Terran Confederation/Solomani Imperium

[Elliot]

On the New Era Sourcebook post citizen Flynn has raised the issue of the groundwork for this sourcebook. I agree that it should tally where possible with the GURPS Aldebaran book, but not be constrained by it (I have to admit that I personally don't like the GURPS Traveller style, sorry guys, and objectively its a great product),

MJD have you any hints to through us as to how you think the Sol Imp/Terran confed will go?

My two main thoughts on this are:

1. How did Earth survive the Virus and build itself up again?

2. How can the Sol Imp be made convincing without becoming the comic fascists of old.

As to question 1. I have come up with a few suggestions:

a) Terra and its system was hit bad but was protected by a puppeteer or mother virus who associated Terra as the birth place of the virus life form (i,e the Interstellar Wars Milspec chip from which the Cymbeline lifeforms evolved - see Signal GK). This allowed the Terrans (who as former Imperials) to keep their heads when all around them were losing theirs.

b) The liberal pan sophontist Solomani led by Joshua Dahvin brought a Cymbeline life form back from the pre Virus visit to Cymbeline (for which see Survival Margin). This chap (or is it chip) protected Terra, as led by the pan sophontists, from the worst effects of virus (it still got hit bad, of course). Thus it could rebuild itself and its neighbours using museum technology (I think this is specifically stated in the TNE mk1 rulebook somewhere). I did this in my own TNE mk1 campaign of yore.

c) The same as above but without the Cymbeline chip. Although something has to be done about virus.

As to question 2 - the ideology has to be believable - I always modelled the Solomsni on T2K's New America as they were sinister but also believable.

 

[mike wightman]

This raises the good questions of what was the fate of the Cymbeline chips? Were they all wiped out or did some survive? Did the Solomani have any Cymbeline chips before or during the MT era?
What was the fate of the chip from the Signal GK adventure (my PCs sold the info to the Solomani but held onto the chip from the adventure)?
Will MJD answer these questions?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
This raises the good questions of what was the fate of the Cymbeline chips? Were they all wiped out or did some survive? Did the Solomani have any Cymbeline chips before or during the MT era?

I got the impression that most if not all of the Cymbeline chips were wiped out in a massive nuking of the highlands (this is mentioned in Survival Margin).

 

[mike wightman]

I got the impression that most if not all of the Cymbeline chips were wiped out in a massive nuking of the highlands (this is mentioned in Survival Margin).

Ah, but did any survive in the lowlands? How many had been taken off world? Did any other States get hold of Cymbeline chips?
After selling the info to the Solomani my PCs considered also selling it to the Hivers. Fortunately other events intervened

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Ah, but did any survive in the lowlands? How many had been taken off world? Did any other States get hold of Cymbeline chips?
After selling the info to the Solomani my PCs considered also selling it to the Hivers. Fortunately other events intervened

Again, the impression I get from SM is that there were no chips in the lowlands to start with, and they got nuked before anyone realised what could be done with them. Presumably the sole survivors were the ones in the black boxes in the labs and in the transponders. Whose descendants later became Virus.

All in all, a luvverly case of genocide, that few people would care about because no-body would empathise with a bunch of silicon chips... I bet at some point someone in the future of Traveller will look back on that era and go 'oh my god, what did we DO?!'

 

[mike wightman]

a luvverly case of genocide, that few people would care about because no-body would empathise with a bunch of silicon chips

Don't forget the millions of human inhabitants killed by the strike. How many more would die following the collapse?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> a luvverly case of genocide, that few people would care about because no-body would empathise with a bunch of silicon chips

Don't forget the millions of human inhabitants killed by the strike. How many more would die following the collapse? </font>[/QUOTE]It's on page 53 and 56 of SM, if anyone can't find the refs.

It says that 575,000 humans died in the attacks (which only amounted to 135 Megatons of nuclear blasts, but presumably that was in lots of kiloton munitions?), plus 5 million more from other effects of the blasts. Most of the human population survived though (about 5-6 million isn't a huge dent on he hundreds of millions that live there), because the blasts were aimed at the highlands rather than the lowland gorges where the atmosphere was (Cymbeline is an Atm F (Thin, Low) world).

It also states on pg 56 that every sentient chip was destroyed though.

After the attacks, Cymbeline's UWP was X9F48C9(E) (hrm. Not quite sure what a size 9 world is doing with a type F atmosphere, but never mind). According to the TNE collapse charts, the population code should drop by 3 (assume the pop multiplier is 5).

