Starports

[far-trader]

I figure E means it has been surveyed and marked suitable for landings. Typically it's in the navigation charts and will have some field marker, a simple stone ring or an automated beacon.

While X means no survey, no gurantee of a suitable landing site, you take your chances if you set down, nothing is detailed in the navigation charts. Either because it's a useless place to go or it is actively denied as a stop (i.e. Red Zone/Interdicted).

 

[Malenfant]

Checking CT bk6 p28, it says E is "Frontier Installation, no facilities", and X is "No Starport, generally a red travel zone". So it actually sounds like E is the "cleared out area with shacks next to it" type thing, and X is nothing at all.

So actually E isn't quite just a bare patch of ground - there is a difference between the two.

 

[Liam Devlin]

And you two have been around the block a few times Mal, Far Trader. Never mind the newcomers to the game (and its current incarnations & mechanics). Do you both see why we need to clear the dust on even Class E & Class X?

X for no survey is a valid take, but doesn't cover all aspects dan. For those playing TNE-1248 for example, that means entirely a different aspect. X can then also equal Xenophobia/Technophobia--used to have one, don't now (or as of time of survey by whomever passed over and attempted landing & chit-chat). It can also stand for "Former Starport in ruins", like on dead-boneyard-cemetery worlds.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Checking CT bk6 p28, it says E is "Frontier Installation, no facilities", and X is "No Starport, generally a red travel zone". So it actually sounds like E is the "cleared out area with shacks next to it" type thing, and X is nothing at all.

So actually E isn't quite just a bare patch of ground - there is a difference between the two.

Agreed Mal, what is probably uniform about an E-class (terrain and planet notwithstanding) is that they have the basic Imperial Starport features:

+Landing area
+Place where cargo is schlepped off & onto from
+Place where Passengers debark, load up from
+Xtrality boundary
+Nearby unrefined fuel source.

 

[Malenfant]

well, D is specifically mentioned to have unrefined fuel. E doesn't even have that. So D might be near a lake or something, and E is nowhere near one?

The extrality boundary is a good point. It may be just shacks and cleared ground, but E is still imperial territory. Whereas X isn't.

 

[Liam Devlin]

E Might have no fuel whatsoever as well, Mal. But if any water bearing body (frozen or thawed, of gas giant) is in system its unrefined.

 

[Malenfant]

yeah but the point is presumably that there's no fuel at the starport if it's E, but there is unrefined fuel at the starport if it's D.

The definition implies (by omission) that E has no refined or unrefined fuel - it has "no facilities". C and D have unrefined fuel only, and A and B have refined fuel only (it doesn't say they have both though - if they have refined fuel, why would they have unrefined too?)

To me that says that C and D have either a lake nearby to tap for fuel, or have unrefined fuel shipped in from elsewhere... but E doesn't - it's just shacks and a pad and a fence and that's it. The definition strongly implies that there are no unrefined fuel sources near an E, that's the only way its definition makes sense.

 

[far-trader]

Maybe the difference is there is no one charging and collecting Imperial Credits* for fuel at anything less than a D starport? So D and better has a manned presence with fuel in pumps ready to sell, while E and poorer doesn't?

* Or whatever polity currency passes as interstellar coin.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
yeah but the point is presumably that there's no fuel at the starport if it's E, but there is unrefined fuel at the starport if it's D.

Strictly speaking, I defined "no facilities" in the fuel aspect as "serve yourself" if the water /ice/ belt/ gas giant is present. IMO, this means, pump it/ refine it yourself Oh Mighty Starman!

The definition implies (by omission) that E has no refined or unrefined fuel - it has "no facilities". C and D have unrefined fuel only, and A and B have refined fuel only (it doesn't say they have both though - if they have refined fuel, why would they have unrefined too?)

To me that says that C and D have either a lake nearby to tap for fuel, or have unrefined fuel shipped in from elsewhere... but E doesn't - it's just shacks and a pad and a fence and that's it. The definition strongly implies that there are no unrefined fuel sources near an E, that's the only way its definition makes sense.

