TTA shows us that the scout and naval bases on Aramis/Aramis are in fact immediately to either side of the civil port facilities, and in fact, more connected to the port than to the city which the port serves.
Starport Law Level
- Thread starter Ronnke
- Start date
TTA shows us that the scout and naval bases on Aramis/Aramis are in fact immediately to either side of the civil port facilities, and in fact, more connected to the port than to the city which the port serves.
But you also have to consider that the above statements appear to be dealing with a broad general case, and not necessarily to Imperial member-world starports in particular. In other words, on a non-aligned world outside the Imperium or in a foreign interstellar state (or even in some cases an Imperial Client State), extrality may not apply, whereas it may be the norm for an Imperial member-world. (And that distinction is where adventures can begin
). OTOH, even a foreign power or independent world may very well choose to treat its own locally owned and operated starport as extraterritorial (if for no other reason than to not discourage trade), at the very least for travellers and goods that are moving through the port, as opposed to those that are disembarking or cargo being delivered on-world.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Despite valiant efforts of some to make it seem otherwise, we all really do know that the Third Imperium and the OTU actually is only assumptions, right?
For 40 years different rules support different kinds of logic and assumptions for both implied and explicit setting.
That the setting materials contradict each other constantly.
That people read different things into different passages, cobble them together with other selected passages, and create in their own thoughts the way the Imperium really is. Even within the printed materials, there is no single Imperium.
And this doesn't even touch on what non-RPG materials a person has read. How one interprets the rules and setting materials will be influenced by what one has studied in life, experienced in life, and what one has read (specifically science-fiction). All of these things will filter how read in the Traveller texts and interpret them.
Things started getting wonky as early as 1980 for Classic Traveller, when Adventure 1: The Kinunir introduces a Battle Cruiser that is 1,200 tons (which makes sense using the tonnage range found in Book 2), and Book 5: High Guard, which introduces rules for making ships that range up to a 1,000,000,000 tons. While there was no need to assume that huge ships would end up being part of the OTU, they quickly become part of it. Rending the Kinunir as a Battle Cruiser a thorn in the side of Hans and others who scrambled constantly to justify all the contradictions of a setting that was made up on the fly and piecemeal.
This is why there are constant arguments about how or why the Imperial nobility work one way or another. Or the way starports work (or don't work). And so on.
We are left with (at least in my view) choosing which materials and ideas we want to use, pointing at them clearly, and saying, "This is my setting, theses are the ideas I'm using."
This is how some of us can identify a period called Proto-Traveller, which is distinct in nature from later versions of Traveller (and the setting that came attached to it). And how I can identify something that is even earlier than Proto-Traveller (which I now identify as "original Traveller") which lacks any concerns about the Third Imperium or the OTU, and looks at Books 1-3 as a springboard for making any number of settings at the Referee wishes.
We can point to any sentence or paragraph we want. But we're pulling form texts that were published across years, and then decades, often without coherence, and often with people with very different agendas for the kind of setting they thought the OTU should be.
Example: I want an adventure-rich, dangerous, frontier, where traveling between the stars is exceptional and for a hardy breed. Hans explicitly said he wanted a setting where college students and tourists could casually travel from world to world without worry or concern. My model is Age of Sail, with empires in conflict, exploring and trading between Europe and India and around the globe. Hans' was 20th Century First World Europe.
What are the straport law levels like? What do you want them to be like? They will be a reflection of your interests, your setting, and the logic behind it. Are they well regulated, clean, and calm? Or are they an romanticized-version of pirate dwelling Tortuga? Or do they vary between these extremes from world-to-world?
There is no right answer. Even those of you who will bring in "logic" or "it has to make sense" into the discussion.
The books that inspired Marc Miller to create Traveller (The Van Rijn tales, the Dumarest Books, the Demon Prince books, among many others) don't make sense outside of their own logic. That is, they are self-consistent within their own logic, per story, and that's it. They are a colorful, exaggerated pulp science-fiction... which is a fine thing to be! And if one wants a setting the is more Hard SF, then go for it.
Certainly the Traveller OUT has been taffy-pulled in several directions over the decades.
So, the only question is: What flavor of taffy do you want? What sort of texture? There really is no real "universe" out there. The material is inconsistent and contradictory. So, all that is left is for you to pick through the inspirations you love the most and make what you want to share with your friends.
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I was half-expecting someone to point that out even as I typed that last post.
