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Starports

 
A hypothetical situation:

A generally worthless chunk of rock has a small native population (say 50 people). It also has a large Naval base where marines train for battledress and zero-G combat. The population of the base is perhaps 2000 permanent but swells to 500,000 during training exercises. Most of the local population is somehow employed in support of the base (local bar/food, supply runs, etc.).

What would the UPP population for the world be? If you include the military personel, you will inflate the passenger and cargo traffic. If you do not count the military population, then you will get one of those situations where people ask "How can 50 people support a Naval base?"

Just looking for your thoughts.
 
Actually I would include the 2000 permanently stationed soldiers since most military installations do not exist seperate from the rest of the environment. Not that I believe the quota makes sense, the Brothel next to Ahlen Barracks had 20 workers IIRC and most of the 2000+ Soldier in the barracks where conscripts that drove home almost daily. So I assume a permanet base of 2000 will have at least the same number in relatives of the soldiers stationed there and/or catering(2), washing services(1) and similar professions. Permanently stationed soldiers get leave and spare time after all.

The 500k transients simply do not count, they will likely get no leave during the training sessions and be supplied totally by the base or Meals Rejected by Everyone


(1) In Germany either done by mother or the supply guys
(2) We had an independent pub on base and a recreational home over the street. Same with the civilian hairdresser
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Actually I would include the 2000 permanently stationed soldiers [snip lots of good data]
Click to expand...
If I understand you correctly and we use Germany as “normal” for a Traveller Naval/Scout base, you feel that a base will support a local population/economy at least equal to the population of the base.

If we assume that a base will not normally be staffed at less than the Company level, then the smallest practical base would have at least a hundred “soldiers” and an equal number of adjacent civilians. Therefore, the smallest UWP population to support a base would be 2 (hundreds of people) and 3+ (thousands of people) would be more realistic.

Does anyone know how the listening outposts at the arctic circle were/are staffed? Is a UPP population 1* (50 people) with 25 soldiers and 25 civilians plausible, or is this just one of those “referee gets a chance to be creative to explain random numbers” scenarios?

Thank you for your input.

*[edit: fix number]
 
A listening outpost is not the same as a base IMHO. A base is something you are assigned to for a long period (Years) not a short deployment (Month at best)

An outpost is a lot smaller (i.e the various WWII weather stations) and works with a different idea than a permanent base. Outposts (say a refueling station) will most likely only have a crew and neither family nor supporting civilians.
 
The local civilian workers will come from the native population. In this case, there effectively *isn't* one, so those jobs (cleaner, bartender, whatever) either won't get done, or will be done by machines or people flown in from elsewhere (and so won't count towards the Pop).
 
Of course there's also the more military-cozy MegaCorps, some of which may hold exclusive contracts to fulfill support roles to combat units (much like Halliburton)... everything from meal and laundry service to transportation, logistical support and even mercenary work that has to look 'independent'... When rotated out to low pop worlds, one could consider the 'Corp-supplied support staff part of the '500k' rotated troops - they come with their own support and leave nary a scrap behind (except all that High TL trash that insurgents love to collect and rebuild).

Much better than letting those natives into the 'Green Zone'... they're a mite untrustworthy and prone to sabotage whenever there have been large 'incursions' into their territory.
 
Originally posted by atpollard: A hypothetical situation:

A generally worthless chunk of rock has a small native population (say 50 people). It also has a large Naval base where marines train for battledress and zero-G combat.

The population of the base is perhaps 2000 permanent but swells to 500,000 during training exercises. Most of the local population is somehow employed in support of the base (local bar/food, supply runs, etc.).

What would the UPP population for the world be?
If you include the military personel, you will inflate the passenger and cargo traffic.
Click to expand...
+The Military Students to the system's 0-Gee Combat school are transients and are not counted.

If you do not count the military population, then you will get one of those situations where people ask "How can 50 people support a Naval base?" Just looking for your thoughts. [/QB]
Click to expand...
+I presumed "worthless chunk of rock for the usual Y100000-0 rockball from your description.