C & D-yes, facilities to do so, and even personnel to pump the fuel. E-class no facility or fueler crew does not mean in the UWP (unless Hyd 0/ Belts 0/ GG 0) there is no fuel, and is yet another reason to clarify the system.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Strictly speaking, I defined "no facilities" in the fuel aspect as "serve yourself" if the water /ice/ belt/ gas giant is present. IMO, this means, pump it/ refine it yourself Oh Mighty Starman!

that's what it looks like to me too. So yeah, I guess you could have a lake nearby, it's just nobody at the starport itself has bothered to pump and store it anywhere as unrefined fuel.

C & D-yes, facilities to do so, and even personnel to pump the fuel. E-class no facility or fueler crew does not mean in the UWP (unless Hyd 0/ Belts 0/ GG 0) there is no fuel, and is yet another reason to clarify the system.

Well if hyd is indicated, or if there are GGs, then it's obvious that there's fuel in the system. The E starport just tells you that there's no fuel available at the starport.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Correct in all aspects Mal. This is just one facet of the "How to read the UWP for starport information" on that eight-digit string (plus trade/stellar data). Starport facilities & what's offered there needs some clarity --both GM & Player alike. we'd like it to be as easy as a rand McNally or Michelin road guide for Starship crews and GM's alike.

We're not attempting to re-write canon UWP's, just make it easier to understand the arcana better.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Hemdian:
Just to undermine my preveous post a bit: while the main thrust of the article I was quoting sounds about right, I am concerned over class E and X starport classifications. I've been going over the Core Routes website today and it seems that class E is used (with Marc Miller's blessing) to mean "no starport" (so how can it have a TL minimum?). Meanwhile, class X means the Scouts are not saying because its a restricted world. (I'm thinking of Shionthy/Regina, which is a Red Zone yet has a thriving community of asteroid miners on Imperial contract. I bet they have access to class C facilities, possibly even class B.)

Sorry, random observations. Must dash, Ref'ing a game tonight.

Yes Hemdian, and In each Traveller edition (CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20) we have the unilateral statement of "Starports exist solely for the needs of Interstellar trade".

So
+ Functioning Starports are Classes A thru E-class.

With that universal statement, I interpret (and here any may argue against me) that even an E-class has the basic 'Imperial components'
++ A landing field/ pads
++ An Xtrality boundary of some sort demarcation of where even frontier I mperial trade happens/ law holds, and the rest of the world applies elsewhere.
++ Someplace where whomever is boarding or disembarking hangs out until the starship lands.
++ Someplace the Imperial tarde goods are schlepped out of the hold and moved off from/ and this frontier world's goods can then be schlepped aboard.

++And nothing else!

+ And an X-class is 'none surveyed'/ none present: [too primitive/ haven't got one], or haven't got the means to; to well, we had one once before,but now it's ruined; to a world of xenophobes here: [ "stay off the lawn and the world too"]. red or amber zone ratings notwithstanding.

Now in looking at some of the variables of facilities offered by each class, there are 2 striking service/ facilities that seems to draw the most questions:

Which Starports are orbital/ or have orbital components, and which are dirtside only?

Answers:
CT - A, B-class were orbital, C, D, E, X were all dirtside.
MT & TNE - A, B, C-class were/ could be orbitally placed, D, E, & X-class were all dirtside, although MT admitted an orbital D-class could occur, it was rare.
T4, GT, T20, TNE:1248 - Mirrored MT/ TNE but added D-class as a possible small orbital starport, not as a scantily mentioned possibility, and leaving only the E & X-class ports dirtside only.

Needless to say in our "majority-rules agreeing" abridgement, this latter is the way we'll lean in our draft.

Which Starport Types offer an Orbital Shuttle Service?

Answers:

CT - A, B-class had an orbital shuttle service, the others did not.

MT - A, B, C-class each had Orbital Shuttle Service, at TL8+ (due to Starport Base TL).

TNE - A, B, C-class had a shuttle service--if the world had a UWP listed TL7 or greater.

