T5 Poll part II: What system do you want in T5?

[Roger Calver]

In the end it all come down to what Marc wants to do with it.
If hes interested in it then all well and good but im guessing here maybe he doesn't care at all anyway.
Whilst true a low number of votes is not a fair measure the over riding result is no one wants a T5 with a new system and which has no conversion rules.
People want it to be the CT/MT idea mainly but some still will buy T5 what ever it turns out to be.

 

[Malenfant]

Stainless - I'm well aware of all that. But again, do you have any practical ideas for improving the validity of these polls? This is all we can do here.

It probably isn't representative at all. But what else would you suggest to actually get a better result? My view is that something (even if it is biased and non-representative) is better than nothing - it can certainly be taken with a large EU surplus mountain of salt, but it's better than having no clue at all.

 

[Malenfant]

Doesn't look like there's much more movement on the poll, so here's the result after 40 votes:

Refined CT only (no tasks) 5% (2)

Refined CT/MT hybrid (best of both worlds, tasks) 68% (27)

Refined TNE (bring the GDW house system back!) 7% (3)

Refined T4 (half dice, etc) 7% (3)

Other existing system (GT, refined d20, etc) 7% (3)

Brand new system unlike any previous ones, with notes to convert from older systems. 0% (0)

Brand new system unlike any previous ones, with no conversion notes. 0% (0)

I don't want any system at all in T5 5% (2)

So of those who voted there is a very clear majority for a CT/MT hybrid.

 

[Gruffty]

So of those who voted there is a very clear majority for a CT/MT hybrid.

i.e. ACT......

 

[atpollard]

The problem with creating T5 from ANY earlier system, is what is the point? Why not just do a minor edit and re-release the old system? The people who favor any existing system, already have all the material (like the CT & MT CD ROMs). Why buy what you already have?

Given the internal inconsistencies and dated concepts in all of the previous systems, anything that "updated" or "fixed" one of the previous systems, would render T5 incompatible with all of the previous systems, anyway. As all of us are aware, the existing systems are often self contradictory - LBB123 contradicts High Guard which contradicts Striker (all CT).

If incompatibility is unavoidable, then GO FOR IT! Start with a clean slate. To heck with “compatibility”. Allow the imagination to run hog wild and create the greatest imaginable “Traveller” using a game system and concepts never seen before. Let it stand or fall on it’s own merit. Leave room for the video game tie in (including the on-line multi-player version).

It is my opinion that RPGs bridged a gap between Monopoly and Master of Orion. Traveller survives in the same way that Monopoly survives. The cutting edge has moved to X-Box and the PC. That is where new players and markets will come from. RPGs are not dead, but like the age of sail, the ERA OF THE RPG has passed. The future belongs to Innovation – freed from the shackles of any earlier system.

I do not know if Mr. Miller has another radical innovation in him, but if he does, it will not be a Classic Traveller – Megatraveller clone. CT is my favorite version, but it is not the wave of the future.

I voted “Brand new system unlike any previous ones, with no conversion notes.” Save the conversion notes for future issues of ‘Stellar Reaches’.

 

[Father Fletch]

No T5 please.
I won't use it.
The last outing with T4 frankly was not appealing or intuitive as the old CT or even MT.
If I was going to use a "pick some D6 and roll" at that level of Non-Granularity of character stats I would play Risus Traveller instead.
Otherwise those who enjoy the stats being detailed will likely stick with New Era rules, GT rules, or some house version of Champions for the character stats.
The material I bought for T4 was out of a sense of loyalty, collection completion and as source material where needed.
While my son and daughter play Traveller with me, I seriously doubt they will play it after college. I think that we are the last generation to take Traveller deeply to heart. Many of my children's peers know much more about the back story of D&D, WOW, Vampire and Halo than have even heard of Traveller.
I love this stuff, and will continue to support it by running games, buying online PDFs, buying the occasional hardcopy at my FLGS, and even contributing material (Stellar Reaches, etc.). Beyond that, I would much rather see a new block of systemless background history characters locations politics, what have you. T20 was a wonderful shot in the arm and SJ Games will continue to support GT for awhile. Beyond that I just do not think the market exists to try and go to press with yet another set of rules.

