• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Terran Confederation/Solomani Imperium

I would look for ways to limit virus generally, otherwise its just too damn powerful.
Emm, wasn't that the whole point of the Virus in the first place, it is all powerful ;) .

It states in CT LBB 8 Robots that all Hiver robot brains are TL16. Their r&d robots are pushing TL17. They were smashed by Virus until they managed to tame it (and use it themselves).
The same must be true of the Vampire Fleets 'good' puppeteers such as Sandman (who, it is hinted, is not the only one of his kind).
Vampire Fleets mentions, in the epilogue to the final adventure, that the RC encounters more intelligent friendly machines as they become increasingly common. They become more common for a couple of reasons:
the planet Promise is liberated along with the many robotic offspring of Sandman;
the RC deliberately infects ship computers with Sandman offspring to create "AI crewmembers"(although self aware ships is probably a better description);
the peacemaker strain of Virus is the most powerful in Virus v Virus electronic warfare.

By the way, if Virus began as a TL17 low AI program (taken from LBB 8) don't you think it reasonable that fully stable and self aware entities like Sandman should be re-classified as TL18 High AI programs/lifeforms?

Which brings me back to Sabmiqys. The TL17 androids were built and haven't evolved or changed since their creators died out. Their military, energy and communications tech was only TL15, while their space travel TL was only 9. The Challenge article doesn't mention any of it being upgraded.

Virus, on the otherhand, is constantly mutating and evolving. As I said earlier, unless synaptic processing offers some defence against Virus then I can't see any reasonable explanation of how Sabmiqys could hold out against Virus. I suppose you could treat it like a Virus versus Virus electronic combat but militarily superior Virus would be able to drop rocks all day.

I would just hope those Virus infected androids maintained their distrust of space
file_23.gif
.
 
Virus is independent of TL, except in terms of extreme hardware limitations. A human mind is not limited by the TL0 brain... (poor analogy but I'll go with it). A Viral Entity is a person, a mind, not a piece of hardware running some software.

Just the same as you and I are not organic hardware running a program. At least, I have to believe we're more than this...
 
MJD,

Would you be so kind as to elabourate on the above comment.
;) ;)
I thought that canon stated the virus was a virliant software program gone amok. Now, given that our understanding of software is going to be different than what exists in the Imperial age, which it would seem are like long chains of ammino acids. Carrying information but largely independent

it would stand to reason that the virus is a new form of life reproducing itself like DNA...as the strains mutate they become more and more complex. Thus, not only giving a personality or identity but something greater...am I warm or stone cold? :confused: :confused:
 
00000Just the same as you and I are not organic hardware running a program. At least, I have to believe we're more than this...00000

Hippy!

But dude, really, if you do that wrong it could totally midichlorian the Virus.

Maybe best if the virus just works like the jump drive eh?
 
For reasons I don't feel the need to go into, I'd be pleased if nobody calls me a hippy again.

As to Virus as a entity, it's fairly simple - a Viral entitiy is a mind, constrabtly evolving. It's more than a piece of software in the same way that humans are not merely expert systems operating an organic robot.

Virus was concenved as AI software. Somehow it made the jump to full sentience and self-awareness.
 
Virus was concenved as AI software. Somehow it made the jump to full sentience and self-awareness.
Ahh, so what your saying is that robots and androids like AB-101 and Sabmiqys are AI but non-sentient (and therefore the 3I was correct not to give them rights as living beings ;) ). Whereas the Cymbeline Chips and Virus are a silicon/software (electronic?) based lifeform which have the ability to use inorganic computer systems as a habitat.
It's more than a piece of software in the same way that humans are not merely expert systems operating an organic robot.
Only if you believe in a spirit or soul ;) , otherwise your desciption of a human would be considered quite accurate by many scientists.
A human mind is not limited by the TL0 brain...(poor analogy but I'll go with it).
What TL in Traveller is required to clone or vat grow a brain from molecular components and then implant it in a body?
Just the same as you and I are not organic hardware running a program. At least, I have to believe we're more than this...
I'm happy to say that I share that view, but, as I said earlier, many do not.
 
00000For reasons I don't feel the need to go into, I'd be pleased if nobody calls me a hippy again.00000

Big Hug!

