T20 Combat

[Maspy]

In reviewing Star Wars T20 & finally Trav Lite, I came across an aspect of the system I don't think I like too much. Weapon Proficiencies as feats, not skills. Anyone else see this?
In D&D weapons were always class based and limited, so in 3rd Ed (D20) it didn't really bug me. But for SW20 & T20, it does.
Don't you think Weapons Pros should be a skill?
Feats come after 4 levels, class depending, so that SMG you've been sleeping with under your pillow is still going to be -4 for quite some time...
or Hmmmm, Id really like to make my mechanic a Gearhead, but I don't want him to be defenseless,so I'll buy Rifle now and get gearhead in 4 levels...

Anyone else have thought on this?

 

[DrSkull]

During playtest, a fair number of people wanted weapons as skills (not including me by the way), but they went with feats in order to maintain a high degree of d20 compatability.

But, almost every class has the "Marksman" feat, which includes proficiency in most civilian firearms anyway, so you'll always be able to fire off something useful (rilfe, carbine, shotgun, pistols and I think SMG).

 

[tjoneslo]

I, on the other hand, was a strong proponent of trying to use Weapon Proficicents as skills, not feats. The reason not to do it, is the BAB is the "Weapon Skill", and since everyone has a BAB (Weapon skill), there is no point in adding another skill, and removing the BAB from classes is too different from D20.

In my vision of T20, classes would not have BABs and there would be no weapon proficiency feats, but characters would be required to spend skill points on weapon skills which you needed to buy up like any other skill. In order to balance the classes back out, give all classes 6 skill points per level (except the ones that have 8 sp/lvl, leave them alone).

It's really not that big a change, and easy to implement as a house rule.

 

[Nearside]

I have to say that, as much as I like what I've read of the combat system, I think the critical hit system is a bit harsh.

 

[Smiling DM]

I don't have a problem with the weapon familiarity coming from Feats in D20, especially in T20.

We have to remember that Feats cover special abilities, special training, or special backgrounds for Characters in the D20 system.

While not being trained myself in firearms, I have heard it enough from the folks who are, that to be able to use an advanced slug-thrower as anything beyond a club some basic training is required. Joe Sixpack (John Doe's cousin) can not just pick up an assault rifle and use it effectively, unless he has been trained.

Some may argue that using Feats for this limits a character, but lets remember a few things. First, in D20, everyone starts with one Feat to spend at Character creation (and you get a another Feat for being Human). Depending on what class you choose, additional Feats (or their equivalents) are granted to reflect the basic training of that class.

In T20, its even easier because with the History Generator, you get to start at something higher than 1st level - you are guaranteed to make 3rd level just by surviving your first term

On average, the characters in my T20 game have been mustering out at 7-8th level. This gives them another 2-3 Feats, plus any bonus Feats (again, usually another 2-3) from their professions.

Therefore, when creating a T20 character, odds are you will have anywhere from 5-8 Feats to use to build them. From my direct experience with T20, this is more than enough to make a truly kick-a$$ character concept (current group has an 8th level Merchant who has focused on electronics and computers - his current T/Computer skill is +19, and while stunning, this is all legit and doesn't include the Hacker Feat, which he has as well). This same body of Feats can also be used to create a quite diverse character who has specialties or abilities in several different areas.

And this is just with T20 Lite - imagine what it would be if I had rules for all the classes. Oh well, just another week or so.

 

[justacaveman]

Don't forget that you don't need a feat to use most weapons, you need a feat to use the weapon without a penalty.

You can pick up that Gauss Rifle, but are you any good with it?

 

[CharmQuark]

Also, by using feats, you can get awsome special abilities that complement the type of combat you really want to focus in on like long range, short range, melee or whatever.

 

[Maspy]

I don’t contest that you need training to use a firearm well, but then you also need training (more intense training at that) to fly an aircraft. But Pilot is a skill. And it has a feat to give you bonuses.
Weapon Proficiencies should be a skill, with a feat to give you bonuses. They even have it mixed up in the rules… Get this: T20 Lite states that, “Feats are special abilities…[They] provide your character with special bonuses when using certain skills…” Gunnery is a skill, which gives you special bonuses if you possess the feat Ships Weaps. I may be reading it wrong, but Gunnery is a useless unless you have the feat.

7th level Merchant, the only weapon he can get his hands on is a gauss rifle. He only has the Marksman feat. He has to suffer the –4 penalty through 3 levels until he can be considered proficient by buying the Combat Rifleman feat. Oh, but wait…Combat Rifleman isn’t one of the allowed bonus feats for a Merchant…So what you have is a guy using a weapon continuously, but never gaining proficiency with it…

I never had any training on my SKS, but I can sure ‘bullseye a womp rat’. I learned to shoot on my own, with the help of free AOL disks, golf balls and bowling pins.

