Tech Level Differences

[Madarin Dude]

I kind of like to keep tech levels as stated. Makes me come up with more unusual solutions. Also it alows for traveller to have a differnt feel.
Attacking a TL6 world a piece of cake. What do you mean those are nuclear air to air missiles being launched by that jet there. I didn't get any point defense software for our computer.
It allows somone to think of things in a historical sense. Might be fun to have sailing ships in traveller for a spell.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Madarin Dude--

Your take on taking the TL 'as is', is equally valid.

Agreed, it does cause players [depending on homeworld, etc]used to higher technology, to learn to adapt to lower but still equally useful technology for the tech era of that world.
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As for your attacking a TL-6 world beng a piece of cake, I might argue that WW2 TL-4 China, while not the industrial giant of TL-5/6 Imperial Japan, continued to make occupation for them costly, and were not utterly 'conquered'.

The will of the people to resist far outweighed any technology brought to bear. Vietnam, and Afghanistan for more modern examples of this apply.

In game, look at some of the worlds like Nicosia in TNE era. TL-3, yet the Reformation Coalition had difficulty 'subduing it'.. and they held the technological edge in every sense.
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No, in neither case were nuclear weapons brought to bear, I postulate for our side of the coin.

And yes, sailing ships and dirigibles [zepplins, etc] are a cool things to see for a change.

 

[flykiller]

The will of the people to resist far outweighed any technology brought to bear. Vietnam, and Afghanistan for more modern examples of this apply.

(and iraq?)

the united states and the soviet union could have eliminated vietnam and afghanistan from the face of the earth in a day. the will of vietnamese and afghan people wasn't the issue, the will and/or morality of the united states and the soviet union was.

as for china/japan, japan was a high-tech lightweight unable to manufacture enough bullets to overcome china's vast manpower. if japan had had nukes they would have used them and china today would not be the world's most populous nation.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The people who can afford passage How's a minimum of Cr1000 and the gamble of dying in a low-berth for an immigration restriction

The real world suggests: not enough. Plenty of people are willing to get on to leaky boats, to walk across deserts, or to cram themselves into the backs of trucks in search of a hopefully better life.

Furthermore, once one such migrant succeeds, they can then hopefully fund other members of their families and communities...

But the rate of flow isn't likely to be great enough to measurably depopulate their original homelands unless they come from very small populations to begin with.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by bobbycondo:
I am curious how everyone handles it when their groups go to worlds that have a lower TLs than the worlds that the groups are from? Is there any code of non-interference (ala Star Trek), or is it a free for all, regardless of any impact to the native culture?

Jim,

This topic has displaced piracy as the most debated subject in Traveller canon. To answer your question, I need to ask you one. When you're discussing tech levels, are you talking about tech levels in Traveller or are you talking about tech levesl in the OTU. The two are not the same thing and that's what everyone is this debate always forgets.

Traveller introduced tech levels in LBB:1 and didn't even mention the Imperium/OTU until LBB:4. Tech levels in both are handled quite differently.

In Traveller, tech levels can be taken 'as is', a straight and accurate description of a world's abilities.

In the OTU, tech levels must mean something else. There is NO Star Blecch 'Prime Directive' in the OTU. Other than interdicted Red Zones, no world is cut off from the universe at large. There is free movement of goods, services, and peoples between starports in the OTU also. Anyone one of those will eventually leak across the tightest extrality fence any 57th Century North Korea can erect and influence a world's tech level. The thousands of worlds in the Imperium which are below the Imperial 'standard' TLs of 13- 15 cannot all be populated by neo-luddites, back to nature freaks, or far future Amish, so tech level must mean something else.

One suggestion that has met wide approval is that TL in the OTU refers to a world's per capita income. I agree with that somewhat and take it one step further - Tech Levels in version of the OTU refer to a planet's culture when compared to the mainstream, TL 13- 15, culture(s) of the Imperium. ForEx: We have plenty of cash rich, tech poor, nations here on Earth. IMHO, those nations lack the culture to use and maintain high tech items.

(This is not to denigrate those cultures. They may have wonderful music, charming folkways, brew great beer, and so forth, but they lack those cultural attirbutes that pertain to tech level. My idea measures just one aspect of culture and not the entirety of a culture.)