+No Star Shipyards to speak of, or Spacecraft building? Okay...C-class port, minimum for such a base for starters.

+Small enough for micro gravity to Zero gravity work, which from traveller Zero-Gravity Combat needs space travel = TL9 minimum.

+Battledress troops are TL-13+ In T20. Military Bases (Navy & Marine) = Government 6. Law level not known 2d6-7 (3 being avg, 7-1)

+You have 2,050 people locally (locals + base personnel), that's Pop 3/ digit 2. Stationed there for 1-term at time they are semi-transient, but the school is permanent so their population (bases/ School) will remain constant. You may have quarters for 500K, but they aren't always there.

C100366-9* N, M Lo Na Ni Va 211 Im.

* Presumed the lowest tech level possible for 0-Gee School. Troops may have TL-13+ Battledress (TU TL varies) but are transients. Lowest Bidder wins even in the 57th century!

Quarters for 500K, needs (mass bunked troops, not High Passage or Mid passage) 8x per 4dtn "room", and the 1 steward serving 20 rule of thumb. or 25,000.

Now using 1x robot does the work of 10 human labor days, thats 2,500x janibots/ cleaners/ cooks, with 250x Sophonts to manage the non-sentient/ semi-autonomous,'workforce' multiplier of the base's robots.

That leaves you of your beginning 2,050, 1,800 to gainfully employ elsewhere at this port of call. ;) .

SPA: (Imperial Port, right with Security / customs, luggage, cargo handling 'bots/ Shuttles)250x sophonts +2,500 robots = 25,250 Man days of labor. Roughly 10ktons of Landing berths (dirtside), unlimited orbital parking.

TAS: (Class A thru C after all-Generals, their staff, Imperial officials, guests, and supply vessel crews passing through) 50x Local sophonts + 500 robots = 5,050 man labor days (Stewards rules for High Passage 1/ 8 & Mid passage 1/ 16) = High Passage rooms/ quarters for 4400, Mid passage rooms for 8800. Max capacity 10K mixed groups.

Navy Ship/ Smallcraft repairs: 300+ 3,000 mechanic-bots = 30,300 Man days labor/ 3(-1 over civilians)= 10.1ktons maximum of repair berths.(Since troops brough here by larger Military [Naval] Transports. Just about right for those 5-10kton troop ships!

Civilian Ship/ Smallcraft repairs: 100x sophonts + 1000x robots = 10,100 Man days of labor/ 4 = 2525 dtns Max berths space.

0-Gee Combat/ Naval Gunnery School Personnel- 1,050x sophonts Training personnel, or roughly two battalions with command group.
 
I'm going to be writing up Marnie's World (Deneb 0514) for JTAS at some point, which presents a similar (though not so extreme) situation with a water world:

AA9A324-B N Lo Ni Wa 510 Im

I was assuming all of the 5000 people were there to support the base and starport, and still wished there were more! Don't you love random generation? :rolleyes:

John
 
Originally posted by atpollard:


Does anyone know how the listening outposts at the arctic circle were/are staffed? Is a UPP population 2 (50 people) with 25 soldiers and 25 civilians plausible, or is this just one of those “referee gets a chance to be creative to explain random numbers” scenarios?

Thank you for your input.
Click to expand...
atpollard:

+The First correction: Population 25 is Pop 1, not pop 2 (the number of zeroes behind the UWP pop digit.).

+The U.S. Antarctic Weather Unit is made up of USAF, & US Army personnel. Exact numbers vary, but are less than 500 and just over 350 total personnel at any one time, Pop 2 (3-5x 100's). A Classic Outpost, and an D-class landing field (plowed field, beacons, Air Traffic control, Minor repairs, fuel is brought in and stored however.) All the countries down on Antarctica are held by unilateral treaty to 500 personnel or less there.

helpfully yours,
 
Originally posted by John G. Wood:
I'm going to be writing up Marnie's World (Deneb 0514) for JTAS at some point, which presents a similar (though not so extreme) situation with a water world:

AA9A324-B N Lo Ni Wa 510 Im

I was assuming all of the 5000 people were there to support the base and starport, and still wished there were more! Don't you love random generation? :rolleyes:

John
Click to expand...
JGW:

Your example Marnie isn't so hard! The govt. code 2 denotes the world has its own government (participatory democracy, so the Imperial Naval base is in "addition to" their A-class port (otherwise might have been Govt code 6).

