mentioned in both 1st and 2nd editions of MgT. I will be ignoring it for my games.
Allow me to introduce you to the concept of hyberbole
It's an exaggeration of ideas for the purpose of emphasis.
I strongly doubt that any of the posters in this thread were seriously suggesting that someone would wear battledress while buying a lottery ticket, attend the ballgame with a flask of Sarin, jog through the starport park with a fanny pack full of C4, or attempt any of the other exaggerated actions used as examples in this discussion.
Instead they "inflated" their ideas to the point of ridiculousness in order to emphasize what may be a problem with how Law Level is perceived and employed.
Thanks for the link!
Oooh... I like that 3rd picture in the March 13th entry. The one with the crashed ship(?) and the ATV parked nearby?
There's much more than a 1000 worlds in that picture!
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Rather than view the original question as "moot", as it was based on the Mongoose version of Traveller, the question of "extraterritoriality" in Traveller is still a perfectly valid issue.
While going through the 1977 edition of Book 3, Worlds and Adventures, I came across the following statement on page 1. It does help to read ALL of the pages (kicks himself in rear a few times).
Emphasis added.
The statement also appears in the 1981 edition of Book 3, at the top of page 5, and in Traveller: Starter Edition Book 1 on page 43 at the bottom of the left-hand column, and in The Traveller Book on page 80 in roughly the middle of the right-hand column.
Based on this, the idea that a starport is automatically an extraterritorial enclave appears to be highly questionable, even within the Imperium. Clearly, that is an issue for the planetary government or local government to determine, and if it decides that the local Law Level applies, it does.
Then, checking T5.09, the following statement appears on page 271.
That does not appear to allow for a claim of extraterritorial rights for a starport, but gives the local government a considerable amount of control.
Therefore, it would appear that the local government Law Level may very well apply to the starport, with that decision up to the Game Master to decide, and so advise his/her players.
While going through the 1977 edition of Book 3, Worlds and Adventures, I came across the following statement on page 1. It does help to read ALL of the pages (kicks himself in rear a few times).
Emphasis added.
The statement also appears in the 1981 edition of Book 3, at the top of page 5, and in Traveller: Starter Edition Book 1 on page 43 at the bottom of the left-hand column, and in The Traveller Book on page 80 in roughly the middle of the right-hand column.
Based on this, the idea that a starport is automatically an extraterritorial enclave appears to be highly questionable, even within the Imperium. Clearly, that is an issue for the planetary government or local government to determine, and if it decides that the local Law Level applies, it does.
Then, checking T5.09, the following statement appears on page 271.
That does not appear to allow for a claim of extraterritorial rights for a starport, but gives the local government a considerable amount of control.
Therefore, it would appear that the local government Law Level may very well apply to the starport, with that decision up to the Game Master to decide, and so advise his/her players.
Bill, have you read the Falkenberg's Legion series, or the Hammer's Slammers series? In both, it wouldn't be uncommon to see a merc carrying his full field-kit through a starport, wearing his armor to avoid dragging it, plus his B4 and his duffel.
The Starport may require a muzzle lock quay to quay, but not otherwise restrict carrying... and the skipper has you drop your kit at the cargo hatch, and checks your B4 for anything risky to the ship and crew before letting you board with it, and may even muzzle-lock the ones in the hold, "just in case"...
MTU is much the same. Then again, I have run a few games where the PC's were mercs, and mercs without a ship at that. Nothing like an out of work Battalion showing up on a world en route to a job or to the hiring hall, 300 men with battledress, heavy weapons, field kits, a few G-carriers and a couple fire-support grav-tanks... and the skipped chump-dumped the unit.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
There have also been adventures that point to a planetary government's will and ability to limit access to the port in the first place. One of them is a DGP adventure from Traveller's Digest, to be sure, but it does illustrate the consequences implied by Exit Visa. Starports, even fully Imperial ones, are not *necessarily* Imperial Embassies (though there may be one of those attached to the starport) and crossing that extrality line is not *necessarily* a "get out of felony charges free" card. On some worlds it will be, while on others it will not. Thus is the spice of adventure kept spicy.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Who runs the starport - roll 1d:
1- Imperial - noble fief, guaranteed if a scout base, waystation, IN base present
2- Planetary government
3- Planetary private corporation
4- Subsector wide corporation
5- Sector wide corporation
6- Megacorporation
1- Imperial - noble fief, guaranteed if a scout base, waystation, IN base present
2- Planetary government
3- Planetary private corporation
4- Subsector wide corporation
5- Sector wide corporation
6- Megacorporation
IMTU that table looks more like:
<9: One or more Imperial fiefs
10-11: Some imperial agency (if a base, it matches)
12: 1d6: 1-3 local goverment, 4-5 interstellar corporation (usually a megacorp), 6 for profit corporation.
It's entirely possible that the starport is....
Which situation holds is going to depend on things like starport class, how much trade, how populous the world, etc. -- more so, I think, than the presence of bases which are for all intents and purposes separate facilities.
Also, a starport could be non-extraterritorial but still operate under laws more relaxed than those of the world itself, especially if the local law level is extreme. Alternatively, there is no reason on an LL 0 world that the starport could not operate under restrictive regulations.
- extraterritorial and run by the Imperium
- extraterritorial, owned by the Imperium and run by a corporation
- extraterritorial, run by and owned by a corporation
- not extraterritorial, run by and owned by a corporation
- not extraterritorial, owned by local government and run by a corporation
- etc. etc.
Which situation holds is going to depend on things like starport class, how much trade, how populous the world, etc. -- more so, I think, than the presence of bases which are for all intents and purposes separate facilities.
Also, a starport could be non-extraterritorial but still operate under laws more relaxed than those of the world itself, especially if the local law level is extreme. Alternatively, there is no reason on an LL 0 world that the starport could not operate under restrictive regulations.
