Supporting Pacification Campaigns

[aramis]

Joe Public generally takes the path of least resistance. If you can "be the solution" and demonstrate that the Patriots are the danger to law and order, much of the population will fall behind the occupiers glad their families are safe and life can go on as normal.

Wait in your safe zone for the population to come to you however and chances are when they come they will be fired up and armed by those same Patriots.

Thing is, if there is a strong popular religious presence, that approach will fail, unless you coopt the religion.

Due to board rules, I can't cite the various more recent European and middleeastern examples most obvious, but I will point to Finland and Poland in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and Usbekistan, Kazakistan, etc, under the Tsars. In all these cases, attempts to take control were fought by religious zealots, and when the conquerer government tried to suppress the religions which opposed them on religious grounds, it lead to bloody rebellions. Alexi finally allowed local religious praxis, and things settled down.

If the locals have a faith based reason for their government, no foreign one will do. That is when you get the most violent opposition. (Think Jews vs Babylonians, for example.)

 

[Gray Lensman]

Or the whole thing here:

http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/22-MissionofHonorCD/MissionofHonorCD/In Fury Born/index.htm

Quite legitamatly.

Best regards,

Ewan

Dang, beat to the punch line again

 

[Matt123]

The Imperium doesn't normally care who provides government services, and no one can replace them in providing security from offworld threats.

Absolutely correct, provided they acknowledge the 3I's place and pay the appropriate taxes. Oh and so long as the 3I isn't being percieved as THE offworld threat...

It doesn't matter who controls the planet so much as who controls the most important parts of it. The Imperium can afford to seal a planet from the outside world and has the technology to control the datanet. The rest is simply good training. When the Imperium controls all the information on the planet, there is no longer a meaningful insurgency.

No it means the Patriots rely on personal couriers and the planet relys on snail mail. Meantime "free" media spouts up all over the planet spreading counter-propaganda. Without people on the ground in sufficient numbers, there is no counter.

Successful insurgency in modern times has depended more on lobbying and information warfare then on arms.

Again, no. Successful insurgents become the government where they are now the legitimate authority. This requires arms, people and a message that resonates with the population. Think Hamas. It doesn't matter no one outside likes them, once they replace the security forces, gain popular support and get in power, they are the government.

In the stand off scenario there is no challange to who supplies security. Any stand-off attacks/raids are then portrayed by the security forces as attacks against the population or assasination attempts on popular leaders by a callous off world power.

In the Traveller universe, no one will know what is happening on a far off planet and no one will care.

You assume the Patriots care what the rest of the evil Empire thinks!

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Dang, beat to the punch line again

It's not a race ...

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Icosahedron]

And this is the heart of the thread. Assuming troops can be drafted from nearby systems how do you get those troops there, whats the planning time frame, how long before the troops ships get on station, how how many and how long do you have them. And finally once the troops are there what efforts are required to keep them in supply.

I use Pocket Empires for issues of interstellar strategy. It uses year-turns, so nothing gets done in less than a year, and it would take quite a number of turns to set up and resource an invasion and pacification campaign. The rules cover costs of raising a force, costs of maintaining it (greatly increased if it travels far from its operational base) and the difficulty of taking on too many such operations simultaneously.

This has affected my Imperial Strategy in no small way. The cost of subduing a world by force under PE rules is astronomical, and political or blockade methods are vastly preferable.

And (cue :devil since in PE the cost and difficulty of subduing a world is directly proportional to the world's population digit, then if the world's taxes are less important than its strategic location, and war is inevitable, there are very strong temptations to reduce that population by 'any means necessary' before committing your troops there...

Send a strike force in to hold that precious shipbuilding Class A starport, and then nuke/meson the rest of the planet down from Pop 9 to Pop 5 before you send in 'twice the pop digit' of troop points to hold the planet.

To get more specific, what are the ships, who controls them, what do they do when not moving troops, where are they stationed.