T20 - Doesn't specify.

Anyone have T4s & GT's take?

 

[Hemdian]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
With that universal statement, I interpret (and here any may argue against me) that even an E-class has the basic 'Imperial components'

I must admit that's the way I tended to play it in the past. I'm just not sure I'm right. (I'm not sure I'm wrong either.) I'll mull it over some more.

'Imperial components' is an interesting phrase. What about independent worlds beyond the Imperial border?

Regards PLST

 

[atpollard]

After re-reading the JTAS article on the Starport Authority by John Ford, I was very impressed by the diversity of the underlying structure of starports presented in his article. Mr. Ford proposed that Class A & B starports had orbital facilities with shuttles from the ground-port to the high-port. He further assumed that Class C & D starports had no high-ports but had shuttle service from the ground-port to orbiting ships. Class E & X ports had no high-port, no shuttle service and no SPA presence.

To create a system that blends the various flavors of Traveller into a common reference is a worthwhile project. However, I think that we should leave room in there somewhere for a ground-port that has no high-port but offers shuttle service to orbiting ships. It is my opinion that the Imperium would be slightly poorer for the complete demise of this concept as a possibility.

Liam Devlin posted a story a while back about an armored horseman who was “in charge” of the starport, and the starport was nothing more than a cleared field with stone markers to define it’s limits. It is also my opinion that the game would be poorer if this scenario were to be completely eliminated from the realm of possibility.

These two scenarios do not need to be directly linked to starport class like in Mr. Ford’s article. They could easily be the result of some combination of starport class and TL or Population. What I see as important, is that they need to be preserved as a potential experience to enrich the Traveller setting.

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:

...I interpret (and here any may argue against me) that even an E-class has the basic 'Imperial components'

++ A landing field/ pads

++ An Xtrality boundary of some sort demarcation of where even frontier Imperial trade happens/ law holds, and the rest of the world applies elsewhere.

++ Someplace where whomever is boarding or disembarking hangs out until the starship lands.

++ Someplace the Imperial trade goods are schlepped out of the hold and moved off from/ and this frontier world's goods can then be schlepped aboard.

++And nothing else!

If I may respectfully submit the following:

E Frontier Installation

Essentially a marked spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present. — LBB3, 2nd Ed. p.10

Been to my share of such starports in the Frontier Worlds over the years — out there even a Class C starport is a luxury! Lacking even the basic facilities of a Class D starport, Class E typically denotes a cleared area, demarcated in some way, usually with a beacon of some kind (from automated laser or radio [rarely] to incandescent or oil lamps, to firepits); landing pads (or pavement of any kind, for that matter) are rarities. Interstellar extrality agreements do of course apply, though the local citizenry (if any) are often unaware of them.

As no facilities exist, few people (if any) hang around for long, and these installations are largely deserted most of the time, (infrequent visits by maintenance or law enforcement personnel notwithstanding). Sometimes, one or more individuals charged with customs duties may be on site when a ship lands, though they don't typically hang around for long, either. Despite this total lack of amenities, Class E starports do tend to be relatively peaceful places.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by atpollard:
After re-reading the JTAS article on the Starport Authority by John Ford, I was very impressed by the diversity of the underlying structure of starports presented in his article. Mr. Ford proposed that Class A & B starports had orbital facilities with shuttles from the ground-port to the high-port. He further assumed that Class C & D starports had no high-ports but had shuttle service from the ground-port to orbiting ships. Class E & X ports had no high-port, no shuttle service and no SPA presence.

To create a system that blends the various flavors of Traveller into a common reference is a worthwhile project. However, I think that we should leave room in there somewhere for a ground-port that has no high-port but offers shuttle service to orbiting ships. It is my opinion that the Imperium would be slightly poorer for the complete demise of this concept as a possibility.

Liam Devlin posted a story a while back about an armored horseman who was “in charge” of the starport, and the starport was nothing more than a cleared field with stone markers to define it’s limits. It is also my opinion that the game would be poorer if this scenario were to be completely eliminated from the realm of possibility.