So, which is it? Tech levels in Traveller? Or tech levels in the OTU?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Consider this example, the world of Thisbe in the Trin's Veil subsector of the Spinward Marches is a desert world that has undertaken the long term project of diverting large numbers of frozen water and gas asteroids to the planetary surface with the aim of improving its hydrographic and atmosphere ratings.

Can you guess the world's TL?


It's TL5.

Sigg,

Ooops! Check that blurb again!

The project on Thisbe is being handled by an imperial ministry with a megacorp as the contractor. I'm sure the good folk of Thisbe help in some ways; mopping floors, serving meals, getting crushed in machinery, etc., but they certainly aren't running the project.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Theo D Lite:
Unless there are imigration restrictions (such as possessing skills to the advantage of the higher tech world) these worlds will see a population increase over time and a corresponding decrease on the lower tech worlds.

Theo,

Which is exactly what there are; Immigration AND Emigration restrictions. You can't move from World A to World B if World A won't let you leave and World B won't let you stay.

Before anyone starts blathering about 'human rights' or some other such nonsense, let me remind you all that, other than chattel slavery, the Imperium doesn't do human rights. There are of nasty worlds aplenty in canon and, as long as they pay their taxes and keep from making too much noise, the Imperium doesn't get too worried about any of them(1). You can even finagle your way around the chattle slavery prohibition too, just as the (in)famous MYMINES, INC. thread on the TML did several years ago.

This is the bit everyone always forgets about the Imperium. In our Western, 21st Century, liberal, democratic biases, we automatically assume that the Imperium is made of sovereign people who 'grant' that polity the right to govern. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The Imperium isn't made of sovereign people, it's made up of sovereign worlds and what those worlds say is what is important. Now, some worlds have various methods that allow the people to express their opinions through the organs of government and, on those worlds, what the world says is what the people say. On other worlds however, the people's opinion isn't worth a plug nickel and, on those worlds, what the rulers say is what the world says.

And life goes on. Hi-ho.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - The Imperium may very well interfere on a covert basis. Psychohistory is an Imperial science after all and test labs are needed.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
The project on Thisbe is being handled by an imperial ministry with a megacorp as the contractor. I'm sure the good folk of Thisbe help in some ways; mopping floors, serving meals, getting crushed in machinery, etc., but they certainly aren't running the project.

Actually, there's a reasonable chance that at least some inhabitants of Thisbe are being, or have been, trained to participate in the project at a higher level. That's still not enough to raise Thisbe's TL.

Any relatively poor and technologically backward corner of Earth you care to name has its people who are as well trained and educated as anyone on this list. Just not enough of them, and/or the wealth, infrastructure, political stability and so on to support large scale "modern" technology.

For example, I first heard the details of the disintegration of Somalia from a Somali who was working as a IT consultant in Papua New Guinea. He was senior to me in the organisation. (This was before the situation had hit the headlines, and a year or two before the US intervention/invasion).

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The will of the people to resist far outweighed any technology brought to bear. Vietnam, and Afghanistan for more modern examples of this apply.

(and iraq?)

the united states and the soviet union could have eliminated vietnam and afghanistan from the face of the earth in a day. the will of vietnamese and afghan people wasn't the issue, the will and/or morality of the united states and the soviet union was.

as for china/japan, japan was a high-tech lightweight unable to manufacture enough bullets to overcome china's vast manpower. if japan had had nukes they would have used them and china today would not be the world's most populous nation. </font>[/QUOTE]--------------------------------------------------
Might I kindly suggest we take this to another topic, Mssr. Flykiller? I'd rather not derail this one.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by alanb:
Actually, there's a reasonable chance that at least some inhabitants of Thisbe are being, or have been, trained to participate in the project at a higher level. That's still not enough to raise Thisbe's TL.

Alan,

True. Ability and potential know no borders. However, it is a Ministry/Megacorp project and not a Thisbe project.

Just not enough of them, and/or the wealth, infrastructure, political stability and so on to support large scale "modern" technology.