But although the bases are within the starport boundaries and are more connected to the port than to the city, they remain essentially separate. They are not dependent on the starport for basic services as merchants are (although they may share certain services such as traffic control). That's not to say that in some cases a base and a civil port might not share most services.
In any case, the presence of a base does not dictate that the adjoining civil facilities are owned and operated by the Imperium.
My take is that rich, populous worlds with busy trade ports are more likely to own and operate their own ports; mid-class facilities are more likely to be run by an Imperial starport authority; and blasted patches of rock on backwater worlds which are euphemistically called "Dungheap Down Starport" by local civic boosters are probably owned and operated by said local civic boosters.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I would say that very accurately sums up the question of an OTU for everyone. Everyone has their own concept of an OTU.
I definitely lean towards the Age of Sail universe than the nice, placid one, which is why I am working up my own sector.
Bingo, give the man a massive boost in reputation.
dmccoy1693
SOC-13
I've read much of the thread (sorry if this is mentioned elsewhere and I missed it), but there's an important point missing: this only applies in the Imperium. Come to Foreven, away from the Imperium while avoiding the Zhodani, and you will find that local law very much applies, that the law level of the planet is the law level of the star port.
Not necessarily ... law level within the port boundaries may be lower because the local government decides to make it so, to stimulate trade. This is particularly likely where the local law level is very high.
Similarly, law level within the port boundaries may be higher if the local government wants it that way for security reasons. This is likely if local law level is very low.
One other thought- with more resources and more commerce at stake, starport law level should probably be pegged to the starport level itself- higher the facility quality, higher the law level.
The idea would be that how starports are run differ from planet to planet based on dealing with the locals, difference in ideas of governance and 'we've always done it this way' creeping in, and levels of resources available to enforce LL.
Gamewise, it would be about providing differentiation between ports and how to do things at each planet.
Something like
3d6-Starport=SLL
where starport is literally the hex value of the starport designation, and SLL is Starport Law Level.
Would create potentially a LL8 A starport, but that would be rare, the top LL scales down as the facilities get more rustic, and on average most starports would be LL0 anyway.
4d6 might be appropriate for core world sectors.
If your polity is tight enough and so inclined, simply roll one value for all starports and apply it universally.
Note, LL0 does not mean absence of LE, simply that a libertarian ethos of personal responsibility applies coupled with a lot of 'private security', and idjits with plasma guns will likely get the same end result as one at a LL8 starport.
Possibly worse as there would likely be no mitigating reason, culture or law to 'bring em in alive'.
Interesting byproducts to think about with low SLL-
If you want to be REALLY mean, make the starport 'safe' sin spots be accessible on a SOC standing basis- locals and travellers can get to the starport entertainment facilities with something like 9+ SOC and 5x the costs, startown is the only option for lower standing crew and locals.
The idea would be that how starports are run differ from planet to planet based on dealing with the locals, difference in ideas of governance and 'we've always done it this way' creeping in, and levels of resources available to enforce LL.
Gamewise, it would be about providing differentiation between ports and how to do things at each planet.
Something like
3d6-Starport=SLL
where starport is literally the hex value of the starport designation, and SLL is Starport Law Level.
Would create potentially a LL8 A starport, but that would be rare, the top LL scales down as the facilities get more rustic, and on average most starports would be LL0 anyway.
4d6 might be appropriate for core world sectors.
If your polity is tight enough and so inclined, simply roll one value for all starports and apply it universally.
Note, LL0 does not mean absence of LE, simply that a libertarian ethos of personal responsibility applies coupled with a lot of 'private security', and idjits with plasma guns will likely get the same end result as one at a LL8 starport.
Possibly worse as there would likely be no mitigating reason, culture or law to 'bring em in alive'.
Interesting byproducts to think about with low SLL-
- shore leave is likely to be like the separation of Wild West cowtowns between the cowboys and their saloons/brothels, blowing off steam at the end of the trail, and the civilized 'no-go' part of town with the 'decent citizens' of the planet, a lot of effort to keep the booze coming while keeping the crews in-port,
- starports might end up culturally less like a seaport/airport and being more like Las Vegas in the 60s and 70s, a dazzling place of highly concentrated adult entertainment unavailable locally that imports sin and exports planetary money while the local politics berate that 'interstellar den of sin',
- startown as we know it would still exist, but it likely would be a 'lower rent' not as fun/safe area to do the same thing as the tonier in-port 'facilities', with a constant cat and mouse interplay between local LL LE trying to enforce planetary law, and interests in keeping sin money on-planet/extracting off-planet crew money- a whole LOT of bribery going on and 'take your chances' shore leave,
- starport security is less about justice and more about keeping the wheels of commerce going- that means a laser focus on smuggling control and facility/personnel safety to keep the goods flowing,
- with low SLL the bribery roll is ALSO low, it will take some serious smuggling skill to get past starport security, even if the locals are very corrupt, and
- the local government/rebels may want to think thrice about using ANY force against the starport, besides any interstellar political military and economic consequences everyone in that starport is likely heavily armed with higher technology and not under military command, and no telling what armament is sitting in warehouses and cargo holds that can be commandeered in emergencies.
