Tech Level-Progression and Governments

[Timerover51]

While going through the book, Technology in the Ancient World, by Henry Hodges, I came across the following statements by the author with respect to technological progress and also government effects on technological progress. The author is looking at the period from the Stone Age to about 400 AD, the breakup of the Roman Empire.

Nowhere was the rate of technological advance a steady, even, upward climb. Always one seems to be confronted with sudden bursts of technical innovation followed by long periods of virtual stagnation, to be succeeded by another burst followed again by a long dormant period.-page 283

One of the problems, as I see it, with Traveller 5, is the whole concept of Experimental, Prototype, and Early when it comes to technology development, meaning that an experimental unit can be built 3 tech level earlier than what is called a standard unit. Applied rigidly, this would make an experimental internal combustion engine possible in the Bronze Age at 3500 BC, and an experimental steam engine in the Stone Age. That simply does not happen in history. The time lapse from when the US first received from the British a cavity magnetron in September of 1940 to the time when the US was producing microwave radar sets by the thousands was 3 years.

Hodges second point is as follows.

Indeed, authoritarian governments aiming at stable social conditions appear to have been those under which there was the least technological advance.-page 283 . . .It may have been that the civil servants exercised far too rigid a control or did so in an unintelligent manner . . .-page284

Concerning the Harrapn Civilization in the Indus Valley, he has this to say:

In fact, one gets the feeling that here again the dead hand of the civil servant was in operation, such as was surmised during the declining years of Rome.-page 254

Hodges make clear that he has a low opinion of civil servants.

However, looking at the die modifiers for Tech Levels the only governments types with modifiers in Book 3, LBB, are Type 5-Feudal Technocracy with a +1, and Religious Dictatorships with a -2. If you apply some of Hodges ideas, which I will say that I agree with, then most of the governments should have modifiers, either positive or negative.

For negative modifiers, in Classic Traveller governments, I would have:

1 Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy: technology change may rock the boat, very strongly.

2. Captive Government: A colony might not have the reason for technology research, while a captive area might be prevented from any form of research. However, a colony might also be forced by its circumstances to develop new ideas, tools, or processes, so might go either way.

3. Civil Service Bureaucracy/Impersonal Bureaucracy: again, technological change may rock the boat, and force them to think.

4. Charismatic Dictator: said dictator may be buying his/her popularity by devoting available resources to keeping the masses happy, rather than looking to development. There is at least one good example of that currently.

5. Non-Charismatic Leader: see above comment, again a current example.

Against these, where the colony might be a toss up, one government type should be a bonus. That is Type 7, Balkanization, where competing governments may be working very hard to gain a technological edge over the rest of the planet. Type 2, Participating Democracy, and Type 4, Representative Democracy, should also be given some thought to a bonus.

 

[Drakon]

Very interesting post.

I would argue that there is a difference between form and substance. I think one CAN have, for example, a civil service bureaucracy that can be amenable to inovation and technical growth.

To use the classical terms Liberal and Conservative, in their original meanings, it depends a great deal what specifics Liberals want to change and what things Conservatives want to conserve. Either can be agreeable to advances in technology, or oppose technical progress for a variety of reasons.

I also think that the old adage about "might makes right" is completely backwards. Right Makes Might. This is easiest to see in technology, which is an outgrowth of scientific information and understanding, but applies to more cultural memes and ideas as well. The Allies got the atom bomb first, because they had a better understanding of nuclear physics, and utlizied scientists who had been rejected by the Axis. The Germans had an incorrect idea about "Juden Physics", because of that, they lost the race to the bomb.

While Hodge may be correct about human (terran) history, it does not mean it has to be that way. More study is needed on cultural memetics.

 

[Timerover51]

While Hodge may be correct about human (terran) history, it does not mean it has to be that way. More study is needed on cultural memetics.

Well, human history is all we have to work with. And for the most part, we are talking about human characters and human development.

 

[Drakon]

Well, human history is all we have to work with. And for the most part, we are talking about human characters and human development.

3,000 years into the future.

I guess I HOPE humanity has learned a something in all that time. If not Terrans, than maybe the Vilani or Syleans or...

 

[Enoki]

There are four major periods in human history with regard to technology:

Ancient: A lot of stuff is invented, but because there is no systematic means of retaining or spreading that information things get forgotten, re-invented, lost in time, that sort of thing. Technological progress is hit and miss but more hit than miss in the long run. TL 0 - 1

Renaissance: This is the period where the scientific method and printing press emerge. There is the beginning of a systematic retention of knowledge and for the first time a way to uniformly spread information and not lose it. TL 2 - 3

Industrial age: The application of systems to mechanical means along with the application of new energy sources. You get mass production and mass consumption. TL 4- 6

Electronics age: The invention of electricity then the means to use it to control machinery and information. Invention and application of knowledge can be done exponentially rather than arithmetically. TL 7 - ?

What would follow next... Got me. In game terms at TL 9 with the introduction of star travel, everything changes again.

 

[Condottiere]

What I got out of European and Chinese history, is that competing countries, rather than civilizations, tend to push innovation, whether technological or social, and usually reactionary in nature.

 

[Enoki]

What I got out of European and Chinese history, is that competing countries, rather than civilizations, tend to push innovation, whether technological or social, and usually reactionary in nature.

That or less than desirable conditions existing for a society. That is, they live in a swamp or there's other natural or predatory conditions like war that cause them to innovate. That comes from Toynbee (A Study of History for example.

