Terran Confederation/Solomani Imperium

[Erik Boielle]

Well, hey, I don't think its any more likly than a lot of things in traveller.

I do think its kinda cool, and a tenuous explanation is all i need.

That said, I feel it is important to comment that the Virus Entities we know and love could have better computer security skillz than anyone else in know space.

Supergenius level, really very much smarter than you hackers each and every one.

All descended from the best of trillions of generations of a species of beings whose brains are organised almost perfectly for this sort of work.

And even then it was an exceptional individual.

In a world where most programs are based on thousands of years of accumulated self organising code, with all the exploit potential therein.

--

Hey, the Virus, the Rebellion/Collapse/Star Vikings thing parts are the bit I like in Traveller!

 

[savage]

Kaladorn,
I have to agree with Larsen on this one. He put it very well.

I would also suggest that those high tech engineers and scientists developed Virus too. And that they are no less infallible than the security organizations of 2001 or military intelligence of the 1940s.

It would be logical to assume that some systems would be capable of defending themselves from Virus (I did this in my campaign). On the other hand, if everyone (those scientists and leaders) were concentrating on a Rebellion that assumed no doomsday weapons, how would they know what they're defending from?

Savage

 

[Anthony]

The big problem with Virus has always been that it was able to infect systems which had no reason to be programmable, let alone capable of running Virus. It was able to infect systems which it had no contact with. It was able to infect systems running unfamiliar operating systems.

All these argue for a somewhat exotic form of transmission. The original Cymbeline entities were in fact life-forms that lived on silicon, not a virus at all, so you can possibly account for a lot of Virus by assuming a spore-state transmission -- note that it no longer matters whether the chip is programmable or capable of running an AI, since the chip is just acting as a base for a life-form, not as the actual hardware running the life-form. Unfortunately, there are also lots of ways to stop spores from spreading, so we have to assume some magical way of infection at a distance. The Traveller form of 'magic' is psionics, so personally I assume that Virus is psionic.

 

[MJD]

Cymbelline chips are noted in canon as being able to use a crude form of telekinesis

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by MJD:
Cymbelline chips are noted in canon as being able to use a crude form of telekinesis

Are you sure? There's references to them being able to move themselves (in raw, small chip form) by manipulating electrical currents to generate magnetic fields. That's not telekenesis though.

 

[Erik Boielle]

But, you see, making the Virus a psionic dodad is, for me, a change on a level with making the jump drive or anti/artificial gravity and reactionless drives work on psionic principles.

I mean, they are magic to right?

But its a different kind of magic, more like an X-Wing fighter than a Jedi Mind Trick.

Totally different feel see.

--

Incidentally, my mutiform virus theory, of which spores are no doubt another, comes about becuase the people who wrote the books didn't seem to have a clear idea of what it was either, and the best way, I think, to reconcile the vague descriptions is to assume they are all right.

And that the Virus is smarter than you. Those spores carry laser cutters, you know.

 

[mike wightman]

Signal GK points out how small these chips are and that they have two different ways of moving about.
" Some accumulate electric charges and use them to levitate themselves across short distances. Others have developed ways to steer and maneuver using these same charges while riding currents of volcanic gases."
Static electricity, not telekinesis .

Still have to read through SM again, perhaps the telekinesis reference is there.

 

[Whipsnade]

MJD informed us:

"Cymbelline chips are noted in canon as being able to use a crude form of telekinesis."


Sir,

Chapter and verse please. I have Signal GK in front of me and no telekinesis to be found. They use static electrical charges to surf volcanic gasses.

Is telekinesis mentioned somewhere in TNE?


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[notagoodusername]

The fact that electromagnetic fields in psionic helmets inhibit telepathy sugests that psionics are a field of some sort. The extention from the static electricity mentioned to psionics is not wholely unreasonable, especially when you add sentience to the equation.

Shane

 

[mike wightman]

I can only remember reading that the psionic shield helmet protects against Telepathy. I can't remember a reference to any other psionic discipline which has rules for electromagnetic interference. I could be wrong, though.
Does this mean Virus is being thought of as a psionic, energy field type being when in software form or that a Viral computer has psionic abilities to explain its reproductive capabilities?

 

[Whipsnade]

Shane Mclean wrote:

"The fact that electromagnetic fields in psionic helmets inhibit telepathy sugests that psionics are a field of some sort."