I think weapons proficiencies should be a skill. Then you include Feats for a kicker.

Ex: Buy the weapons prof of your choice (or with class limits). Every 4 levels of skill you get +1 to you BAB. If you get the Sharpshooter feat it is at every 2 levels of skill…

Or you can get other feats to compliment the combat type you're gunning for. (pun intended)

 

[Reginald]

If you put Weapon & Combat as skill, it must follow the Skill System rules. For combat-oriented characters, that means a 1st-level soldier (for example) can get as much as +4 bonus to his rifle skill. Even if the guy has blade skill, he has the offensive advantage against a typical D&D or d20 fighter. At 3rd level, he can get a secondary attack bonus (+6/+1).

Also, that means there is virtually only two BAB values, one strong (class skill) and one poor (cross-class skill). In D&D they have three values, and IIRC correctly, T20 will include a 4th which is the poorest BAB value for noncombatant class. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, generally skills checks do not apply the "natural 1/20 = auto failure/success" rule.

If you feel that the BAB is not restrictive when it comes to weapon non-proficiency, then include restriction: allow only one attack per round at a -4 (or worse) attack penalty, reduce weapon's threat range (20 is the minimum), etc.

 

[Takei]

Originally posted by Stephen Herron:
I have to say that, as much as I like what I've read of the combat system, I think the critical hit system is a bit harsh.

I think so as well and will just be using the damage multipliers for criticals, not ignoring armour.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Maspy:
I don’t contest that you need training to use a firearm well, but then you also need training (more intense training at that) to fly an aircraft. But Pilot is a skill. And it has a feat to give you bonuses.
Weapon Proficiencies should be a skill, with a feat to give you bonuses. They even have it mixed up in the rules… Get this: T20 Lite states that, “Feats are special abilities…[They] provide your character with special bonuses when using certain skills…” Gunnery is a skill, which gives you special bonuses if you possess the feat Ships Weaps. I may be reading it wrong, but Gunnery is a useless unless you have the feat.

In your example, the Feat "Ship's Weapons" represents the familiarity of using Starship weapons - in other words, you know how to strap yourself into a turret and use it. The Gunnery skill is a general bonus representing your particular talent for using ALL big, vehicular type wepaons (including self-propelled artillery, rocket launchers, etc.). Just becuase you know the prinicples of ballistics and can compute a trajectory (ala the Gunnery skill), that doesn't mean you know the specifics of launching weapons from a specific type of platform (which is what the Feat represents).

This is identical to the use of Familiarities in the Hero system - character have to pay points to be able to apply their skills to various vehicles or weapons.

7th level Merchant, the only weapon he can get his hands on is a gauss rifle. He only has the Marksman feat. He has to suffer the –4 penalty through 3 levels until he can be considered proficient by buying the Combat Rifleman feat. Oh, but wait…Combat Rifleman isn’t one of the allowed bonus feats for a Merchant…So what you have is a guy using a weapon continuously, but never gaining proficiency with it…

Sorry, but I think your are missing a few Feats. If you create a 7th level merchant (lets assume he is human), then he has 4 General Feats (can be spent on ANYTHING) and 4 Bonus Feats. You are right, the Bonus Feats can't go for Combat Rifleman, but any 1 of the 4 General Feats can.

If you are roleplaying the charcter, and he comes across the Gauss rifle, then you are correct, he will have to suffer through the penalty - but for only 2 levels (7th and 8th), because when he reaches 9th level, he gets another General Feat with which he can buy Combat Rifleman (Heck - your GM might even allow you to take the Feat at 9th without any outside training, representing that your guy did indeed learn on his own - just took a painful amount of time)

Either way, I think the system works out better than you think.

I think weapons proficiencies should be a skill. Then you include Feats for a kicker.

This is indeed the one area where the D20 developers missed out on an opportunity - I agree that if they would have included Combat ability as Skills that the system would be PERFECT. As it is, I think it works well (not perfect, but certainly much better than 1st and 2nd Ed D&D).

There's always the option of House Rules, such as what you have suggested - personally I am going to wait and run a few campaigns with the core rules in T20 before I make too many changes, just incase there are some subtleties in the mechanics that aren't readily apparent.

 

[Reginald]

If you want the "Weapon as Skill" rule, you're going to have to make many changes because one affects the other.

1. Do not follow the Class/Cross-Class mechanics.
Class and cross-class skill not only determine which skills are easier to learn but also determine maximum rank per level: character level plus 3 for class skills, half that for cross-class skill.