In other words, those regions lack the necessary cultural underpinnings. When I speak about culture, I'm speaking about societies and not individuals. Individuals are always individual after all!

For example, I first heard the details of the disintegration of Somalia from a Somali who was working as a IT consultant in Papua New Guinea.

Did an indigenous Somali organization provide his primary schooling or what it a 'mission school'? Where did he recieve his post-secondary schooling? Did any indigenous Somali institutions have anything to do with his education? His training? His certifications?

Naturally, the answer to all those questions is NO. He's a Somali by 'nature' and yet not a Somali by 'nuture'.

He doesn't even live in Somalia now, does he?

Somalia may be the place of his birth, but he's moved on to better things and a more tech/education friendly culture, let alone a more orderly one.

He's a bit like a Traveller!


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Madarin Dude]

Just to throw a wrench in the works is where I live. It is all ends of the spectrum at once. Here you can see some poor farmer getting his good to market on his bicycle he reaches into his pocket and answers his state of the art camera phone that is made here too. There is a space program that is active and there is poverty and living like it was 100 years ago side by side.
So a place liek this woudl be hard to rate. Many people live very high tech lives here there is a lot of internet connections everyone has broadband televisions and things like that but some work is done just by brute manpower. Hard to rate what the tech level is here.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Fairly answered Mssr. Madarin Dude! Thank you for the real-world insight.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:



Sigg,

Ooops! Check that blurb again!

The project on Thisbe is being handled by an imperial ministry with a megacorp as the contractor. I'm sure the good folk of Thisbe help in some ways; mopping floors, serving meals, getting crushed in machinery, etc., but they certainly aren't running the project.

Bill,

which version of the Spinward Marches mentions megacorp involvement in the Thisbe project?

It makes a lot of sense, such a project would require some pretty high tech gear, but it isn't mentioned in the blurb in CT Supplement 3:

The desert world of Thisbe has undertaken a long-term project to divert large numbers of frozen water and gas asteroids from the Thisben belt to the planetary surface; the intention is an improved atmosphere and hydrographics percentage.

 

[mike wightman]

Ahh, you're taking it from that excellent piece of Traveller retconning that is the Spinward Marches Campaign:

Thisbe (2539) is a desert world being terraformed by the megacorporation Sharurshid under contract from the Imperial Ministry of Conservation.

This begs the question, why does a ministry of conservation seek to change the environment of a whole planet? Not a definition of conservation I've ever come across

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Did an indigenous Somali organization provide his primary schooling or what it a 'mission school'? Where did he recieve his post-secondary schooling? Did any indigenous Somali institutions have anything to do with his education? His training? His certifications?

All of this is true, but you missed the point that we were both working in Papua New Guinea. He and I were both supervising local staff. They had done their training locally. The guy working for me had done a Masters degree in Maths. I haven't done a Masters in anything. He was technically better educated than I was. I was his boss because I was more experienced, not because I was better trained.

And, he was from the Highlands. His grandparents had, quite literally, lived in the Stone Age.

What PNG, a classic "lagging technology" state, lacks is infrastructure and capital. There are "law and order" issues there, but it's not even close to Somalia.

There is one interesting point which is actually relevant to Traveller. In PNG, land ownership is collective. That is, the land that belongs to a village belongs to the village, and not to individual residents. This is even true in Port Moresby, the capital. Various "economists" have argued that PNG would develop a stronger capitalist economy much faster if land was privatised. That means that land should become the property of a small number of wealthy members of each community, rather than used to feed, clothe and house the whole community.

This kind of change is may well be how TL increase is enabled, and could be used to explain why so many worlds have difficulty increasing their TLs. Literally, they have to violently impoverish the majority of their populations to gain access to the wealth necessary to develop.

Which is why megacorporations are so helpful in developing planetary economies. They don't care what happens to the peasants...

No, my Imperium is not particularly evil. Why do you ask?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Far Trader:

Are ye sure tisn't the 'Luminati present not luminaries?

I like yer selling at 'the right price/ tempting offer'--/me bows wickedly done, sir! :devil:

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
This begs the question, why does a ministry of conservation seek to change the environment of a whole planet? Not a definition of conservation I've ever come across

Sigg,

In a word - Politics.