The trick is figuring out how many Navy personnel are there. The planet's folk obviously supports the base. I'll give it a spin at the house, gotta run now.

Schuss!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
A listening outpost is not the same as a base IMHO. A base is something you are assigned to for a long period (Years) not a short deployment (Month at best)

An outpost is a lot smaller (i.e the various WWII weather stations) and works with a different idea than a permanent base. Outposts (say a refueling station) will most likely only have a crew and neither family nor supporting civilians.
Click to expand...
I am just trying to get a feel for what a naval/scout base on a world with a UPP population of 0 or 1 (less than 100 people) COULD be. Most Real-world examples do not make sense in space. How far can you listen/monitor? What is the space equivalent of a weather station?

I am also wondering if the "starport" could be tied to the base more than the civilian population on such low level worlds. Liam's example was very good, but there can only be so many automated, mega-corporation class A starports in the universe. I was searching for more options.

I like the refueling station (especially for a scout base).

I was also thinking about Fort Ticonderoga (I think) in the American revolution. The story goes something like this: the British shipped a lot of cannon to America for the French-Indian War. After the war, it was decided that it would be better to leave them in a fort in America (just in case) rather than shipping them back to England. As time passed, the fort became a semi-forgotten backwater manned by a de-motivated token force. At the start of the American Revolution, Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain Boys (a frontier militia) captured the fort with almost no resistance. Those old cannon formed the majority of the artillery available to the Continental Army in the American revolution. Could a handful of people in a naval base be "guarding" an old mothball fleet?
 
Or the base itself could be mothballed as the military need for having a large base in the area no longer pertains and staff have all been posted elsewhere apart from the caretakers. The base is still classed as an 'A' as it has all the required facilities. What it doesn't have is the personnel to operate those facilities.

This opens up possibilities for a 'monster in the house' type adventure (like Alien) with very few people running around a huge complex (good spooky atmosphere too).

Ravs
 
Base in Mothballs / Fleet in Mothballs should work.

Fleet in Mothballs

The Comm-Distances in system are rather short and a ship in mothballs will take month and massiv labour to get moving. They commonly have no fuel in the bunkers, no life-support systems online, engines encased in grease for rust-prevention, maybe even sealed and filled with inert gas and hatches welded shut. Put a number of perimeter sensors around the graveyard, wire the ships to report any change (i.e Pressure alert) and the whole thing can be run by a small caretaker crew.

The caretakers likely have armed cutters or gigs as their main crafts with a high-jump scout or two (or what was high-jump 2 TL ago) to call for help. If they are lucky they get a few SDB. I'd say a crew between 100(no SDB, ooold craft) and 500 (SDB, craft one TL under current).

They will have huge quarters and drydocks for the time the caretakers are supplemented by the re-activation crews. So most of the space station will be empty quarters, rec rooms, hangar bays with more preserved ships (Lower preservation state i.e only without fuel and food, hangar flooded with inert gas) and endless corridors. If you have seen the DS9 shows that deal with the abandoned sister station (Where they look for spares) this is some of the feeling


Base in Mothballs

It does not matter wether it is a planetary base on an otherwise uninhabited/uninhabitable planet or a space base

Mothballed bases can work with even less troops. The Hackenberg (Maginot Fortress) had a caretaker crew of 50 and those where underworked but the military assignes platoons at the minimum. So in Traveller you might be able to go lower. Anything under 10-20 will likely cause interpersonal problems and you may want to go single race and single sex, likely all-male(1). There is a story by IIRC Anderson about a remote Pluto base with a single inhabitant that is calculated to go bonkers. Less dangerous than small groups.