Mr. Mclean,

Simply because electromagnetic fields can interfere with psionic processes doens't mean that psionics are in anyway electromagnetic is nature. An electromagnetic coil can effect my wholly un-electric, spring-driven wrist watch.

Also, I know of no operational description of psionic shield helmets. Simply because they use batteries doesn't mean they project an E-M field. My favorite propeller beanie uses batteries without projecting an E-M field.

TNE's Regency Sourcebook did address Imperial psionic research efforts, especially the attempts to creat artifical psionics through electronic means. RSB went to describe the Imperial efforts using ECM/ECCM parallels, but that was just so that the results of Imperial psionic research could be more easily grapsed and not because psionics was in anyway electromagnetic in nature.

"The extention from the static electricity mentioned to psionics is not wholely unreasonable, especially when you add sentience to the equation."

Nonsense. It is a wholly unproven and unwarranted assumption with no basis in canon. No where in any TNE products is Virus even hinted as having a a psionic potential. Information about those Viral ancestors, the Cymbeline chips, doesn't hint at that either. We are supposed to build on canon, not invent it.

As for your assertion that sentience somehow figures into this psionic potential, may I remind you of the non-psionic Hivers? Until Dave Nilsen introduced the extremely rare Dreamers, that sentient species had no known psionic potential.

Furthermore, if M:1248's discussion of Virus rests on the idea that Virus is psionic, that product will be consigned by Our Olde Hobby to the same dustbin that holds Behind the Claw.

I have been torn over whether to pay to join the M:1248 playtest or not. Now, I am even more worried. As Imperium Game's wretched T4 efforts proved, there are playtests and then there are paytests. Some playtests involve an actual give and take between author and testers with concepts and ideas measured and, in some cases, found wanting then replaced. Some other playtests are little more than manual spelling and grammar checks with input neither desired or listened to. I've been in playtests of both types; mostly for wargames, and the latter type is immensely frustrating and ultimately futile.

This leads directly to my next question. To all of you who have joined the M:1248 playtest; Have any of your ideas and/or concerns been addressed in a manner you find satisfactory? I am not suggesting that every change you suggested need be adopted, rather were the reasons for not adopting that change explained to your satisfaction?

I hold the greatest hopes for M:1248 and have done so ever since Mr. Dougherty first announced it on the TML. It is because of those hopes that I am now uneasy.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[MJD]

Artificial psionics is noted in RSB

 

[MJD]

Out of interest, can anyone give me a quick reume of how organic brains make new neural pathways?

 

[MJD]

Larsen, can you please explain Virus to me? As you see it? `Ithink we have very different viewpoints here.

 

[MJD]

"Chapter and verse please"

No.

I do not respond to demands.

 

[MJD]

Survival Marguin makes refernce to chips that can generate electromagnetic fields to levitate short distances.

I know of no means by which a piece of silicon with no external power source can generate enough lift this way. The phenomenon of psionic telekinesis, however, seems to invilve a simialr defiance of normal physical laws and conservation of energy.

There may be a connection.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Shane Mclean wrote:

"The fact that electromagnetic fields in psionic helmets inhibit telepathy sugests that psionics are a field of some sort."


Mr. Mclean,

Simply because electromagnetic fields can interfere with psionic processes doens't mean that psionics are in anyway electromagnetic is nature. An electromagnetic coil can effect my wholly un-electric, spring-driven wrist watch.

Also, I know of no operational description of psionic shield helmets. Simply because they use batteries doesn't mean they project an E-M field. My favorite propeller beanie uses batteries without projecting an E-M field.

TNE's Regency Sourcebook did address Imperial psionic research efforts, especially the attempts to creat artifical psionics through electronic means. RSB went to describe the Imperial efforts using ECM/ECCM parallels, but that was just so that the results of Imperial psionic research could be more easily grapsed and not because psionics was in anyway electromagnetic in nature.

"The extention from the static electricity mentioned to psionics is not wholely unreasonable, especially when you add sentience to the equation."

Nonsense. It is a wholly unproven and unwarranted assumption with no basis in canon. No where in any TNE products is Virus even hinted as having a a psionic potential. Information about those Viral ancestors, the Cymbeline chips, doesn't hint at that either. We are supposed to build on canon, not invent it.