Some Imperial big wheel(s) want the project to happen. Why? Delightfully, that's left up to we as GMs. The SMC authors have given us nice fat amber zone/adventure/campaign hook.

Let's see, I'll come up with six 'reasons' because that's an old amber zone tradition.

1 - It's a test bed for certain environmental improvement techniques that the megacorp or ministry will ultimately use to 'tweak' the climates of better worlds than Thisbe to a 'Tahitian Ideal' model; i.e. blue skies, white beaches, just enough surf, and comely native girls wearing nothing but flowers in their hair and bearing potent potables in frost covered glasses... (sorry, got off on a tangent there...)

2 - It's a promise to a now dead, long term, utterly loyal, Ducal House of Trin family retainer from Thisbe. Theodore a'Thisbe faithfully served three dukes and enthralled them all as children with his 'horror' stories about growing up on that blighted world. When 'Teddy' died, the current duke decided to honor his memory be starting the project. The fact that it will employ tens of thousands and dump quite a few MegaCrImps into the local subsector economy has nothing to do with it at all.

3 - As in 2 above, but Theodore a'Thisbe is blackmailing the Ducal House of Trin into sponsoring the project. After serving three dukes, he knows about every skeleton in every closet. He even knows things the current duke doesn't know. The project is at heart a sham, designed to look like the real thing while 'envoys' of the current duke beat the bushes for 'Teddy' and his memories.

4 - The project is the result of Sharurshid string-pulling at Capital. Sharurshid generally feels that it's 'share' of government projects Behind the Claw isn't as great as it should be, particularily when compared with the Imperial largess other megacorps slurp from the Marches' trough. When it was pointed that Sharurshid didn't really have anything to offer the Marches in the way of goods or services, a very old feasibility study from a long ago business acquisition was dredged up, dusted off, had it's numbers fiddled, and rammed through the appropriations process. The Thisbe Project is little more than a case of megacorp welfare.

5 - As in 4 above, but neither Thisbe, the duchy, or the sector feel the project is needed. The people of Thisbe believe this in very strongly. However, the project has been okayed at the Domain level (primarily as a trade off with several other parties involving fleet ration pricing, vocational educaton support programs, and moehair subsidies) so the project will go through. Officials from the duchy and sector are dragging thier feet, while Thisbe itself has begun to perform a little sabotage. A group of officials sent from Domain to ramrod the project are teariing their hair out. A few are even having second thoughts.

6 - The project is actually a cover for a combined IN/IISS project testing new methods for detecting and monitoring deep space ice bodies. While the IN and IISS are testing new equipment and techniques for Kuiper/Oort object denial, a few such objects are directed inward towards Thisbe to maintain the 'cover'.

How's that?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by alanb:
All of this is true, but you missed the point that we were both working in Papua New Guinea.

Alan,

I've worked in Irian. I've been an 'overseas' tech rep too. Where you two were working really doesn't matter because as soon as you, all the other 'outsiders', and all the people trained 'outside' leave - and you all will - the project will die. The locals cannot and will not be able to maintain it for any real length of time without outside intervention.

What's the line in that Paul Simon tune? Lasers in the jungle? I've seen lasers in the jungle, powerplants, satellite dishes, a whole host of technological objects in the jungle, prairie, forest, hills, and seaside. All imported, paid for, setup, trained on, and all slowly rot away because the locals couldn't cut it.

I was his boss because I was more experienced, not because I was better trained.

That makes perfect sense. Right man for the job and all that.

This kind of change is may well be how TL increase is enabled, and could be used to explain why so many worlds have difficulty increasing their TLs. Literally, they have to violently impoverish the majority of their populations to gain access to the wealth necessary to develop.

I strongly agree, there are winners and losers in any change. Progress hurts. Potty training does too. I have ancestors who lost their communal lands to sheep. It was horrible when it occured. It also made them as a people 'grow up'.

Instead of focussing on the possibility that someone might get hurt - and they will - it is better to focus on the eventual pay-off. I think we're all agreed that there is a substantial pay-off. Sometimes you must be cruel.

Which is why megacorporations are so helpful in developing planetary economies. They don't care what happens to the peasants...