Again, such a large base with so little people will feel strange. Only partially lit corridors that twist and are occasionally blocked by large doors, darkened fighting positions that reflect light from the outside in strange ways, dripping condensation, some scurring rodents, long patrols alone. And if the thing is in space, no way to leave, no way to call for help. Some of these stations might even be crewed only for a few weeks each year (or every few years) to re-position them and check them up

Remote base

Not that different from the above, the base might be smaller. OTOH some paper-pusher might decide that using Design K-9 even if too large might be cheaper than ordering a new type constructed.


Some scenarios:

+ Marie Celeste: A ship jumps in system. It is empty but all traces show the crew was present when it entered jump. Some blood-stains can be found, some cargo-containers are damaged

+ Raider, Raider, Raider: Pirats plan to take over that mothballed refueling station in the middle of nowhere as a base. Sadly our heros have been given the task to perform the 5 year check of the base

+ Under Siege: An old abandoned space defence plattform (Or a remote meson base) is about to be de-commisioned. Some pirats have another idea, planning to steal parts of the base (or the base). Erika Eleniak optional but recommended.

+ Lager Warm: An introductionary scenario. Nothing happens. Anything that looks like a threat turns out to be harmless(2). Lul your gamers in.


(1) The (urban legend?) is that a navy tried an all female crew in a nuclear submarine. The test was abandoned after 90 days. Turns out females synchronise their menstrual period given some time without exterior influence. At some times of the month it was not sure wether an alert would result in an attack on the enemy or the home-base for disturbing them

(2) On one day in the original MobBase we heard mass rifle fire from the nearby forrest. Ended up dragging two MG42/59 (MG3) out and started digging in. When our S3 came by on his way to the central barracks he informed us "There is a large hunting party out in the forrest"
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John G. Wood:
AA9A324-B N Lo Ni Wa 510 Im

I was assuming all of the 5000 people were there to support the base and starport, and still wished there were more! Don't you love random generation? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The govt. code 2 denotes the world has its own government (participatory democracy, so the Imperial Naval base is in "addition to" their A-class port (otherwise might have been Govt code 6).

The trick is figuring out how many Navy personnel are there. The planet's folk obviously supports the base.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree, but also supporting the starport. From other stuff I've worked out about the region, I can say that there is a lot of jump-4 traffic, and that it's a largish base. However, there's a shortage of information about bases in general (slightly more for scout than naval), so I don't really have a clue what will be there. I was hoping Grand Fleet might help, but from a quick scan through there doesn't seem to be much more than I already knew.

John
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
A listening outpost is not the same as a base IMHO. A base is something you are assigned to for a long period (Years) not a short deployment (Month at best)

An outpost is a lot smaller (i.e the various WWII weather stations) and works with a different idea than a permanent base. Outposts (say a refueling station) will most likely only have a crew and neither family nor supporting civilians.
Click to expand...
I am just trying to get a feel for what a naval/scout base on a world with a UPP population of 0 or 1 (less than 100 people) COULD be. Most Real-world examples do not make sense in space. How far can you listen/monitor? What is the space equivalent of a weather station?

I am also wondering if the "starport" could be tied to the base more than the civilian population on such low level worlds. Liam's example was very good, but there can only be so many automated, mega-corporation class A starports in the universe. I was searching for more options.

I like the refueling station (especially for a scout base).

I was also thinking about Fort Ticonderoga (I think) in the American revolution. The story goes something like this: the British shipped a lot of cannon to America for the French-Indian War. After the war, it was decided that it would be better to leave them in a fort in America (just in case) rather than shipping them back to England. As time passed, the fort became a semi-forgotten backwater manned by a de-motivated token force. At the start of the American Revolution, Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain Boys (a frontier militia) captured the fort with almost no resistance. Those old cannon formed the majority of the artillery available to the Continental Army in the American revolution. Could a handful of people in a naval base be "guarding" an old mothball fleet? </font>[/QUOTE]well the 100 people i consider seperate then naval/scout/commerical personal...

