Starship Economics, Book 2
- Thread starter Random Goblin
- Start date
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
No one has suggested that food, water, and air isn't necessary to survive for ten days in space. Some of us just find it extremely difficult to accept that it should cost Cr200 credits a day, seeing as a meal costs Cr5. Add Cr5 for the water and we're talking about Cr20 for the food and water. I don't really feel that Cr180 per day for air and sundries sound reasonable.
A secondary issue is that if it really costs that much, then there is a significant (i.e. big enough for players to bug the referee about) difference between spending 14 days in space or ten days in space the way a passenger ship does every jump. So what is it? Ist it Cr2,000 per 10 days or Cr2,000 per 14 days?
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]I thought about that. THB (T20) specifies per week. LBB2 specifies per 2 weeks.
Further when reading I noticed one other thing. Nothing in LBB2, LBB5, MT Referee's manual, THB or TGP specifies hydroponics for recirculation of air. Matter of fact it says that lifesupport includes Air and filters. SO part of that Cr2000 per two weeks includes tanks of compressed air. Which could get extremely pricy if you are dealing with planets without standard atmospheres, (Vacuum, Tainted, etc.) so in that case Cr2000 per head may be relatively cheap. Anyone know what charging a 30 minute SCUBA tank costs?
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually I believe that would fall under annual maintenance. Sorry, we already have that cost.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I could probably justify some of it entering into those calculations, though, based on how many people are aboard, etc. But, pooh!, you're right.
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
That life support cost also covers expendible spares IMTU. Things like grease, seals, nuts, bolts, screws, gaskets - the things that regularly wear out and need to be replaced.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I think that probably also falls under the heading of annual maintenance. If seals and gaskets need to be replaced biweekly, I don't want anything to do with being in space on that kind of ship.
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
I think that probably also falls under the heading of annual maintenance. If seals and gaskets need to be replaced biweekly, I don't want anything to do with being in space on that kind of ship.
I need to replace fluids Daily and seals monthly.
OK, it is time for a new car.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yep me too, as well as re-licensing, certifications, etc.
I think a part of the life support costs could be handwaved away as Imperial Taxes, something like Airport Taxes only the service provider pays them, and of course they are therefore hidden in the passage price.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I think cleaning, certifying and repressurizing tanks, replacing those that failed recertification, plus the cost of the air itself would eat up a big part of that KCr1 per person per week. Then there is food, water and filters to finish the cost off.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Bhoins,
You know there is going to be some of that stuff (constantly leaking valves, etc.) on any ship.
Eng 1: "Why they ever put this stupid valve in here, I'll never know. We have to replace the thing every jump, it seems, and they don't make a spanner small enough to actually turn 90 degrees in there..."
Eng 2: "Ah, just shut up and replace the thing, would ya!"
Owners of small airplanes put up with this quite often.
You know there is going to be some of that stuff (constantly leaking valves, etc.) on any ship.
Eng 1: "Why they ever put this stupid valve in here, I'll never know. We have to replace the thing every jump, it seems, and they don't make a spanner small enough to actually turn 90 degrees in there..."
Eng 2: "Ah, just shut up and replace the thing, would ya!"
Owners of small airplanes put up with this quite often.
But passengers only burden the life support system for 9 out of those 14 days. That's a difference of about 700 credit per passenger in expenses (And it could be the same difference for crew if they stay off the ship while in port). I don't mind telling my players to ignore savings (and expenditures) of a few dozen credits here and there, but we're talking about 7-9,000 credits per jump here.
Also, the cost of air would fluctuate wildly from world to world. Air on an airless world with a few hundred inhabitants might be pricey whereas air on an airless world with billions of inhabitants would be almost as cheap as air on a world with a dense, untainted atmosphere.
The description of Aramis in The Traveller Adventure includes an air tax paid by everyone who lives there. I'll check the cost when I get home, but I very much doubt that it is Cr180 per day.
As a general observation, any handwave that opens the door for PCs to bug the Referee about saving money by being smart (or just not hawk stupid) is IMO a bad handwave. And I for one would feel uncomfortable telling any players of mine that they couldn't stock up on cheap air before leaving Garden World but had to pay premium price on Pokey Airless Hellhole.
Come to think about it, if there really are people out there who're willing to pay Cr180 per day for fresh air, I could see my players try[*] to set up an Fresh Air business, undercut the opposition by selling at Cr175 and making a killing...
[*] I wouldn't let them, of course, but I'd have to fall back on the "You just can't" explanation and I really dislike having to fall back on the YDC 'explanation'.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It's 10Cr per day for the air tax.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
OK by day, using the high passage numbers in T20 or the standard book 2 numbers it works out at Cr143/day. If we go by T20 numbers, there is about a Cr36/day difference between high and mid passage. (Lets treat that as better cuisine and non-essential perks.) Prepackaged food for prep costs Cr20-Cr25 per day. That leaves us Cr87 per day for potable water, clean water for bathing and laundry, air, filters, cleaning the environmental systems, general cleaning, inspection fees, etc. If you realize that charging a 30 minute SCUBA tank on average costs between $3-$5. Lets call it $3 or Cr1. At that rate Air would run Cr48 per day. (Of course it would also take up lots of space, higher pressure should probably be more expensive.) But at Cr48 per day that leaves you with only Cr39 for everything else. Again your water storeage is likely to be pressurized at high levels so more expensive than originally considered.