Why should they? Was Ford worried about buggy whip makers? Was Stephenson worried about dray cart drivers? Roebling about ferrymen? It's a very old, very simple idea really, change or die. Change is going to happen so you better learn to live with it.

It now becomes a matter of how we help people through the inevitable changes and not a matter helping people avoid change altogether.

No, my Imperium is not particularly evil. Why do you ask?

Neither is mine. My Imperium is pragmatic however. The Amish and PNG highlanders are cute, several trillion people can't live like them though.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Sigg,

In a word - Politics.

Some Imperial big wheel(s) want the project to happen. Why? Delightfully, that's left up to we as GMs. The SMC authors have given us nice fat amber zone/adventure/campaign hook.

Let's see, I'll come up with six 'reasons'
<snip>
How's that?


Have fun,
Bill

Some excellent ideas for adventure there, thanks Bill

 

[Theo D Lite]

Wow! I should have checked back into this thread sooner. Some very fine thoughts. My original comment about migrating populations was intended to be a glib throw away line and not necessairily representative of the OTU, MTU or any other TU and I fully recognise that it would take some considerable time for the limited migration that can occur on tramp liners to actually depopulate an entire planet!

However some of the posts after mine have caused me to rethink my use of the TL statistic, or at the very least accept that my use of it in the past has been very superficial.

I rather like the idea of TL measuring the sustainable technology that a planet can maintain using it's own locally educated and locally recruited indigenous sophonts. As has been pointed out this does not preclude higher tech knowledge being present nor does it prevent higher tech kit being employed either by off world specialists or by suitably supported indigenous sophonts.

Indeed this has been a staple of many sci-fi texts. Off the top of my head I can think of one of the Deathworld(?) series by Harry Harrison, where the central character from a space faring community was stranded on a low tech world and used his knowledge of science and technology on the primitive world to rise to a position of influence and also organise a rescue. Another Harry Harrison (this time the first Stainless Steel Rat Prequel) had a bunch of high tech social scientists meddling in the affairs of a low tech back water dirt ball. Even William Gibson makes passing reference to the situation when he makes an almost sideline comment about high tech ICE used by corporations in the first world being outdated when the hackers penetrated it. This ICE does not become redundant but is purchased by third world banks or governments and continues in use. First world hackers equipped with the tools to penetrate this out dated protection easily strip vast assets from these countries which despite being poor when measured in GDP terms still present rich pickings when compared to an individuals wealth.

I accept that TL differences between near neighbours will exist, much as TL differences exist between neighbouring countries today, and I rather like the image portrayed by Mandarin Dude earlier of the farmer cycling with his hand harvested crop and using a mobile phone. However my problem lies in large TL differences.

As I intimated in my original post in my last CTU I artifically set TL on all but a select number of systems between a minimum and maximum to ensure that almost all systems were capable of independant star travel. This was for a reason, in the past systems had been colonised and gone on to a golden high tech era (ie much beyond TL15) before a collapse brought about fragmentation and isolation. Humanity recovered from this and rebuilt a star faring community (yes I know its not exactly original!).

Systems either have indigenous populations or are colonised. Colonised worlds will be colonised in the main by the most able of a systems people with the best their prevailing technology can provide. Therefore the colonised system will have a jump start on its TL, and unless it is deliberately intended that the colony should be dependant on the home world then it will have the ware with all to become self sufficient at or close to the TL of the original system.

Worlds that have an indigenous population will have to go through a more evolutionary process, not only for the dominant species to emerge but for the important aspects of history such as an industrial revolution (if applicable) to occur. Should such a world be contacted by a more advanced neighbour the odds are they will try to exploit the lower tech system taking advantage of natural resources, or cheap labour which can be used to outsource manufacturing processes as happens in the third world today.

The exposure of the low tech system to elements of the high tech capabilities and accoutrements will tend to bootstrap the tech level increase of the low tech world, and while not necessairly raching that of the high tech neighbour will tend to accellerate the natural progression of things resulting in a smaller TL gap.

OK so I've rambled on and it is not my intention to bore you all any longer. Let me just finsih by saying that what I have read here will require me to head off and do some thinking.

Thank you.