the 100 people could be the beginnings of a mine
and important research lab(clandestine), one
of those "offlimit" safari worlds, or like you
mentioned an old mothballed military base or
a jump/refueling base or monitoring base...

some gave me a quote about light seconds as
a CT refernce for scanning range my highports
go up to 12 LS or so..after input from folks
here...


but the starport personael could be more then 100
poeple beyond the planets population...at least
thats how i did for my highports..economically
that may not make sense but militarily it could.
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
(1) The (urban legend?) is that a navy tried an all female crew in a nuclear submarine. The test was abandoned after 90 days. Turns out females synchronize their menstrual period given some time without exterior influence. At some times of the month it was not sure whether an alert would result in an attack on the enemy or the home-base for disturbing them.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what the Navy does or does not do, but women living together (like a sorority or college dorm) do tend to synchronize menstrual cycles.
 
Originally posted by John G. Wood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John G. Wood:
AA9A324-B N Lo Ni Wa 510 Im

I was assuming all of the 5000 people were there to support the base and starport, and still wished there were more! Don't you love random generation? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The govt. code 2 denotes the world has its own government (participatory democracy, so the Imperial Naval base is in "addition to" their A-class port (otherwise might have been Govt code 6).

The trick is figuring out how many Navy personnel are there. The planet's folk obviously supports the base.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree, but also supporting the starport. From other stuff I've worked out about the region, I can say that there is a lot of jump-4 traffic, and that it's a largish base. However, there's a shortage of information about bases in general (slightly more for scout than naval), so I don't really have a clue what will be there. I was hoping Grand Fleet might help, but from a quick scan through there doesn't seem to be much more than I already knew.

John </font>[/QUOTE]Well, JGW: Depends on the size of the Imperial Navy in your TU. Big Ship Universe, or Small Ship Universe?

Taking a cue from GDW's TNE-Path of Tears, An A-class Starport world merits a 10% of total the world's Military Manpower (1% of total UWP pop). 1x Small Combatant, like an SDB, per 500 personnel = The crews/ mechanics/technicians/ & other Support personnel; & 1x Major Combatant (Starship greater than 1Kton) per 1,500 personnel.

5000 folks x 1% = Total 50 Planetary Military personnel (SPace, Wet navy, Airdefense/ COACC, & Ground Forces); A-class port: 10% of 50 is 5 personnel. Looks to me like the Imperial navy is the major defense force for the system with this news.

So, if the pop is 5K, how many people can 5K support in Ships?

Without robtic aid (10 robots/ per 1 human) that's just 5,000 folks divided by 2 = 2500/ 1500 for large ships = 1 large warship + 1000 remainder going to SC's; 2500 for small ships (5x Small vessels) + 1K = 2 more. (1 large & 7x Small escorts)

But its a civilian run govt--so their port, Civilian Side, is primary employer of the rest of this small community.

Even if we ditched the Small Ship Universe formula of pop x 1% x 10% (A-class), and instead used the Big Ship Universe formula of the 10% factor for the port itself...
that's still only 500 x folks working for the Imperial Navy Side of the Port, and 4,500 others.

Lets presume 500x work for the IN A-class port, and 500x work the civilian A-class port. That leaves 4000 others for the Ni work the planet seems to be known for (fishing? Mining? Aquaculture?).

But in order to be A-class they have to produce a starship capable of at Least J-1, and displacing 100dtns?

Well 500x people BUILDING one (with no robots) would in the TCS 1 sophont /10dtn rule, mean 50dtns a quarter (3x months) or produce 2x 25 week 100dtn S-class ships, or X-boat hulls a year.

So who runs the SPA? (Safety, Landing controls, customs, passenger & cargo loading & regulations?)
Who runs the TAS? (High & Mid Passage rooms)
Who runs the Major & Minor repairs & refined starship fuel plant?

Those 500 people can't do all of it, can they? They have to have robotic help, or more folks, right?

