System Sustainability

[mike wightman]

If the rock has the correct elements needed for life in their minerals than you just use solar power or nuclear fission power plants (TL7) to separate the elements. These machines are on the surface.
You can tunnel into the rock as you do this to make chambers (TL7)

Vertical farms can be built in the chambers for food and to supplement oxygen production (TL7)

Set the rock spinning and you get simulated gravity.

Nothing in that list is beyond current tech, only having the money and the will to do it.

TL8 brings fusion power and air/rafts, which makes getting machinery into space trivial.

 

[atpollard]

I think with a sufficiently advanced knowledge base, it could be done at TL 4. It is hard to imagine an airless colony built on WOOD and WIND POWER [TL 3], but with IRON and GLASS you have the "Crystal Palace" and "Eiffel Tower" as possible as well as early SUBMARINE and DIVING technology in operation. A solar furnace to generate steam will provide heat, power and refurbish first generation CO2 scrubbers. Greenhouses and aquaculture (plants/fish raised together) provide oxygen and food. A TL 4 Lunar Colony (without space transportation) seems achievable.

TL 4 does have Black Powder rockets and "teakettle" propulsion ... so a liftoff from Mars might be possible or maneuver between asteroids. [Just Earth to LEO is impossible until the V2 at TL 5].

Interestingly, common steel cable (like any crane uses) is adequate to lift an object from the surface of the Moon to Lunar Orbit ... so a TL 4 Lunar Beanstalk is possible using the same cranes that built the Panama Canal.

 

[Spinward Flow]

It is hard to imagine an airless colony built on WOOD and WIND POWER [TL 3]

An airless world ... has ... wind ...?

Um ... I don't know how to tell you this, but ...

but with IRON and GLASS you have the "Crystal Palace" and "Eiffel Tower" as possible as well as early SUBMARINE and DIVING technology in operation.

Good luck with keeping LIFE SUPPORT going at TL=3 when you can't "close the loop" ...

So solar furnace to generate steam will provide heat, power and refurbish first generation CO2 scrubbers.

The ... inefficiencies ... involved would be ... is RUINOUS too strong of a word?

Greenhouses and aquaculture (plants/fish raised together) provide oxygen and food.

In theory.
Note that we haven't yet perfected the technology for that @ TL=7-8 yet ... let alone TL=3-4.
There's a reason why regenerative biome life support is TL=9+.

A TL 4 Lunar Colony (without space transportation) seems achievable.

Sure.
If you don't mind a one way trip and a slow (or quick) death ...

TL 4 does have Black Powder rockets and "teakettle" propulsion ... so a liftoff from Mars might be possible or maneuver between asteroids. [Just Earth to LEO is impossible until the V2 at TL 5].

The Rocket Equation says ...

 

[McPerth]

I was working on MTU and wanted to invent a TL level at which a planet could be 100% sustainable, regardless of planet type.

...

Is anyone aware of a reference in one of the many versions of Traveller where this is spelled out?

This was discussed in MT:HT (right now out of print, I'm afraid), where there were several factors taht could make a colony failing or doomed...

Being on the destruction after the Rebellion, many a colony cannot sustain itself there. It sets several thresholds, as TL4, when electricity allows you to produce oxygen from water and metallurgics are enough developed...

 

[atpollard]

The Rocket Equation says ...

I do not need LUCK, I already ran the calculations with the Rocket equations and some Rubber-Hydrocarbon SRB hollow metal tubes.
What is the Delta-V to launch from an asteroid in a Transfer Orbit to intercept another asteroid? How much LUCK does that take to achieve the needed Delta-V?

That is TL 4 "Congreve Rocket" technology without Earth's gravity well.

 

[atpollard]

It is hard to imagine an airless colony built on WOOD and WIND POWER [TL 3]

An airless world ... has ... wind ...?

Um ... I don't know how to tell you this, but ...

No, I said TL 3 has WIND POWER which is why it CANNOT be done at TL 3.
TL 4 has Steam and Electricity ... so it CAN be done.