2. Change feat's prerequisites
Some feats requires you to meet a certain BAB or higher. By applying statement 1, feats may have to associate with certain weapon and combat skills. For example, Spring Attack feat must apply toward certain melee weapon skills. The problem is that if you do not have the appropriate rank in other melee weapons skills, Spring Attack feat may not work with that weapon skill due low rank not meeting the minimum.

 

[Maspy]

Originally posted by Reginald:
If you want the "Weapon as Skill" rule, you're going to have to make many changes because one affects the other.

1. Do not follow the Class/Cross-Class mechanics.
Class and cross-class skill not only determine which skills are easier to learn but also determine maximum rank per level: character level plus 3 for class skills, half that for cross-class skill.

2. Change feat's prerequisites
Some feats requires you to meet a certain BAB or higher. By applying statement 1, feats may have to associate with certain weapon and combat skills. For example, Spring Attack feat must apply toward certain melee weapon skills. The problem is that if you do not have the appropriate rank in other melee weapons skills, Spring Attack feat may not work with that weapon skill due low rank not meeting the minimum.

1. You just set the different Weapon Profs as class or cross class skills... Weapons-Marksman would be a class skill for Merchants. Weapons-Combat Rifleman would be cross class.

2.Correct me if I'm wrong , but my understanding is the BAB is a fixed number based on your level(s). If you have a BAB of +6 in one melee weapon, you have a BAB of +6 in all. Your final 'to hit' number across different weapons might be different due to other modifiers, such as abilities, feats or circumstances, but the BAB is the same. So, this wouldn't affect feats that require a BAB prerquisite.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Maspy:
I never had any training on my SKS, but I can sure ‘bullseye a womp rat’. I learned to shoot on my own, with the help of free AOL disks, golf balls and bowling pins.

You never had any 'formal' training, but you 'learned to shoot on my own'. That's training, just an informal version of it. You have the Marksman Weapon Proficiency.

The Weapon Proficiency feats represent some form of training. Basically you have learned how to use the weapon and provide basic maintenance on it. The feat does not represent years of training or use. That comes from level advancement and the accumulation of experience in the form of an improved BAB.

One of the reasons the combat classes have fewer skill points per level in T20 is because they advance more rapidly in their BAB. They basically spend most of their time training with their chosen weapon proficiencies, leaving much less time to spend training on other skills.

Hunter

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Makes sense to me. I can't wait to try the system out.

 

[Reginald]

Originally posted by Maspy:

1. You just set the different Weapon Profs as class or cross class skills... Weapons-Marksman would be a class skill for Merchants. Weapons-Combat Rifleman would be cross class.

See my October 11 post above.

2.Correct me if I'm wrong , but my understanding is the BAB is a fixed number based on your level(s). If you have a BAB of +6 in one melee weapon, you have a BAB of +6 in all. Your final 'to hit' number across different weapons might be different due to other modifiers, such as abilities, feats or circumstances, but the BAB is the same. So, this wouldn't affect feats that require a BAB prerquisite.

Actually, BAB is a based on class and level. I thought the discussion is to replace BAB with several weapon & combat skills, not add to it.

HOWEVER, if you wish to use BAB as sort of a maximum combat skill rank value, go right ahead, but that will add more confusion to the mechanics, especially with regards to multiclassing.

It is in my conclusion that a different weapon & combat skill system mechanic (apart from the known d20 Skill System rules mechanic) is the more sensible option.

 

[Maspy]

Originally posted by Reginald:

...I thought the discussion is to replace BAB with several weapon & combat skills, not add to it.

Oh no. Replacing the BAB with skills is too much monkeying with the system. I'm a tweaker, not a monkeyer. I was just suggesting that weapons proficiencies should be skills not Feats. A PC with a weapons skill would still use the same BAB. They would just avoid the -4 penalty.

Whether or not those skills add modifiers to the total 'to hit' number is the next question.

a)No. The weapons skills are special in that their purchase just nullifies the -4 non familiarity penalty for that group of weapons.

b)Yes. Every rank in the weapon skill adds on to the total 'to hit' roll. (Too much IMHO)

c)Somewhat. Every 4th rank adds a +1 modifier. This can allow for the creation of a new feat, Sharpshooter, which drops it to every 2nd or 3rd rank...

 

[Reginald]

Wait a minute. Now you want to treat weapon & combat skills like D&D language skills, mechanic-wise?

 

[Maspy]

Originally posted by Reginald:
Wait a minute. Now you want to treat weapon & combat skills like D&D language skills, mechanic-wise?

Why not? Skills are skills. You have to learn them somehow. Whether through formal or informal training. Though learning to fire a rifle is a might easier than learning to read/write Liam's Latin...

 

[apoc527]

I fail to see how treating firearms proficiency as a Feat is practically different from using a Language or "Perform" type skill mechanic.

I think Feats work fine as is. If you want to represent more training, take Weapon Focus.