 

[flykiller]

The future belongs to Innovation – freed from the shackles of any earlier system.

sounds like my rpg.

rpg's are about innovation - your own rules, your own setting, your own adventure. your own game. xbox is someone else's innovation, someone else's game that you buy into, feed off of, depend upon - consumer games.

calling consumer games "innovative" sounds like newspeak.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Sounds to me like a good place to end this...

 

[kafka47]

I wonder if T5 would be ACT (with Marc buying up the rights from ComStar) and release it as a no art PDF in June 2007 with some extra crunchy bits that are his personal favourite projects that were destined for T5 mk 1 ie Alien generation tables, equipment that he uses in his own Traveller Universe and some canon guidelines.

Then later commit to making a full colour hardback of the ACT rules with some more scrunchies.

Then allow anyone to apply for a licence to fill in their favourite Traveller topic.

Would the Traveller community be happy?

 

[Scott Martin]

Originally posted by Anthony:
It's not a lot better than nothing, though. The verbose people are often not particularly representative.

I (un?)represent that remark

Scott Martin

 

[robject]

Originally posted by kafka47:
I wonder if T5 would be ACT (with Marc buying up the rights from ComStar) and release it as a no art PDF in June 2007 with some extra crunchy bits that are his personal favourite projects that were destined for T5 mk 1 ie Alien generation tables, equipment that he uses in his own Traveller Universe and some canon guidelines.

Then later commit to making a full colour hardback of the ACT rules with some more scrunchies.

Then allow anyone to apply for a licence to fill in their favourite Traveller topic.

Would the Traveller community be happy?

That's a clever thought, one that didn't occur to me.

T5's current incarnation isn't even close to ACT.

I don't even know how to describe or compare what I know of T5.

Chargen preserves the Traveller lifepath feel, but is about as far from T4 as it is from MT. I don't know what TNE's chargen is like.

Personal combat seems to be derived from T4, expanded to cover various types of damage, but again, I know nothing of TNE.

Materials technology comes from FFS/FFS2, and, for those who care, I think the weapon design rules from FFS are not going to change. For those who don't care, you won't have to worry about it.

The howling errors with fusion+ in FFS2 do not apply. Power generation is more like that in MT.

Bits of CT and FFS are in starship design, which also takes a page from MT and extends down into smallcraft and vehicles. It's easier to build a small starship in T5 than HG, MT, or QSDS, but more involved than Book 2. It's a 2-tier system, with FFS able to build components for the simple level.

The breadth and TL range of stuff is more like MT than T4, which is a relief.

Scott is making a case for TNE's Brilliant Lances-style ship combat, I think (Scott?).

That's the view from a low, non-polar orbit.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

There's no way Marc's buying the rights to a licensed version of his own game and then publishing that as T5.

I mean, c'mon.

Or am I misunderstanding the idea?

 

[kafka47]

No, Rhialto, you don't misunderstand what I posted, I ask you to speculate what if Marc saw the superior product and decided to make it his own (with proper acknowledgements and all that) but essentially buy out ComStar's work and thereby pay the creators of the rules. Would people be happy?

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Well kafka, I don't claim to speak for The People, AND I have never seen a shred of ACT...

Having said that, those among The People who did see it have spoken well of it, leading me to believe that both The People and I, Rhialto the Marvelous, would indeed be happy.

But it's all pie in the sky. Remember, Marc KILLED it. He's not going to resurrect it AND pay money for it AND adopt it as his own. If experience is any guide, he wants to design his own T5, and on principle there's nothing wrong with that.

Or are you saying you have concrete info that he might change his mind???

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Rhialto the Marvelous:
Having said that, those among The People who did see it have spoken well of it, leading me to believe that both The People and I, Rhialto the Marvelous, would indeed be happy.

Just FYI...

Not all people who've seen ACT think it's the second coming of Classic Traveller. I didn't like it and wouldn't use it if published. I found a major flaw in the task system that--a flaw similar to that in T4's task system (which I originally found and alerted people to on the TML some ten plus years ago)--seemingly was being ignored, having ACT published with the flaw (without fixing it).

A game's task system is its major mechanic. Almost all of a game is based on that mechanic. So, if you find a flaw like that in the task system, then it's a major blow to the game's design.