I'd say the military would almost certainly commandeer civilian passenger liners for the job and escort them in. <cough Falklands cough> Nothing else makes economic sense, unless the Imperium is in a state of near constant war in a particular region. Even holding a reserve of troop carriers and transporting them from one war zone to another will probably be far more expensive than sequestering local liners, and building/maintaining local troop carriers everywhere for infrequent use would be the most costly option of all.

The supplies question, assuming predominantly Light Infantry depends on weapons, supply of high tech off world kit, spare parts, boots, mail & coffee. Much could be sourced locally, assuming a stable enough environment. However a supply chain ensuring 1,000,000 troops spread across a planet, get three meals a day is not insignificant.

I'd picture an orbital supply station or two (after ensuring complete air superiority). PE rules allow you to use half the planet's resources while you build your troops up, but you'd want an off-world back up for your supply chain.

IMTU the 3I has documented and refined its military operations over 1100 years against every type of opponent. The 3I military machine is, whilst not un-beatable, certainly a well lead & thourough juggernaught.

Likewise IMTU, but the costs... :nonono:

Damn them slippery sedition spouting Patriots, hiding from my Marines and cannon... Never mind, until they see the error of their ways, WE'll SIT OFF SHORE & DEPRIVE THEM OF TEA!

Yes, there were a few blunders in that affair.

 

[BraselC5048]

I've been running/playing a campaign set during a war that involves a lot of military transport. I'm also using a sort of small ship universe. I figure that transporting a complete division requires about 16,000 dtons of cargo space. Supplies for 12 divisions engaged in combat for a week takes up about 4000 dtons. For transporting troops, I figure half a ton of cargo per solder, with 1/4 ton used for life support, and 1/4 ton of actual space for the solder (awake? yes. Cramped? Like sardines!). For ships, I just use ordinary freighters.
One other thing to point out; book 2 mentions that subsidized merchants are subject to activation as reserves in time of war. Call them into service, and instant military transports.

 

[Matt123]

I figure that transporting a complete division requires about 16,000 dtons of cargo space. Supplies for 12 divisions engaged in combat for a week takes up about 4000 dtons. For transporting troops, I figure half a ton of cargo per solder, with 1/4 ton used for life support, and 1/4 ton of actual space for the solder (awake? yes. Cramped? Like sardines!).

This is the sort of stuff I'm looking for, can you elaborate on how you came up with those numbers including any assumptions on troop TL and weaponry (eg: maybe using las-rifles instead of guass rifles to save on ammo logistics). If you "just made them up" thats ok.

For ships, I just use ordinary freighters.
One other thing to point out; book 2 mentions that subsidized merchants are subject to activation as reserves in time of war. Call them into service, and instant military transports.

Yes, I should revisit those designs & figure out how many troops they can shift.

 

[Matt123]

If the locals have a faith based reason for their government, no foreign one will do. That is when you get the most violent opposition. (Think Jews vs Babylonians, for example.)

I've spent a day or two pondering on this. If you compare faith based reasons for resisting occupation with ideological & cultural ones you get pretty similar extremes. Examples can be quoted of political differances, cultural differances and differances over who controls the resources all leading to bloody rebellion.

The 3I gets around most of the religious, political & cultural objections by allowing self rule, provided taxes are paid, etc.

The military end game would likely be to encourage the set up of a government that appeals/fits the population. In part that would be why there are extremes of governmental systems running imperial worlds. If the current Religious regeme forces us to invade, replace them with the next generation of the same Religious Regeme and help them achieve a smooth transition.

 

[Icosahedron]

For transporting troops, I figure half a ton of cargo per solder, with 1/4 ton used for life support, and 1/4 ton of actual space for the solder (awake? yes. Cramped? Like sardines!).

Are you suggesting 1/4 dT total, or just for their equipment?

It seems a little too cramped for total IMO. That would place 8 troopers in a typical starship cabin with none of the usual allowance for 'communal space'. That might be ok for eating and sleeping over a few days, but I imagine they would get stir-crazy after only a single Jump, and if the journey takes several Jumps...

Where do they exercise, train or take time out?

Crew are occupied with shipboard tasks during transit, but what do the troopers do in their sardine cans to prevent the devil making work for their idle hands?