If you want to be REALLY mean, make the starport 'safe' sin spots be accessible on a SOC standing basis- locals and travellers can get to the starport entertainment facilities with something like 9+ SOC and 5x the costs, startown is the only option for lower standing crew and locals.
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Good points kilemall.
Made me think of something: if starport LL was always low, why would startown typically lie outside the extrality line? You would have a lot more incentive to start up bars, brothels, and dens of iniquity inside the extrality line where local laws can't touch you. Obviously part of the explanation is that the starport has limited space, but I think of airport concourses and airport hotels.
Makes a lot of sense to me that major starports would be fairly regulated environments.
Made me think of something: if starport LL was always low, why would startown typically lie outside the extrality line? You would have a lot more incentive to start up bars, brothels, and dens of iniquity inside the extrality line where local laws can't touch you. Obviously part of the explanation is that the starport has limited space, but I think of airport concourses and airport hotels.
Makes a lot of sense to me that major starports would be fairly regulated environments.
Mostly because, within the starport extrality line, space is at a premium. It's a fixed space with a fairly high use rate - you've got a chandlery, a bank, the fuel center, the yard offices, the yards, and the security forces. And the landing zones.
Altered my post in line with limited space economics and character differentiation.
Think Las Vegas at Hawaii rates with exclusive snobbiness/discretion, like what Palm Springs originally was.
At major ports I think you can expect to find restaurants and hotel facilities within the extrality line, similar to what we find at airports. If I'm a passenger on a long journey involving a series of jumps I may prefer not to deal with all the issues with clearing immigration at every high-LL world along my route.
Are starports government run, with minimal facilties, or are they essentially businesses? I'd suggest the correct answer is "it depends." And when run as businesses, you'll see pressure to put all kinds of profitable services inside the port boundary for the convenience of travellers.
Are starports government run, with minimal facilties, or are they essentially businesses? I'd suggest the correct answer is "it depends." And when run as businesses, you'll see pressure to put all kinds of profitable services inside the port boundary for the convenience of travellers.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
And a Starbuck's.
I would expect pressure for in-port businesses even if government run, if only to defray operating costs from whoever pays for these starports, planets and/or interstellar governments/corps.
Another kind of business would be the 'showroom', a lot easier to ship in samples to look at/poke rather then deal with customs to get the product on-planet to each planet and could show through travellers as well.
Even have trade shows and a convention business (which wouldn't hurt the feelings or the bottom line of the passenger liners).
The planet would likely have a tourist bureau onsite, to entice people to stay awhile (and all those noisy people at the beach resorts are just hooligans not a full-blown rebellion, trust us and spend here).
A subtle bit of business would be the intersection of the interstellar culture we have discussed before and the local planetary culture.
While the interstellar polity would likely put good business relations first and not be pushy about the interstellar POV, there would likely be an intentional effort to bring 'culture' to the planet, and so there could be shows, exhibitions and the like made available.
Another type of interstellar business that comes to mind is fashion. People would absolutely want to know what they are wearing at Regina or Capital. Probably not a full-blown fashion show/convention (more likely hosted at rich cities on planet), but showrooms for buyers to look at and arrange for lot purchases.
dmccoy1693
SOC-13
True, but that is because the local government decided that, as opposed to the Imperium's say so.
I believe any starport without a Starbucks is automatically demoted to class C.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Not being a fan of Starbucks, I would not reclassify a starport based on their absence. In addition, it is hard to say what they might be serving in the Spinward Marches, except that it probably is not Terra-grown coffee.
Note, I am a fan of coffee. A local coffee shop has been serving a terrific one from Kenya of late. Had an excellent cup of one from El Salvador this week as well.
Somewhere between :coffeesip: and :coffeegulp:.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There's always the Golden Arches, hundred trillion I Can't Believe It's Not Beef soya burgers served.