Only correct me when I am wrong! [THAT happens often enough ]

 

[atpollard]

Sure.
If you don't mind a one way trip and a slow (or quick) death ...

You have assumed a COLONY as a goal rather than a RESULT. What if our sun became more energetic and began to strip away the Earth's atmosphere (or the core cooled and the magnetosphere stopped protecting it). So 1 billion people in 1800 have a choice to adapt or wait to die. Could they adapt to an Earth with an atmosphere like Mars in 100 years? Could they survive in 1900 or would mankind all be extinct?

 

[Spinward Flow]

I do not need LUCK, I already ran the calculations with the Rocket equations and some Rubber-Hydrocarbon SRB hollow metal tubes.
What is the Delta-V to launch from an asteroid in a Transfer Orbit to intercept another asteroid? How much LUCK does that take to achieve the needed Delta-V?

That is TL 4 "Congreve Rocket" technology without Earth's gravity well.

You may have the delta-v needed for the application.
Control though ... "Congreve Rockets" were hardly known for their accuracy ... and in space travel, a "lack of accuracy" in your flight trajectory can be MIGHTY FATAL.

Guidance and control are also necessary, not to mention highly accurate navigation and precision.
If you are lacking in these essential qualities, you're going to need more than LUCK ... you're going to need more than your fair share of prayers.

TL 4 has Steam and Electricity ... so it CAN be done.

Airless worlds tend to be lacking in surface water resources though ...
Airless worlds also tend to be lacking in trees (necessary for the geologic process that produces coal, which you would need in order to power your steam engines).

I'm seeing a LOT of problems that cannot be overcome at TL=3-4.

You have assumed a COLONY as a goal rather than a RESULT.

I thought you were setting up an "offworld prison" where the whole point and purpose of being sent there is ... a life sentence (without a chance for parole).

What if our sun became more energetic and began to strip away the Earth's atmosphere (or the core cooled and the magnetosphere stopped protecting it).

Then the planet survives but the biosphere doesn't.
The surface becomes ... uninhabitable.
Next question.

So 1 billion people in 1800 have a choice to adapt or wait to die.

Pretty much.

Could they adapt to an Earth with an atmosphere like Mars in 100 years?

A few might.
Most won't.
Population code: 9 goes to 1 or 0. It won't be pretty or pleasant.

Additionally, any population that "survives" the environmental transition would be highly unlikely to be able to perpetuate itself and "reclaim the planet" after such a calamity. So even if the environmental changes don't get you, the internecine warfare that results from greedy people fighting over a continuously shrinking "pie" of resources probably will. Even if a faction "wins" against their rivals, under such conditions it is highly likely that such a victory will be both pyrrhic and short lived (see: "nasty, brutish and short" if references are required).

Could they survive in 1900 or would mankind all be extinct?

Under the scenario you describe, the entire biosphere of the planet would almost certainly collapse. That usually doesn't "end well" for anyone sitting on top of the food chain.

So my guess would be EXTINCTION EVENT.

 

[bookwyrm]

@Timerover51 Thanks for the history lesson, it helped a lot.

@Spinward Flow Ahh, sorry. I phrased that wrong. I meant that it isn't in the rules that a low TL Ag planet would not be considered Ag. I do know they can be rolled (I've done it myself) and I have seen them on Travellermap.

...

So I just did some search-fu on this subject and found out that agriculture started in the last few thousand years of the Stone Age. I guess a big enough TL 0 population might be able to export enough food to support a class D or C star port staffed by off worlders.

Traveller is still teaching this old bookwyrmn new tricks.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So I just did some search-fu on this subject and found out that agriculture started in the last few thousand years of the Stone Age. I guess a big enough TL 0 population might be able to export enough food to support a class D or C star port staffed by off worlders.

Traveller is still teaching this old bookwyrmn new tricks.

