Starship Combat: Missiles and Computers

[opensent]

Can someone explain Book 2 CT Starship combat involving missiles to me?

I assume these (along with sand?) are placed on the playing surface and tracked turn by turn until they hit?

One thing I can't find in the book is how fast do they go? I know the use the launching ship's vector, but do they use it's velocity as well? Does a standard missile have a 1 g maneuver drive? 6 G? What is it?

Sorry if these are in the book somewhere obvious, but I can’t find them and I’ve looked several times now.

THANKS!!

 

[boomslang]

Can someone explain Book 2 CT Starship combat involving missiles to me?

I assume these (along with sand?) are placed on the playing surface and tracked turn by turn until they hit?

One thing I can't find in the book is how fast do they go? I know the use the launching ship's vector, but do they use it's velocity as well? Does a standard missile have a 1 g maneuver drive? 6 G? What is it?

Well, it's not really clear any more.

First off, I figure sand clouds dissipate after one turn of usefulness, so they only move once, then they're removed from play.

As for missiles, they in effect become little ships, so they do their own vector movement (or range band movement if using range band combat), starting with a copy of the launching ship's vector at the moment of launch.

As for how fast they go, and for how long, it's pretty much Ref's Choice. Special Supplement 3: Missiles provided for up to 12G missiles which used chemical rockets for propulsion and flew for a turn or two's worth of vectoring until they exhausted their fuel and had to coast in a straight line from then on. If, on the other hand, you postulate gravitic-propelled missiles, you'll want to stick with 6Gs -- or else you'll need to start handwaving about why a missile can go 12Gs, but a spaceship using the same engineering principles can't. (Some Refs are quite content to do this, though. YMMVIYTU.) Gravitic missiles should be able to accelerate for more than a couple of turns -- most likely somewhere between a few hours and several weeks... take your pick.

As a final note, SS3:M also suggested that the "default" missile burned at 5Gs for one turn, but that's really neither here nor there: a missile from the High Guard rules, capable of hitting a target at 500000km (long) range in 1000 seconds, is clipping along at about 50Gs of acceleration, which is one heck of a vector.

FWIW, IMTU: 6Gs gravitic, IR homing, proximity fused, HE warhead, 12 hour (36 turn) max flight time... Cr5000 per each, off the shelf...

 

[aramis]

6G for 3turns, based upon Special Supplement 3.

Avector includes a direction and a velocity. they then maneuver independently from that point.

 

[opensent]

Great, this clears up a lot of things. Thanks!

 

[scout_harris]

Just out of interest, why are missiles limited to 6g?

 

[opensent]

Ok one more question great Missiles Gurus of the CT universe...

If I launch a continuous burn 6G6 missile during the ordinance launch phase at a target 4 range bands away (40,000km), does it hit the target in the same ordnance launch phase?

Since continues burn missiles can't maneuver, it seems like they either always hit (assuming they are in range), or always miss.

If the intruder launches a continuous burn missile during his ordnance phase and they do not strike during that same phase then by the rules, all continues burn missiles always automatically miss any target that is moving. They wouldn’t be able to compensate for the movement of the native during their native movement phase.

ARGH this is confusing.

 

[boomslang]

ARGH this is confusing.

Indeed it is.

Remember: the missile does not move for the rest of the turn in which it is launched; it only moves in the movement phase of the launching player's next turn(s).

This means, for the continuous burn non-steerable missile type (which are perhaps better described as "rockets", since they only go where they're pointed at launch), you need to anticipate where there target will move to in his next movement phase, and aim the shot so it meets him there (or at least passes within 2500km of his position).

Which is a lot of work; SS3:M has the advantage of providing more detail to missile combat, but at the price of increasing complexity significantly.

Theoretically, one could launch several missiles (from different launch racks, of course) at a target, yet give each of them a slightly different aiming point, hoping to bracket the target's maneuver envelope and score at least one or two hits no matter which way he dodges...

But I avoid SS3:M IMTU in general to speed play, and only use it for its Radiation Damage Table on the very rare occasion that nukes are involved. The whole Supplement is *optional*, after all...

 

[boomslang]

Just out of interest, why are missiles limited to 6g?

In SS3:M, they're not; you can build 'em up to 12G if you're willing to give up long flight times.

They're only limited to 6Gs if instead of chemical rocket propulsion, you assume gravitic propulsion, and want to avoid your players whining about why their spacecraft is limited to 6Gs but the enemy missiles aren't... if you can handwave the limitation away, your missiles can fly as fast as you want and your players will tolerate...

 

[dean]

This means, for the continuous burn non-steerable missile type (which are perhaps better described as "rockets", since they only go where they're pointed at launch), you need to anticipate where there target will move to in his next movement phase, and aim the shot so it meets him there (or at least passes within 2500km of his position).

Sounds more like a torpedo than a missile. And, unless it's a nuke, it'd be trivially easy to avoid being hit or in the path of this sort of device.

Which is a lot of work; SS3:M has the advantage of providing more detail to missile combat, but at the price of increasing complexity significantly.

Was that in the CD-ROM? I don't remember that one at all. OTOH, my campaigns tend toward character play and interpersonal combet, not ship-to-ship engagements.

Theoretically, one could launch several missiles (from different launch racks, of course) at a target, yet give each of them a slightly different aiming point, hoping to bracket the target's maneuver envelope and score at least one or two hits no matter which way he dodges...