Tech level (step 2) should drop by either 3d6 or 2d6 depending on whether or not the TL dropped from E because of the attacks. Assuming the TL starts at E and drops by 9, that drops it all the way down to TL 5.

The Actual population multiplier (step 3)would be 3.

Step 4: The population is low enough to fall further still. TL drops by 1 more down to TL 4, and the pop multiplier drops to 1.5, so the final population is 150,000 survivors out of an original 500,000,000 population. Ouch.

Step 5 and 6: No starports or bases.

Step 7: Balkanisation number is 9+5-4= 10. Chances are you'd roll under that on a 2d6, so Cymbeline is likely to be balkanised. However, with 9 TLs lost, it's also likely that it'd be run by a TED instead.

Step 8: Law level, on average, will be A.

Step 9: Population doesn't increase.

So the final UWP for post-collapse Cymbeline is probably something like this:

Cymbeline X9F456A4

150,000 people scrabble an existence together in the lowland gorges of Cymbeline, while a TED rules over them all. Lovely

.

 

[Flynn]

Elliot, et al.,

Please bear in mind that the Rimward States can only be written to coincide with GT's Aldeberan book if that information is available to the author at the time they are writing this sourcebook. Let's hope that, by that point, the author (hopefully me, but it could be anyone with an imagination and the guts to give it a try) will be able to work with Jon Ziegler on this, if doing so doesn't violate any contractual obligations.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks for that work, Malenfant

.
Isn't there also a reference to a Solomani delegate visiting the chips on Cymbeline?
I would have thought some would have been taken to lowland labs to be studied and several taken off world altogether.
Thre was also something about a battle in orbit but I'll have to go and re-read Survival Margin to be certain (if I can find it, that is).

 

[Elliot]

Posted by Sigg Oddra

___

Isn't there also a reference to a Solomani delegate visiting the chips on Cymbeline?
___

Sigg that's the point I was making above (sorry I left my copy of SM at my aunts house and won't be able to pick it up until Sunday, so working from memory and no page nos.)

There is a very strong line of comment in the TNS for the Hard Times that the Solomani economics minister Joshua Dahvin was slowly taking power as a liberal Terran based pan sophontist faction. The logic of his faction was, if it came from Earth originally, it was within the ken of the Solomani. This included the Vargr, the Dolphins (presumably the Vilani and Zhodani on analogy with the Vargr) and the Cymbeline chips. Dahvin went to Cymbeline to 'sign' a concord with the Cymbeline lifeforms. Cymbeline got it on the chin a few months later (hence a red herring that the Solomani did was laid in the TNS at the time).

Dahvins visit to Cymbeline and his return to Terra seems to me to be a possible canon based starting point for the TNE 1248 Terran Confederation. To my knowledge MJD hasn't commented on the matter, so I am only speculating (based on my own TNE campaign after I got p****d off with the Star Vikings), but it seems to me that the Dahvinist faction of the Solomani as disclosed in SM are ripe to be the source of the new Terran Confederation.

The fact that Terra according to the old TD article (I ignore the crappy GURPS write up in Rim of Fire) was populated by other alien races and was long time Imperial would add to the liberalisation.

Of course, a Cymbeline chip travelling with Dahvin to Terra is not necessary to this story, but it does allow for Terra to have an extra front line defence against Virus.

Given that Terra is the source of the hateful humans, you would thing that the Vampires would make a detour to drop a few nukes on the earthlings unless something was there to stop them. That is why I think Earth's survival needs to be though out.

 

[mike wightman]

Sigg that's the point I was making above

Doh! Sorry Elliot .

I didn't think my memory was that good. I forgot to read the top of the thread before making that last post.

Too much egg-nog and the like

I like your reasoning for Earth's survival by the way

.

 

[mike wightman]

Just to go massively off topic for a moment, what do you think happened when Virus reached Sabmiqys (that's the planet populated by TL17 AI androids)?

And for that matter, what do you think happened to AB-101?

 

[kafka47]

AB 101 died some time in the Rebellion era according to Joe's last editorial. They brought him back for one last MegaTraveller romp at a convention in which his final fate was to die to save the life of the doctor and his companions.

When the virus hit Sab., it probably took time to adapt to the local ecology then moved on and conquered but in doing so produced a more xenophobic strain. Although, MJD denies it, it must some how be linked to the Dominate...just have to figure out how...