These two scenarios do not need to be directly linked to starport class like in Mr. Ford’s article. They could easily be the result of some combination of starport class and TL or Population. What I see as important, is that they need to be preserved as a potential experience to enrich the Traveller setting.

Agreed. TL definitely plays a part in the answer of a shuttle service at a port, as does it would seem going back into CT days, population (mr Ford's article).

One can argue that a D688543-7 world has a shuttle service, where as a D688745-3 world does not based solely on the TL.

Reading in what we plan as a using the UWP to get this conclusion before the Players take their ship there/ or decide to, or GM plans adventure there for them is our goal.

This still leaves room for the E89AAA9-E Hi Wa & the E754421-3 Lo Ni worlds to be unique as well.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Hemdian:
'Imperial components' is an interesting phrase. What about independent worlds beyond the Imperial border?

Regards PLST

Good question!!

Now Imperial Trade & trade goods we know in canon travel about 20-24 parsecs beyond the Imperium's borders.

The Solomani Confederation/ Autonomous Zone, (also known once as the birthplace of the 2nd Imperium) probably mirrors the Imperium's SPA System & Starport classification without much change.


So in a mostly humanocentric Universe, there will be commonality. There will prolley be no "Xtrality" markings/ fence, etc at all for instance. I have never seen anything on how say the Zhodani do their starports, the K'kree, the Vargr, Droyne or Hivers.

Anyone else?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Arthur hault-Denger:
...I interpret (and here any may argue against me) that even an E-class has the basic 'Imperial components'

++ A landing field/ pads

++ An Xtrality boundary of some sort demarcation of where even frontier Imperial trade happens/ law holds, and the rest of the world applies elsewhere.

++ Someplace where whomever is boarding or disembarking hangs out until the starship lands.

++ Someplace the Imperial trade goods are schlepped out of the hold and moved off from/ and this frontier world's goods can then be schlepped aboard.

++And nothing else!

If I may respectfully submit the following:

E Frontier Installation

Essentially a marked spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present. — LBB3, 2nd Ed. p.10

Been to my share of such starports in the Frontier Worlds over the years — out there even a Class C starport is a luxury! Lacking even the basic facilities of a Class D starport, Class E typically denotes a cleared area, demarcated in some way, usually with a beacon of some kind (from automated laser or radio [rarely] to incandescent or oil lamps, to firepits); landing pads (or pavement of any kind, for that matter) are rarities. Interstellar extrality agreements do of course apply, though the local citizenry (if any) are often unaware of them.

As no facilities exist, few people (if any) hang around for long, and these installations are largely deserted most of the time, (infrequent visits by maintenance or law enforcement personnel notwithstanding). Sometimes, one or more individuals charged with customs duties may be on site when a ship lands, though they don't typically hang around for long, either. Despite this total lack of amenities, Class E starports do tend to be relatively peaceful places.

[/QB]

Yes, An E-class lies deserted most of the time, agreed. However, when the ship expected DOES arrive, there would be designated a "here, ya'll wait here" spot for passengers, and freight, IMO.

A spot, or designated place for said activity to take place (when it does occur) does not = "a facility" in my way of thinking.


Thank You Mr Denger!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Orbital Shuttle Service:

Obviously this means everything from the canon 95(100)dton Shuttle to the 10dton Skiff/Gig as far as small craft for Passenger service. each of these vessels have been around since CT days.

For Orbital Freight Service, we have the canon examples of the 20dton Launch, 30dton Slowboat, 40dton Slow Pinnace, 50dton Modular Cutter, & 95dton Shuttle. Deckplans for these sinxce CT have shown with passenger/ and cargo configurations in all of them.

Okay so far?

Back to TL and population then!

Recall earlier we established that:
+++Refined LHyd occurs at TL5.
+++Unrefined LHyd at TL4.

With TL7 you can build aircraft/ orbital vehicle hulled vessels that can withstand the stresses of supersonic speeds TL4-6 aircraft cannot. So we establish orbital Shuttle service can be maintained/ sustained at this TL, thanks to technology and 3rd Imperial trade.