So long as they had some sort of ability and maneuver, with guidance or homing ability, I'd say that's a fair assessment. If they're "torpedoes", then you'd have to launch an awful lot of them to achieve hits on a three-dimensional space.

Happy Travelling!

 

[Icosahedron]

I'm sure I've seen a simplified missiles houserule posted here somewhere. Of course, if you're a stickler for Canon you can't be helped, poor soul.

 

[far-trader]

My exceedingly simplified missiles in CT houserule is that they are not so much missiles as hypervelocity cannons. You "launch" and there's a big slug flying at the target and striking it (or missing, or being countered) in the next round. No messing with vectors and plotting, just aim and shoot.

But there may be something more "missile" like around somewhere yeah. Those in MTU are called torpedoes and they are bigger with more bang for the buck and typically only used by the military.

 

[opensent]

I'm sure I've seen a simplified missiles houserule posted here somewhere. Of course, if you're a stickler for Canon you can't be helped, poor soul.

haha, how can you be a sticker? CT breaks you of that pretty quick.. lol

Simplified missile rules would be very much appreciated!

 

[boomslang]

Was that in the CD-ROM? I don't remember that one at all.

SS3:M was published as a pull-out in a dead-tree issue of JTAS, so the place to look for it would be on the JTAS CD-ROM, I expect...

 

[Foxroe]

I have not received my CT CDROM yet so I can't confirm, but based on specific lists of the CD contents posted elsewhere, all three special supplements should be included on the Classic CD.

-Fox

 

[far-trader]

SS3:M was published as a pull-out in a dead-tree issue of JTAS, so the place to look for it would be on the JTAS CD-ROM, I expect...

It is on the CT-CD rom, along with SS1-Merchant Prince and SS2-Exotic Atmospheres presumably because they are rules supplements. I would expect them to also be on the JTAS-CD since they were originally published there.

 

[dean]

It is on the CT-CD rom, along with SS1-Merchant Prince and SS2-Exotic Atmospheres presumably because they are rules supplements. I would expect them to also be on the JTAS-CD since they were originally published there.

OK; I have the CD-ROM but got it to mostly ensure I'd have things like that if I needed them/wanted to check them out. I also have the "dead tree" reprints of the JTAS, so I should have them both ways

Happy Travelling!

 

[Foxroe]

Can someone explain Book 2 CT Starship combat involving missiles to me?

I assume these (along with sand?) are placed on the playing surface and tracked turn by turn until they hit?

Sand-casting is about as clear as mud too...

I always assumed that sand was sort of a defensive screen or chaff thrown off by the targeted ship, giving the defensive DM. However, upon closer examination of the rules, I find myself wondering.

The LBB2/TTB rules clearly say that during the ordnance launch phase, missiles and sand are launched provided that the Launch and Target programs are running, and the ordnance has the launching ship's vector. The rules also state missiles or sand that contact a target in the preceding movement phase will explode or take effect.

This implies the sand-caster is a weapon that delivers its effect to a target vice protecting the launching ship. This also implies that the sand must be cast as a preemptive strike, instead of as a reaction to incoming laser fire (which actually makes more sense, since lasers are moving at the speed of light).

So does this mean that sand canisters are guided? If not, then wouldn't they only be useful as a suppressive weapon when the launching ship's vector intersects the defending ship's vector?

And what exactly does "-3 per 25mm obscuring sand" mean, anyway? Does each canister produce a 25mm "cloud"? Does the -3DM accumulate with more sand canister hits? If so, then a triple sand caster turret is nothing to scoff at... it could potentially give the target a -9DM!

-Fox

 

[aramis]

Yes, each caster produces a 1" diameter template. CLouds last for some time. I use 3 turns. they drift on the vector of the ship on the turn of launch.

 

[Foxroe]

Yes, each caster produces a 1" diameter template. CLouds last for some time. I use 3 turns. they drift on the vector of the ship on the turn of launch.

But the sand needs to contact the target to produce the 25mm diameter cloud, right? So does the cloud follow the original vector of the launching ship, or does it follow the vector of the target after release (or is it a combined vector)?

Aramis’ description of the 1” cloud makes perfect sense, but if the canisters are unguided, how will the launcher be able to get the canisters to contact the target? Is there a “canon” explanation? (forgive the pun )

-Fox

 

[boomslang]

But the sand needs to contact the target to produce the 25mm diameter cloud, right? So does the cloud follow the original vector of the launching ship, or does it follow the vector of the target after release (or is it a combined vector)?

Aramis’ description of the 1” cloud makes perfect sense, but if the canisters are unguided, how will the launcher be able to get the canisters to contact the target? Is there a “canon” explanation?

As Aramis notes, sand clouds drift with the vector they have at launch, and do not accelerate; they generally just screen the launching vessel. It is possible for the launching ship to accelerate away from a sand cloud it cast last turn (opening new lines of fire/flight that bypass the cloud), and it is possible for incoming (and outgoing) missiles to move into/through contact with it (remember that sand has a slim chance of stopping a missile). Sand is not used as an offensive weapon, and at typical space combat ranges, never has the opportunity to "contact" the vessel it is targeted towards.

Due to the Target program being required, it is feasible that sand clouds do not envelop the launching vessel, and indeed must form to one side of it -- the side the "target" enemy vessel is shooting at...

Tip: when pursuing a target vessel that is relying upon sand for defense, choose an off-axis flightpath so that you can shoot around his sand rather than through it if he accelerates away from it...