Two secrets here:
+An A-class starport has to be a minimum tech level of 9+
+ In Imperial space, Most Starports are due to Interstellar trade, are +1 to +3 tech levels better than the planet they sit upon to the Imperial maximum of TL-15 (F) due to Imperial laws of design duplication: A J2/2G 100dt Type S built in the Marches will follow same basic features as one built down in the Old Expanses, and so on, right?They are named "Type" after all as well as a class name aren't they? ya see where this leads us? ;)

Now some folks, JGW, interpret the world's TL as "that's all of what they can fix, & Sell--period!" But they deny the very interstellar trade the 3rd Imperium brought about in so narrow a view.

The best defined version of this is "this Tech level is the TL the world's majority (population) sustain and enjoy."

So I could pull into a low pop A-class, TL9 port with my 200dt J1/1G TL15 Beowulf and get it fixed--same as if I pulled into my previous example of Ridge's low pop, A-class TL-F port!

Where the GM gets his evil digs in at the players, is here: TL-15 parts maybe had or on order here at the first one, they can be replicated on the spot at the latter--so I might have to pay the TL9 world's grease guys and gearheads a bit more (Shipping & Handling) and wait a bit.

Okay, world is TL-11, and lets say Starport community (PD-govt.) doesn't go the way of fully robotic labor..those are jobs the community can do, right?

IN Navy Starbase Support = 50 sophonts + 500 robots.
Man days labor 5050 (Supports 1x large ship (1500 MDL, and Seven smaller ones (500 MDL each)

Non-citizen IN base personnel at Base, 5K.

Civilian Port: (1300 folks out of 5000)
SPA x 100 Sophonts (with TAS facility capacity of 1600 sophonts/ 52 folks in 600dt liner = 31 x 600dt, or 18,600 dtn of landing berth space.

TAS facility x 100 Sophonts (Stewards rules 1/8 HP & 1/ 16 MP) = 800 High Passengers (Single)rooms/ 1600 Mid passengers.

Shipyard x 1000 Sophonts (1x 100dtn slip, TL-11, produces 2x 100 ships a year.)

Repair yard x 100 Sophonts / 3 per vessel Civ repair 35dt = 33 x 35dt = 1135dtns total repair berth space (divided any way you the GM wish say 1x 600dt, 2x 200dt, 1x 100dt, & 1x 35dt for small spacecraft).

Total +1350 involved with Starport, leaving 3650 (men, women, & children). Adding a dose of realism, say 33% too old or too young to work, thats +1650 more from workforce.

Leaves 650x lanthanum miners*, fisherman, or aquaculture workers for that Non-Industrial code to do.

* I hypothesize the key reason there are A-class worlds in some of these bizarre places is because the essential element for Jump drives and jump 'grids' (what have you) lanthanum is found on those worlds/ or within that system.

SSU conclusion:

Imperial Escort Squadron (stargrid number of world)/ Fleet #, composing of the flag Ship 1kton Fer-de-Lance class Destroyer escort 'ISS Mamba' J4/6G, the 600dtn Naval SDB/Salvage Jump tug (J4(J2)/1G) 'ISS Grappler', and 400dt Shukugan-class SDB's 101 & 102 (base and systenm security patrols) and the 400dtn J4/4G escorts 4x Type T-Patrol Cruisers ISS Valiant, ISS Valor, Valhalla, * ISS 'Vigilant' are supported locally here at Marnie (insert UWP), a small but influential base, and a prosperous Small shipyard, producing 2x S-class starships a year.

How's that non-robot take on the place?
 
On ship types:

IIRC some versions of Traveller (MT at least) had the IDP (Imperial Data Package). IDP where a set of blueprints to build a certain craft, published by some Imperial Ministry (Commerce or Traffic IMHO) at reduced costs. IDP's exist in various TL variants

Not all ships in the 3I are IDP designs but the classic ones (Type S, M, R, T, CE, A, A2) are.

Depending on how detailed the IDP is, they will either say "at a 6x6x3meter, 150MW fusion reactor here" or even include the plans to build the reactor. I'd go for the former, it makes for more fun.
 
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