 

[Icosahedron]

If the current Religious regeme forces us to invade, replace them with the next generation of the same Religious Regeme and help them achieve a smooth transition.

Which hopefully won't require much occupation, just surgical strikes. Once you've taken out the old leadership, the population will make their own transition.

 

[Matt123]

I'd say the military would almost certainly commandeer civilian passenger liners for the job and escort them in. <cough Falklands cough> Nothing else makes economic sense, unless the Imperium is in a state of near constant war in a particular region. Even holding a reserve of troop carriers and transporting them from one war zone to another will probably be far more expensive than sequestering local liners, and building/maintaining local troop carriers everywhere for infrequent use would be the most costly option of all.

The unspoken cost to sequesting local liners/freighters, is the damage done to the local stellar economy whilst they are not "working". Thats on top of the "retail" cost of transporting the troops - the freighters still have mortgages, wages & profits to pay.

A J3 600tn Subsidised Liner being used as a Troop transport could fit (IMHO, altho lower numbers could easily be argued) 4 troops per stateroom (x30 = 120 Troops) and another 129 Troops on cots in the cargo hold at 1 per ton. Total say 250 Troops (I like round numbers...). To shift 1,000,000 troops over two years from two jumps away will take 1,000,000 / 250 troops capacity / 24 round trips = 167 Subsidised Liners needed.

A J1 400tn Subsidised Merchant moves 250 troops as well but at such a low jump speed, the two jump assumption above should probably be a four jump assumption. Needing 334 400tn Subsidised Merchant.

A J1 200tn Free Trader shifts 125 troops, needing 668 of them.

To get 1,000,000 Troops shifted over 2 years from 2 jumps away, will take say 56 Subsidised Liners, 112 Subsidised Merchants and 223 Free Traders. Thats 391 Merchant ships not moving the economic life blood of the region for 2 years... For each 1,000,000 troops shifted...

That vs 4 25ktn troop transports shifting 12,000 troops each trip.

I'd picture an orbital supply station or two (after ensuring complete air superiority). PE rules allow you to use half the planet's resources while you build your troops up, but you'd want an off-world back up for your supply chain.

Fortunately you wouldn't need complete air superiority, just local superiority and that could be supplied by 400tn fleet escorts or if needed fighters or destroyers.

Doing the supply runs to the troops tho' no doubt would get exciting at times.

 

[Matt123]

Which hopefully won't require much occupation, just surgical strikes. Once you've taken out the old leadership, the population will make their own transition.

Provided you don't mind taking your chances that the new leader rallies support by publicly criticising your assasination tactics whilst simultaniously hiding from your orbiting surgical strikes.

 

[aramis]

I've spent a day or two pondering on this. If you compare faith based reasons for resisting occupation with ideological & cultural ones you get pretty similar extremes. Examples can be quoted of political differances, cultural differances and differances over who controls the resources all leading to bloody rebellion.

Religions, historically, have much deeper traction than do other ideological systems. Further, Cultural resistance, when not combined with religious, winds up with hybrids not revolutions. (Hybrids like Swiss, Alsatian, and Lowland Scots...)

This seems especially true amongst monotheistic faiths, where belief comes with the "assured" knowledge that all others are wrong in some way. Dualistic systems with one "good god" and one "bad god" are almost identical to monotheism, as in most cases, only the "good god" is worshiped.

These monotheistic and dualistic systems are well more likely to produce zealotry, simply due to the fact that their insistence on only one good god existing. Because the faithful are taught this, anyone not worshiping the same god is automatically an enemy, to be converted, excluded, or killed.

Prior to the 20th century, the various monotheistic faiths have spread their faith, and spread hybrid cultures... and in several cases, spawned hybrid languages... but the monotheistic religious praxis remains for centuries.

Heck, a certain 5+ millennium old dualistic religion has held on despite persecution from 2 major monotheistic faiths, plus 4 different polytheistic empires, and occupation of their primary areas repeatedly, and still acts counterculturally towards the parent governments and their support for a particular monotheistic faith.