Looking at the numbers that way, IMHO lifesupport costs are actually a little low. Perhaps there should be a variance because air would be more expensive in some places than others, and inspection fees will vary, but I don't want to do that much work. It makes a good average.
One other thought that 30 minutes of air is one person breathing their own air, not pressurizing the entire ship. Air for the ship is likely to actually cost almost twice as much. (And depressurizing and repressurizing a ship would get cost prohibitive in a hurry.)
Looking at the numbers that way, IMHO lifesupport costs are actually a little low. Perhaps there should be a variance because air would be more expensive in some places than others, and inspection fees will vary, but I don't want to do that much work. It makes a good average.
One other thought that 30 minutes of air is one person breathing their own air, not pressurizing the entire ship. Air for the ship is likely to actually cost almost twice as much. (And depressurizing and repressurizing a ship would get cost prohibitive in a hurry.)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And if someone seizes your assets, you do as your told.
Until they let go at least
I'd go with the "community service" (forced labour on the surface ) that Aramis suggests, until they can afford passage off world (you pay them "fairly" for the dangerous work they are doing), or they get a better job and start paying their taxes again.
Until they let go at least
I'd go with the "community service" (forced labour on the surface
) that Aramis suggests, until they can afford passage off world (you pay them "fairly" for the dangerous work they are doing), or they get a better job and start paying their taxes again.Not for passengers (as I took pains to point out). A passenger spends an average of 9 days aboard the ship from the time he embarks to the time he debarks. The crew could stay on board for the entire 14 days, but if it costs them about Cr100/day or so to do so, I'd expect them to stay in a spacer hostel instead.
As for calculating the cost of air according to the cost of recharging a SCUBA tank, I don't accept it. It would be like calculating your gas bill based on the cost of refilling you lighter. Economics of scale would make buying a 10 man-days of air considerably cheaper than buying 1/48th of a man-day 480 times.
Hans
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Not for passengers (as I took pains to point out). A passenger spends an average of 9 days aboard the ship from the time he embarks to the time he debarks. The crew could stay on board for the entire 14 days, but if it costs them about Cr100/day or so to do so, I'd expect them to stay in a spacer hostel instead.
As for calculating the cost of air according to the cost of recharging a SCUBA tank, I don't accept it. It would be like calculating your gas bill based on the cost of refilling you lighter. Economics of scale would make buying a 10 man-days of air considerably cheaper than buying 1/48th of a man-day 480 times.
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]Well as far as per day cost, I went with the T20 numbers which defines it as KCr1 per week instead of KCr2 per 2 weeks. (And mid-passage LS as Cr750/week.)
As for charging for air similar to charging for a SCUBA tank, granted you should get some economy of scale, however since we aren't just supplying each individual with an SCUBA tank we are pressurizing an entire ship you will also get alot of waste. Further the air carried aboard for each person is included in the 4Tons per stateroom, that implies tanks under extreme high pressure to get enough air especially for an entire 2 weeks. Even more considering each stateroom is capable of double occupancy and each 4 ton stateroom also includes the tonnage for passages and common areas. 2.27 cubic meters of tank, pressurized to 18,615kPa, (80 cubic feet at about 2700psi, typical SCUBA tank.) is about 30 minutes of air for one person. At that pressure it would take 8 Tons (displacement) for air per person per day. Lets just make it O2 tanks, as I recall about 75% of the atmosphere is nitrogen and most of that is not changed by a person breathing. Lets also assume the filters mentioned, as needing replacement remove the CO2 and other toxins from the air and leave the rest of the air alone so all we would need is to replace the O2. In that case at that pressure, you would need 2 Tons (displacement) of O2 per day. Now a small craft couch has enough lifesupport for a day and displaces .5 tons. (More than a day you are supposed to install a smallcraft cabin.) If we dedicate .4 tons of that to O2, that would mean that we would need to pressurize our O2 to 93075kPa or 13500PSI. That still means 2.8 tons (displacement) per week of O2 or 5.6tons per 2 weeks. (or double occupancy per week.) To fit enough O2 to breath into a stateroom for double occupancy for two weeks (getting the displacement down to .35 tons), you would need to pressurize your tanks to 1489200kPa or 216000psi. (Approximately 14,700 atmospheres.) I think charging Cr48 per day is definitely reasonable for that, even in bulk. Especially when you consider the alternative. I would hate to think about what happens with a tank rupture though.
Of course while on the surface of a planet with a breathable atmosphere you could avoid using your O2 by the simple expedient of leaving the doors open and mounting a few fans to circulate the air.
Similar threads