 

[Drakon]

What would follow next... Got me. In game terms at TL 9 with the introduction of star travel, everything changes again.

From Bucky Fuller, the direction of technology is to do more and more with less and less. Less material, fewer people, lower power requirements. Bigger when bigger is better, smaller when smaller is.

It used to be that going to Mars was calculated to take a several months. Recently, NASA published a plan that, at least in theory, will make the trip in days.

One big danger is that it gives fewer people more capabilities. In the old days, if you wanted to conquer the world, you needed a very large army and quite a few swords. If you had a plan to do such, no matter how crazy it might be, it might take quite a lot of folks to carry it out. Any one of which might do something to prevent the completion. As technology progresses, the sanity of a plan becomes less relavant to whether it can be carried out successfully. Decisions and power, capabilities, get consentrated into the hands and minds of fewer people.

So whats next after TL 9 and starflight? Fewer and fewer people, less resources, faster flight times (Hop, Skip, Leap, whatever drive) and more and more capabilities in the hands of fewer and fewer people. And eventually some lunatic will misuse those capabilities and cause a lot of damage.

 

[Enoki]

From Bucky Fuller, the direction of technology is to do more and more with less and less. Less material, fewer people, lower power requirements. Bigger when bigger is better, smaller when smaller is.

I think that's true to an extent. Where it isn't is in craftsmanship and exclusive items. Handmade and custom made have a long history of desirability among those with money. I could see that being a big thing for many smaller systems in Traveller. For instance, I concocted the "Boutique worlds of the Glimmerdrift Reaches subsector. A series of feudal technocracies that specialize in custom products.

I could also see those with wealth being primarily investors in "stuff" that generates income in return. Sort of like modern 401K's or stock. You either pool your money with others or invest on your own to generate more income for yourself. Only the desperate or stupid work for a living at some menial job...

For the masses, automated mass production is fine as are for most consumer products.

If you were a rich person living in the Imperium would you want a mass produced air raft to drive around in or would you buy the equivalent of a Lamborghini that was hand made?

It used to be that going to Mars was calculated to take a several months. Recently, NASA published a plan that, at least in theory, will make the trip in days.

That is likely at some point.

One big danger is that it gives fewer people more capabilities. In the old days, if you wanted to conquer the world, you needed a very large army and quite a few swords. If you had a plan to do such, no matter how crazy it might be, it might take quite a lot of folks to carry it out. Any one of which might do something to prevent the completion. As technology progresses, the sanity of a plan becomes less relavant to whether it can be carried out successfully. Decisions and power, capabilities, get consentrated into the hands and minds of fewer people.

Actually, as technology improves, it becomes harder and harder to replicate or even understand by some individual. A radio or television of the 50's was something a person with some skill in electronics could test and repair. Giving my age away here, I remember days when there were tube testing machines in places like 7-11 and you could get replacements. Radio Shack originally sold electrical and electronic components. Today you can barely see individual components. Good luck testing a board for it being bad...

So whats next after TL 9 and starflight? Fewer and fewer people, less resources, faster flight times (Hop, Skip, Leap, whatever drive) and more and more capabilities in the hands of fewer and fewer people. And eventually some lunatic will misuse those capabilities and cause a lot of damage.

More importantly, those with the skills to operate and repair that technology will gain in value as will those with some sellable skill in making something truly custom for people. It may well be that in a Traveller-like universe the bulk of the masses are just cannon fodder for Imperial expansion and exploration. "You're available, expendable, and cheaper than using a robot..." the NCO tells you as you prepare to be dumped on some planet to make it safe for "Humanity."

"You failed your class on agriculture" the counselor tells some 17 year old. "The military has drafted you as a result. Your score on the mandatory entrance testing was poor so you'll probably be going to the infantry branch. I wish you luck..."

 

[aramis]

3,000 years into the future.

I guess I HOPE humanity has learned a something in all that time. If not Terrans, than maybe the Vilani or Syleans or...

Keep in mind: current real world history really amounts to about 7000 years (±500)... and anything before about 2500 years ago really isn't as much history as it is "attempted demythologizing the mytho-historical records and confirming with Archaeological research." Still, we have a pretty good grasp on about 6500-7500 years of recorded inter-cultural interactions.

3000 years is talking doubling the reliable history, and adding 50% overall...

And the common person mythologizes anything past about 500 years ago pretty heavily.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I think that just about any taxonomic (organizational) system has strong limitations and plenty of exceptions.

Still, the TL system is very cool and I wouldn't expect every polity/ race/ culture/ society/ civilization to progress through the system by rote, level by level. Differences in characteristics dictate different levels of technological advance. In other words, everyone is different.

One of my underlying and ongoing interests is to develop a TL system that can accommodate exotic technologies and not just a conventional progression of terrestrial-planetary machine-based research and technology.

For instance, biotech, how might that work? Wouldn't it have different milestones and way points compared to steam engines and fusion plants? I would think that it would.

Or in another instance, how might the technology of Jovionoids (gas-giant swelling, hydrogen-breathing, heavy gravity lifeforms) differ from that of a terrestrial species like Humans...

Or the technology of a mechanistic (machine) species? Could machine life evolve naturally? Would all of it be artificially created? What about other types of non-organic life?

The answers to those questions is the stuff of science fiction... And Traveller!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.