 

[Flynn]

Last I heard, the official word (from Loren, I think, among others) on Virus versus the Sabmiqys is that the Sabmiqys software was too sophisticated for the Virus, and they easily slapped it around and kept it from infesting themselves or their society. Much as the Sabmiqys resisted visitation from interstellar organic civilizations until the early 600s, I understand that they resisted Virus as easily.

We are talking about a newly formed TL15 Low AI computer virus versus several thousand full-fledged TL17+ High AI personalities with centuries of experience apiece. One must keep a perspective on such things.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[kafka47]

I might be wrong, but I think the take that MJD has on the virus, is that it has transcended its TL F beginnings and become TL G and I am sure with all the protypes running around that they could have evolved even further.

I seem to remember MJD aknowledging that psionics and the virus have something in common.

Remember, the virus was incubated in the Ommicron with TL of at least G. Maybe, the virus is the byproduct of some captured Sabmiqys software with the Cybrene chip with Hiver tinkering...

 

[Flynn]

There's a Challenge article that describes the Imperial interaction with the Sabmiqys. That suggestion does not fit with that article, nor my perceptions of them.

I fail to see how a computer virus less than 30 years in its construction, TL15 to maybe early TL16, can defeat the software protections of late TL17 software that has existed for centuries and has dealt with TL17 software intrusions. Perhaps it is my failings, but it seems to me like you're describing the equivalent of trying to crack a network of Cray supercomputers with a Commodore 64.

I don't mean to put Virus in the role of a Low Level AI, which it is by the tech charts of Traveller, but when you look at it game-mechanically... whatever Virus did, it's two steps lower on the evolutionary table from the Sabmiqys. Loren, et al., were pretty clear when they said that Virus didn't touch the Sabmiqys, and I feel comfortable in saying that I agree with that.

Crays versus a Commodore 64, remember?

I just don't think Traveller canon would support such a flight of fancy. YMMV. (Besides, I think that there should be some limits to what the Virus can do. If technology and other, superior AI software can't do it, then there's no point in the intellectual exercise of having Tech Levels for Computer/Robotic technology.)

My two credits, anyway,
Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

I fail to see how a computer virus less than 30 years in its construction, TL15 to maybe early TL16, can defeat the software protections of late TL17 software

It definitely states in Survival Margin thatResearch Station Omicron scientists were developing a TL16/17 computer system, which later proved to be Virus. I'd go with TL17 so Virus shouldn't have a TL disadvantage versus Sabmiqys.

What should protect the androids of Sabmiqys is the high level of organic synaptic processing in their "brains". Virus only has an effect on inorganic computer hardware IIRC.

And don't forget that there are still a lot of Traveller fans out there who fail to see how Virus could work in the first place (personaly I don't have a problem with it, if you can accept teleporting death commandos...)

I just don't think Traveller canon would support such a flight of fancy.

Why not, it has in the past and probably will again in the future

 

[Flynn]

Sigg,

Upon reviewing Survival Margin, I see that you are correct in the mentioning of researchers working on a TL 16-17 artificially intelligent computer system when they discovered in 1128 the existence of a terrifyingly dangerous research program, that wouldn't be complete for another three to five years. (Survival Margin, pg 72)

I concede the difference in TL point. (Good reference, there, by the way.)

I still stand by the word as given by Loren in regards to the Sabmiqys and Virus, however. Unfortunately, I am not able to produce a reference post from the TML at the moment for your review. My apologies for that lack. Should I find it, I will post it for your review. Whether you lend credence to their authority on the matter or not, that's a different story, of course.

BTW, Joe Fugate was the one to expand upon the Sabmiqys in both 101 Robots and Challenge magazine (#28, pg 31), and might have an answer in regards to his creation. There's a post somewhere on the COTI boards about gathering a list of questions to ask him. This might be something to get his opinion on.

Learning Something New Everyday,
Flynn

 

[Elliot]

I would limit virus' power against the Sab androids for the reason Flynn has given. I would look for ways to limit virus generally, otherwise its just too damn powerful.

If a Cymbeline chip or two did survive what would be the effect of Virus attempting to take it over. I believe the answer lies in Signal GK - its a battle of eat or be eaten.

The same must be true of the Vampire Fleets 'good' puppeteers such as Sandman (who,
it is hinted, is not the only one of his kind).

 

[mike wightman]

I've just re-read Vampire Fleets (I love holidays) and it states on page 8 that "Lucan's strike was not completely successful."
There we are, some of the little fellas did survive.
And now for the bad news "A surviving population of silicon-based chip life on Cymbeline now contains a form of Virus,..."