Well, firstly TNE's rulebook tells us that some forms of electromagnetic fields interfere with psionics. Thus resistance organisations on psionically dominated worlds often have their meetings by power generators and the like.

Spoiler space for TNE's _Smash & Grab_ [for those that still care]
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Secondly, "Outside Influences" in _Smash & Grab_ has a psionic Virus-infected computer. Just how canon an adventure is is debateable, but there it is in black and white, copyright 1994.

 

[Erik Boielle]

00000Secondly, "Outside Influences" in _Smash & Grab_ has a psionic Virus-infected computer. Just how canon an adventure is is debateable, but there it is in black and white, copyright 1994.00000

Stone me! Must have blocked it out.

Course, it needed lots of time in research and some additional hardware to create an analog of psionics.

Thats not psionics, thats Tempest for people!

 

[MJD]

Virus can also cut new silcon pathways by some means. How? perhaps the method is akin to something that we might recognise as a form of electronic telekinesis.

If indeed the Traveller community cannot stomach a Virus that seems to be similar in some ways to a psionic entity (and after all ,Traveller has SUCH clear information on how both psionics and Virus work) then indeed 1248 may be consigned to the same dustbin as contains Behind the Claw.

Which I also wrote.

Just a little note here: TRaveller canon has big holes in it, large areas of vagueness and some contradictions too. I am not in the habit of justifying my every sentence with 'chapter and verse' canon quotes. I do not respond to anything phrased as a demand - as noted in anotehr thread some weeks ago.

Anything that attempts to build on prior informaiton in some way involves making up new canon. The question is, does the end product have sufficient intenral consistency and compaitbility wth prior information that it is acceptable to Traveller gamers...?

The purpose of the playtest is to catch glaring errors (one really good one already got caught!).. feedback is thus important.

However, I have no intention of submitting to an inquisition.

Touchy? Me? Yes. I have had some very nasty personal mails, orders to desist, demands to submit myself to some self-appointed court of Traveller canon, the occasional gratuitous slam, and of course the death threats.

So sometimes I feel the need to rant a bit. Like now.

 

[Erik Boielle]

Originally posted by MJD:
Out of interest, can anyone give me a quick reume of how organic brains make new neural pathways?

From

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0254.html?printable=1

A typical neuron receives information from hundreds or thousands of dendritic branches. Each of these inputs reflects either a datum of sensory input or the judgment of another neuron. Essentially, the neuron waits until the sum of its weighted inputs exceeds its characteristic threshold level, at which point its electrical potential explodes by sending an action potential down its axon. It thus summarizes these hundreds or thousands of analog (continuously variable) values into its own judgment, usually expressed as a single bit of information (yes or no). Each layer of neural processing exhibits the ability to extract increasingly abstract levels of information. In visual processing, for example, David Hubel and Tanten Diesel of the Harvard Medical School have discovered specialized cells that are adjacent to the retinal photoreceptor "cone" cells that are "wired" to detect "edges" in visual images. These in turn are summarized by the next layer of neurons that detect lines and curves in certain orientations. After several dozen more layers of abstraction, there are neurons that respond to the percept of particular faces.

Key to this process is the concept of feedback, without which a net of neurons would be unable to learn. The relative strength of each synapse may be increased or decreased to better reflect the desired response. There appear to be specific modulatory neurons that facilitate this process. There are a variety of neural learning techniques that have been hyped, and the exact mechanisms involved is an area of particularly intense contemporary research. Regardless of the means, however, the performance of each neuron is constantly being monitored, and the synaptic strengths are continually readjusted to improve the overall performance of each layer of the network. Neurons can also grow new dendritic and axon branches and create new synapses with other neurons. You may be doing this right now as you read this month's Futurecast.

While the electrochemical implementation of the neural process is complex, the basic computational paradigm is simple and surprisingly powerfuL In essence, a neuron takes the outputs of other neurons, weights each of these values according to a set of changing synaptic weights, takes the sum of these weighted values, and then compares the sum to a threshold value. It then communicates its fundamentally yes or no judgment to other neurons. Periodically, the synaptic weights are adjusted to improve the ability of a net of neurons to perform their intended function. The output of each neuron is, therefore, a very simple summary of its inputs. Through elaborate timed cascades and hierarchies of such simplification functions, percepts and concepts are realized and decisions made.

--

So, er, cells grow and the weighting of inputs to the neuron get changed by feedback.