Talkin' Vilani

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Perhaps, colloquially, "gig sidane": "no action".

Other than to point out that Vilani imperatives are irrealis mode, I think your idea of using certain copular formations as informal commands is spot on. This would be useful for downward directed imperatives (directions from authority figures, peace officers, etc.), and in somewhat urgent equal-speech situations.

Grammatically, though, it should be the iggi sidane ("this action shall/should not be"), as opposed to gig sidane ("no action is happening").

Other notes: if the situation were really bad (if someone were about to walk off the edge of a cliff, step into a bear trap, etc.) the speaker might be allowed to direct this statement upward by adding the exclamatory proclitic -iin, as in iggiin sidade ("this action must not be!"). The generic iggi ruu ("this thing shall/should not be") might cover a lot of conversational ground; although great care should be taken with this one, as I think it could be taken very poorly under the wrong circumstances. Finally, the verb by itself (iggi!) might even be enough to stop someone in their tracks, if shouted forcefully enough (the Vilani equivalent of "don't!").

Other phrases:

Iggi ersedek ("don't move.")
Iggi sudirnek ("stop whatever you're doing.")
Iggi ukunek ("cease sleeping/wake up.)
Iggi iipdali ("stop trying/give up.")
​

The converse of iggi, ikhi, might have a subtly different usage, on the other hand. Couple it with that exclamatory proclitic again (-iin) and/or the pseudo-pronoun simgaanerii, and we suddenly have what could arguably be called the Vilani cohortative mode. For example:

Ikhiin (simgaanerii) ashdiinek! ("Let us begin!")
Ikhiin (simgaanerii) gigishek! ("Let us dance!")
Ikhiin (simgaanerii) dishaanek! ("Let the feast begin!")
​

Or, from /shilig/ to stop:

Leshiliggi.

Leshiligguke. Sir, please desist.
Leshiliggi. You over there, halt.
Leshilig. Stop that, you imbecile.

Yes, plus some of the verb stems I used above. Although I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to abandon the subject prefix in this case, since the second person is almost always implied in imperatives?

Of course, I don't want to cause any problems (like Vilani heads exploding at the thought of naked verb stems parading around in public), so maybe not.

 

[aramis]

the dropping of the pronomial affix might be a specific habitual "clipping" (as in Klingon), for use in stress situations, with an imperative understanding of "You who should be doing this..." with an implicit down-rank connotation...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

the gurukarpu speaks, sadly in Anglic...

I would think that Aramis might be right on this, I mean I am still learning, but so far my xeno-study of the Vilani seems to indicate that Rank and Title had a great significance in the social interactions and I would think that this would have a huge impact on the forms and manners of address between parties.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Very true, gurukarshe; but the direction of the imperative phrase is mostly encoded by the postclitic used, rather than the pronomials. There are three postclitics in the Vilani imperative: -guke (polite), -ke (neutral), and -[null] (explicitly downward/rude).

So the question isn't whether stripping the pronomial from the imperative case is going to offend the listener, but rather confuse him. If you can't imply the second person perspective ("you") in Vilani imperatives, then you can't strip the pronomial from the verbal stem, because the phrase becomes too ambiguous for any listener to know what to do about it. The implied second person in imperatives is actually pretty common in Terran languages (including Anglic), and as such we don't have to connect a verbal command with a pronoun; but that doesn't necessarily mean Vilani will swing that way.

My main concern isn't with most imperatives (example: "Shoot the target, mister." "Help me with that desk over there, will you."), but rather the urgent ones ("Shoot! Shoot!" "Help! Help!"). Most Vilani verb stems are short and sweet; but by the time you get one all grammared up and dropped into a sentence, you wind up with quite a lot more syllables than you started out with.

That works fine for the vast majority of situations. But if you should find yourself drowning, or on fire, or dangling off the edge of a cliff, or trying to clear an iris valve of debris while a pack of angry Vargr fire bullets over your head, it'd be handy if you could shave a little time off your request for help at the expense of a few syllabilic niceties.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*the gurukarpu bows to the seniors*

Very true, gurukarshe; but the direction of the imperative phrase is mostly encoded by the postclitic used, rather than the pronomials. There are three postclitics in the Vilani imperative: -guke (polite), -ke (neutral), and -[null] (explicitly downward/rude).

So what is the definition of the bold words, above please? I mean I get post* and pro* (after and before, right?), but the other parts? And the correct form of address to one's most worthy teachers. *grins and blows some sunshine*

So the question isn't whether stripping the pronomial from the imperative case is going to offend the listener, but rather confuse him. If you can't imply the second person perspective ("you") in Vilani imperatives, then you can't strip the pronomial from the verbal stem, because the phrase becomes too ambiguous for any listener to know what to do about it. The implied second person in imperatives is actually pretty common in Terran languages (including Anglic), and as such we don't have to connect a verbal command with a pronoun; but that doesn't necessarily mean Vilani will swing that way.

So, ummm, how do you tell the diff between 'you' singular and 'you' plural? By the suffixes and prefixes attached?