Population to support Shuttle Service/ SPA
Now in the "Evolution of Starports" thread, we established a base SPA population for the port at 1% of the total population. Our example world had 500K, or about 5K personnel (A-class); 4K (B-class), 3K (C-class), 2K (D-class).

How to break down those numbers (From the SPA JTAS article) by department:

+Administration/Management (Customs, ATC, Custodians, Personnel Mgmt., Inspections/Regulations, Fees)= 5% (250 for A-class/ 200 for B-class/ 150 for C-class/ 100 for D-class)

+Security (Armed First response teams)= 1% (50 for A-class/ 40 for B-class/ 30 for C-class/ 20 for D-class/ 10 or less for E-class)


+Ships Services (berthing/fueling/repairs/Building*)= 40% (2000 for A-class/ 1600 for B-class/ 1200 for C-class/ 800 for D-class)


+Passenger Services (Tickets, Embarkation, Luggage, Transportation, Shopping, Eating, Medical, Legal)= 10% (500 for A-class/ 400 for B-class/ 300 for C-class/ 200 for D-class)

+Freight Handling (Warehousing, Containers, Stevedores, Brokers)= 30% (1500 for A-class/ 1200 for B-class/ 900 for C-class/ 600 for D-class).

+Shuttle Service (Freight & Passengers)= 4% (200 for A-class/ 160 for B-class/ 120 for C-class/ 80 for D-class)

Now figuring in Space navies from TNE's PoT manpower pool rules of 1 small starship per 200 personnel, a spacecraft is smaller. Aboard Starships CT to T20, this included FLT crew, plus mechanics of 5 total. Adding in the rest of spare crews & mechanics for round the clock operations (another 15 personnel) comes to 20 per/ Smallcraft.

Thus we arrive at:
A-class with 200 personnel/20 = 10x Shuttle craft
B-class with 160 personnel/20 = 8x Shuttle craft
C-class with 120 personnel/20 = 6x Shuttle craft
D-class with 80 personnel/20 = 4x Shuttle craft

gotta run now, be back later!

 

[mbrinkhues]

Electronic Equipment and concepts for a port:

Omni-Directional Beacon This is a simple broadcast system that is used to find the port. It can be as primitive as a steady "beep" or as complex as a system that gives complex digital information on port, condition . It is not uncommon for the system to be radio activated by broadcasting a signal on a fixed frequency.

Availabel at early TL5+ as huge "Beep only" broadband systems, Common at TL6 with information systems making an apperance at high level ports. Automated "beep only" systems appear mid TL6 when the radio becomes more compact, Automated information beacons get common at TL7. Range is between 40 and 200km

A/B class ports have them at TL5
C/D class ports have them at TL6
E class ports have primitive beep automated stations at TL6, more complex automated stations at TL7


Radar Radar comes into use during TL5 and will likely appear at A/B ports around the same time they appeared on major airports (late TL5) slowly spreading to minor ports (C/D) as the technology get's easier to use(1) and more rugged(2) for field use. By mid TL6 all A-D ports will have at least the equivalent to an modern airport approach radar. By TL7 some A/B ports would get a radar that can track space objects similar to the systems in Safeguard(3). At TL8-9 integration into satellite networks will become common to direct the increased traffic

Automated landing systems Around since TL 5 in the Lorenz system that generates a glide beam by using two overlapping broadcast zones that result in a steady tone whenever the craft is on the glidepath. The system will be present on A/B ports around late TL5, C-D will have them at TL6 and small automated systems might appear on E-class ports at TL7.

Automated cargo handling Late TL7 to early TL8 makes it possibel to handel containerised cargo based on radio tags and automated fright cars. Depending on the local outlook on robots this may appear on A and B class ports


(1) The common "round display" (Plan position indicator) comes only with the second generation radars in the early 1940s and is not common until after the war
(2) Early radars needed either highly trained experts (Chain Home system) or where build on a early black box modular concept (Würzburg system)
(3) The Safeguard radars