Monotheism and Dualism produce zealotry. And zealotry produces multigenerational resistance. Not always violence, but always resistance to anything which runs counter to the faith's tenets...

 

[Matt123]

lol. I need to spend another couple of days digesting that post too!

So given a high pop, highly religious system, how would you propose the 3I assimulate them into the Empire? Assuming diplomacy had failed and you were in charge of the coercion efforts.

 

[aramis]

lol. I need to spend another couple of days digesting that post too!

So given a high pop, highly religious system, how would you propose the 3I assimulate them into the Empire? Assuming diplomacy had failed and you were in charge of the coercion efforts.

Red zone it and blast anything more than 3000m AGL. Some places you don't assimilate; you quarantine.

 

[rancke]

So given a high pop, highly religious system, how would you propose the 3I assimulate them into the Empire? Assuming diplomacy had failed and you were in charge of the coercion efforts.

Without considering the ethics of the situation? Inform the world that it is now part of the Imperium and provide the government with a list of rules and regulations that they're expected to follow ("#33: No killing heretics."). When it breaks the rules, remove it by whatever means necessary. Invade if you have to, but surgical strikes or assassinations are usually cheaper. In any case, don't occupy. Leave again and let another government form. Repeat until you get a government with both the will and the ability to enforce the rules.

Wil's suggestion about interdicting is good too. And canonical. IIRC there's at least one world that has been interdicted for rampant xenophobia (or was it just red-zoned for it? I can't remember). You could combine the methods, interdicting the world until you get the desired government.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Without considering the ethics of the situation? Inform the world that it is now part of the Imperium and provide the government with a list of rules and regulations that they're expected to follow ("#33: No killing heretics."). When it breaks the rules, remove it by whatever means necessary. Invade if you have to, but surgical strikes or assassinations are usually cheaper. In any case, don't occupy. Leave again and let another government form. Repeat until you get a government with both the will and the ability to enforce the rules.

Wil's suggestion about interdicting is good too. And canonical. IIRC there's at least one world that has been interdicted for rampant xenophobia (or was it just red-zoned for it? I can't remember). You could combine the methods, interdicting the world until you get the desired government.


Hans

Red Zone and Interdict go hand in hand. Red Zones are issued by TAS when travel to the world or system is prohibited by either the world or the Imperium.

 

[Matt123]

Red zone it and blast anything more than 3000m AGL. Some places you don't assimilate; you quarantine.

Religions have the benefit of being predictable, particularly large ones and especially ones successfully running high pop worlds. Where you have predictability there lies the potential to manage it.

Whilst I don't disagree with the "its too hard, lock it up & move on" approach, I'm pretty sure that after the Scout Service has done its studies it will have found hot button issues that will facilitate or hinder progress toward 3I assimulation.

Equally important will be the breakdown of the hierarchy structure, the dogmatism of various leaders, whether thier religious "code" has grown or developed over time and whether the population can percieve a higher authority that is not part of thier faith. I'm sure I'm only skimming the surface.

My take comes back to the 3I's 1100 years of experience dealing with and documenting such interesting challanges. Still I have no doubt that there will be systems where walking away or doing nothing is the best solution. They should be quite rare tho' and as the easier systems "see the light", more resources can be put to the troubled systems.

 

[rancke]

Red Zone and Interdict go hand in hand. Red Zones are issued by TAS when travel to the world or system is prohibited by either the world or the Imperium.

The link between red zones and interdicts is one way only. The TAS imposes a red zone on any world that the Imperium interdicts. But it also imposes red zones for other reasons, namely ubiquitous risks that are greater than those that causes amber ratings. A world war might get a red rating whereas low-key insurrection might only get an amber one.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The link between red zones and interdicts is one way only. The TAS imposes a red zone on any world that the Imperium interdicts. But it also imposes red zones for other reasons, namely ubiquitous risks that are greater than those that causes amber ratings. A world war might get a red rating whereas low-key insurrection might only get an amber one.


Hans

Interdiction is about the only long-term stable reason. The other examples in Sup 8 are all short term.