My main concern isn't with most imperatives (example: "Shoot the target, mister." "Help me with that desk over there, will you."), but rather the urgent ones ("Shoot! Shoot!" "Help! Help!"). Most Vilani verb stems are short and sweet; but by the time you get one all grammared up and dropped into a sentence, you wind up with quite a lot more syllables than you started out with.

That works fine for the vast majority of situations. But if you should find yourself drowning, or on fire, or dangling off the edge of a cliff, or trying to clear an iris valve of debris while a pack of angry Vargr fire bullets over your head, it'd be handy if you could shave a little time off your request for help at the expense of a few syllabilic niceties.

So are you the Subject if you're falling off a cliff or the person you are trying to get to pull you up?

On a slightly different tack, have you considered making sound files of like common words or maybe Robject's various texts? I have been kinda messing with this concept with a friend but we are having a bit of difficulty as I am still learning and don't have a printer set up yet, and there is a lot to print and my PMU in the Mac is dying, sadly....

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

So what is the definition of the bold words, above please? I mean I get post* and pro* (after and before, right?), but the other parts?

Pronomial is just a ten-dollar word for the pronoun prefixes that are stamped on to every Vilani verb stem.

And I think a clitic is best described as a word that is in a symbiotic relationship with another word. They also sort of occupy a gray area between a full (i.e. separate) word and an affix (a suffix or a prefix). An example of an Anglic clitic is the possessive "apostrophe 's'" (as in "John's hat"). The "'ve" in "they've" is another example. "An" and "the" are examples of Anglic clitics that are still listed as separate words.

Vilani has a wider range of clitics than Anglic, and makes extensive use of them. Most are affixes (such as the imperatives -guke and -ke). The case marker ka is an example of a Vilani clitic that is still usually written as a separate word (although it can also be a prefix, depending on the writer's preference).

And the correct form of address to one's most worthy teachers. *grins and blows some sunshine*

Be careful! Overcomplimenting a Vilani can backfire. For, in the words of one common aphorism, [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]mursinek iire khulunek -- "to be praised is to be ruined."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
There are a few words for teacher:

• medukiide: meaning "to teach, train." Probably very basic or physical in nature, since word can also refer to an animal trainer.
• diparmedukiide is an honorific derived from medukiide. From diparsimedukiide. To me, this also sounds like a teacher of physical arts (sculpture, carpentry, masonry, etc.)
• kaaren can mean instructor, tutor, or even moralizer. It comes from kaar "to be correct" + en "lord, master." It is etymologically related to karun, a word typically translated as "king, emperor."

Gal(i)- (meaning "great, respected") is a prefix that can be attached to words as an honorific. I don't know if anyone here is high enough up to qualify for that, however. Vilani reputations take a loooong time to develop. Well, I suppose MWM and the rest of the GDW staff would qualify; but I don't think anyone else does.

So, ummm, how do you tell the diff between 'you' singular and 'you' plural? By the suffixes and prefixes attached?

Nope. There really isn't a difference between second person singular and plural in Vilani grammar. Just like in Anglic (which doesn't distinguish between singular and plural "you" either), it's mostly determined by the context of the situation itself.

Like Anglic, there is a collection of Vilani words that can be used to remove ambiguity, if the writer or speaker feels a need to. Binerii "you/for you," bimaa "you two," and bimaanerii "you guys" can be used to add focus to the sentence; although it's important to not that, grammatically speaking, these are helpful, but not at all necessary, words.

So are you the Subject if you're falling off a cliff or the person you are trying to get to pull you up?

It's almost always "you" (i.e. the rescuer, rather than the dude calling out from the cliff) that is the subject (transitive) or object (intransitive) of the imperative. The transitive version of such a request would be translated more-or-less as "(You) help me," and the intransitive version would be "(You) be helpful."

On a slightly different tack, have you considered making sound files of like common words or maybe Robject's various texts? I have been kinda messing with this concept with a friend but we are having a bit of difficulty as I am still learning and don't have a printer set up yet, and there is a lot to print and my PMU in the Mac is dying, sadly....

Yes, I actually have thought about that. But I only have a rudimentary understanding of the tonal aspects of the language as of yet, and that really should be locked down before I go around trying to pretend to have any authority on how to actually speak it.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Thanks again.

OK, some of that I was right on, but am learning or trying to learn to not get to slick and well, this and Vilani Word are reminding me how much is back in the very bottom storage of my brain.

And now I have to make copies of these threads and add them to my Vilani Language folder...and get a printer set up one of these days.

Anyway, slowly but surely, I will pick this up.

Of course yet one more question, where can I pick up more on the whole of Vilani Culture online and offline? Though with moving in 2 months, books will have to wait a bit, so I'd appreciate more online at the moment. Please and thank you.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

What we need is to get a Traveller TV show or something...

Only took us three years!

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Holy crap....

I remember this thread, damn that was a while ago.

So where were we anyway? Oh yeah, I was asking annoying questions.