Anyway...not to derail the thread...I just wanted to set the record straight that not all Classic Traveller lovers embraced ACT.

Back to your regular programming...

-S4

 

[sinbadsam]

hmm

Seems I have been in my grognard cave a bit too long, but what exactly is ACT?

Supplement 4 what is the flaw(s) you mention, if you like start a new thread to inform/discuss it.

Sinbad Sam

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Yes, I'd like to hear about it, too? Maybe in the CT forum?

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm going to refrain from getting into it right now. I really don't want to start a thread about it or derail this one.

Sinbad, ACT is Avenger Classic Traveller. It is MJD's set of house rules that he was going to publish--a sort of upgrade to Classic Traveller. From what I heard, MWM pulled the plug on that one for fear that it might compete with T5.

As far as ACT's flaws, the task system had a major flaw (not unlike T4's) that overweight's stats in favor over skill, and a some minor flaws as well. It definitely could be improved upon, and it's no match for the UGM (I say that not because I wrote the UGM but because I really believe it.).

Seriously, though. Let's not discuss ACT. People seem to mysteriously get censored and banned when such criticisms of Avenger products start to appear. I was banned from the Avenger/Comstar forum, and Shaman, just a day or so ago, was banned from he CotI after he stated his dislike of Avenger's stuff.

I really don't have a beef with "Avenger" stuff, just the ACT task system. I haven't looked at Avenger stuff closely enough to make an opinion. But, as far as the ACT task system is concerned, I know it's broken.

But...

(On second thought, I'm killing my comments here. That's all I'll say for now on ACT and Avenger. I've already had my UGM thread deleted once by what I suspect was censorship...let's not raise the anger of the tiger again.)

-S4

 

[sinbadsam]

Hmm I have found these threads on the UGM system

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=44;t=000457#000000

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=000167#000000

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=44;t=000410#000000

This thread when searched for says it does, but when clicked on does not exist

"THE UNIVERSAL GAME MECHANIC - better than ever edition" from August 28, 2006 but another thread older does exist.....

all of the other threads after seem to online and there.

Hmmm....

S4 could you empty out your COTI message box it is full, Thanks

Sinbad Sam

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
I'm going to refrain from getting into it right now. I really don't want to start a thread about it or derail this one.

Please do follow your advice sir.

Sinbad, ACT is Avenger Classic Traveller. It is MJD's set of house rules that he was going to publish--a sort of upgrade to Classic Traveller. From what I heard, MWM pulled the plug on that one for fear that it might compete with T5.

As far as ACT's flaws, the task system had a major flaw (not unlike T4's) that overweight's stats in favor over skill, and a some minor flaws as well. It definitely could be improved upon, and it's no match for the UGM (I say that not because I wrote the UGM but because I really believe it.).

On ACT vs. UGM, S4, please don't forget to add "In my opinion.."

Seriously, though. Let's not discuss ACT. People seem to mysteriously get censored and banned when such criticisms of Avenger products start to appear. I was banned from the Avenger/Comstar forum, and Shaman, just a day or so ago, was banned from he CotI after he stated his dislike of Avenger's stuff.

S4:
You are quite mistaken about the Shaman. He was banned, as was Malenfant for breaking the rules here on CoTI about bad behavior.

I really don't have a beef with "Avenger" stuff, just the ACT task system. I haven't looked at Avenger stuff closely enough to make an opinion. But, as far as the ACT task system is concerned, I know it's broken.

Interesting opinion there. Hard to prove since you weren't there to see it finished to render such a judgement.

But...

(On second thought, I'm killing my comments here. That's all I'll say for now on ACT and Avenger. I've already had my UGM thread deleted once by what I suspect was censorship...let's not raise the anger of the tiger again.)-S4

Note 1: I did not delete your UGM thread.

Note 2: I did not censor this post. Nor will I--it falls within the rules after all of civility.

Note 3: Accepting bad behavior from fans as acceptable behavior when you agree with them does not make it acceptable to the rules established by this board. Nor to those who Moderate it.

Note 4: Go call MWM and sell him the UGM concept yourself. By pass Hunter, bypass MJD, and get it it in print.

Have a nice St Patrick's day,

sincerely,

This *tiger* now pads back to the rocky outcrop to watch the well behaving herd in the shade..