Consider also that for high tech worlds, particularly with hostile environments (such as the Glisten asteroid belts, for example), I can easily imagine the notion that organic foods grown "naturally" under low tech conditions have a boutique appeal which simply cannot be replicated by other sources. It's one of those "grown by hand" types of bits of advertising that can sway addressable markets.

Kind of like how TESLA tends to label their products with the phrase *Made on Earth by humans* on various bits of hardware that they sell.
Does it make a difference to the function? No.
Does it make for smart advertising among "people in the know"? Most definitely.

Now imagine the equivalent to boutique restaurants importing agricultural foodstuffs from interstellar suppliers.
Yeah, the local hydroponic farm is going to be closer (and probably cheaper) ... but tell that to a Real Foodie™ who KNOWS the difference in sources and who will only accept the Real Thing™ harvested and processed the "original" way, as dictated by tradition.
I'll just mention the words "french" and "italian" in the context of cuisine (and the aficionados thereof) to prove my point.

Farming doesn't have to be high tech to produce sufficient surplus for export.
High tech CAN help, but it isn't always necessary (or economical) for individual farmers.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Bartleby]

Since my post on this thread I have discovered and purchased this:

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

COLONY BUILDER is a supplement for the Cepheus Engine roleplaying game and the Platinum selling HOSTILE setting. However, since it uses real world units, such as dollars, kilogrammes and megawatts, it makes a useful resource for ANY science fiction RPG.

Build a colony within the HOSTILE setting. Build a colony from your favourite SF movie or TV show. Make it pay. Keep your costs low. And then test in the market. How will it fare with a key group of characters at the helm? Make decisions for them as they try to fix the colony's inevitable problems, chart the fate of your creation into glory or ignominy. And then watch the corporation come in to take your profits!

 

[bookwyrm]

I wonder if I'm a bad person if seeing this ad makes me wonder if all the milk I've drank before has been touched by human hands. To take it a step further, I wonder if I should be worried. Has my quality of life been compromised by Human Touched Milk?

 

[Condottiere]

 

[warwizard]

Per tradition in the above, the maid rolling the cigar is a virgin.

 

[Condottiere]

I guess that human touch is a premium cost.

And yet, you pay premium without it, by ensuring greater sanitation.

 

[bookwyrm]

I guess that human touch is a premium cost.

And yet, you pay premium without it, by ensuring greater sanitation.

I think the difference is that for many, it's the reality that's important, and for the rest, it's the psychology that's important. Or even the symbolism of either that's important.

 

[atpollard]

I'm seeing a LOT of problems that cannot be overcome at TL=3-4.

Just to repeat (for the record), I SAID it could not be done at TL 3 (making your claim a bit of a strawman), however I do maintain that it CAN be built at TL 4 with more advanced knowledge of chemistry than was employed in that HISTORIC era on Earth (because Earth has cheaper alternatives or no need for better SRB fuel).

 

[atpollard]

Airless worlds tend to be lacking in surface water resources though ...

Only liquid. See the MOON and MARS for examples of non-liquid water in abundance.

 

[kilemall]

The following Tech Levels are drawn from The Traveller Book. Tech Level 0 is Stone Age. Tech Level 1 is the Bronze Age. Tech Level 2 is defined as 1400 to 1700.

Bronze Age Egypt was producing sufficient food to export thousands of tons of wheat per year to feed the Roman populace. During the 17th Century, from 1601 to 1700, France was also exporting large quantities of wheat and other grains to countries in Europe, while the Dutch herring fleet was supplying a large portion of Europe with salted herrings. If you have sufficient population, it is possible to have viable food exports at Tech Levels 1 and 2. Agriculture up to roughly the 1860s was heavily dependent on the manpower and land available. At that point, inventions such as the McCormick Reaper and the steam traction engine began to make agriculture less labor dependent, along with better farming methods. The railroads also had a major impact, as they made getting crops to markets much faster and easier.

Railroads allowed cheap access to vast amounts of arable land producing crops and animals, at the same time food preservation like refrigeration and canning were developed. Both huge multipliers in food generation, transportation and spoilage reduction.