Honestly Mr D, does it help to imagine a large (but with the physique of a runner) waving his arms and talking animatedly at this end?

--

I examine the issue as being one of we are programs running on dedicated organic hardware.

But with no just.

So in the same way that it isn't a shame that the sun isn't the chariots of the gods being pushed across the sky by a dung beatle, but is instead just an enormous ball of fusing gas, and one of many. I say, what the hell do you mean Just!

The feeling of being you is really rather amazing not matter where it comes from.

This is very close to being a religious view. I have this vague impression it might be well shared by people who like spaceships, but I havent actually done a poll or anything, but like, it might be.

Hence, any mention of Virus being special because it has a soul* reminds me of that episode of star trek the next generation where they have this crystal thats glowing and ask the computer why is this glowing and the computer suggests that in the absence of anything physical making it glow the only explanation must be Life! and I sigh deeply. As if the interlocking physical processes that allow us to get up and walk around and do stuff and shit and think arn't anything special (ignoring the more obvious missunderstanding of Why Living Things Glow and reaching behind it), especially seeing as how they might not have been designed but instead just kinda happened.

*I've got a chip! say our lesser computers of today
 
Maybe I just have the wrong view of the Cymbelene chips, but I thought the Signal GK adventure portrayed the Intelligent chips as a living biological "creature" based on a silicone body. They were searching for naturally occuring semi conductor chips and inadvertantly detected a signal, and the nature of the living chip.

"Castrated" (for lack of a better description) versions of the chip were used in the transponder and the "virus" was just a way to "make these chips reproduce", with orders to copy themselves and self destruct. The now active chips reproduced in whatever sytem was available (if it had silicone that the chip could write itself into, hence no computers below TL10, silicone incompatability) They picked up peices of computer code from the system they "burned/wrote" themselve into an some began to mutate into the various strains of "Virus"

In many ways, virus is both a computer code and a living creature.

Of course maybe I'm wrong
 
Originally posted by MJD:
Just the same as you and I are not organic hardware running a program. At least, I have to believe we're more than this...
MJD, like your appreciation of a good uisge beatha, that's just an interesting aspect of your program!


file_21.gif
file_22.gif
:D
 
Originally posted by MJD:
As to Virus as a entity, it's fairly simple - a Viral entitiy is a mind, constrabtly evolving. It's more than a piece of software in the same way that humans are not merely expert systems operating an organic robot.
While that's a debatable claim in real life, there's certainly evidence of minds being special in Traveller; most obviously, psionic ability seems to be tied to minds.

Can virus be psionically active?
 
Can virus be psionically active?
Good question
file_23.gif
.
How else can one silicon "mind" force another silicon "mind" to burn out its own circuits and remake them in the assailant's image? Mind control equals psionics IMHO.
How does a silicon "mind" burn its circuit pattern onto a chip that doesn't have this ability in the first place (remember Virus can effect any computer eventually, not just ones with Cymbeline chips in)?
 
I would argue that the high tech computers of traveller rely to a great extent on burning reconfigurable circuits on the fly for operation.

The Virus can subvert these mechanisms, and so copy itself physically into the target system.

However, as Virus is a weapon designed by man which utlises certain techniques learned by studying the cymbaline sapient cicuits rather than a cymbeline chip, it has a few more tricks up it sleeve.

Virus also has a software form, which it can adopt when attempting to infect fast but not reconfigurable systems. In these forms it sends a compressed verion of the data required to recreate the hardware Virus form should a better system become available - This is the infamous Virus Egg.

Even lowerer than that, it has to resort to tailored nonsapient children.

For my computer here thats 120 GB of TL 16+ expert system.

You never know - It might even be able to talk to you, to a certain extent.

Simpler systems get less capable, but still TL16+, tailored programs. As an exceptionally smart computer security expert in its own right, Virus is very good at writing these.

For mechanical systems, it will need robots or human slaves to mechanically reconfigure the mechanisms.

:)

--

I argue this because I don't like the idea of a psionic Virus.
 
I argue this because I don't like the idea of a psionic Virus.
For what it's worth neither do I ;) and I like the idea of embedded configurable circuits, consider it borrowed.
So the Virus "software version" is beamed across by a communications device (meson Viruses, anyone?) where it finds either a Deyo chip to subvert or an embedded configurable circuit to re-configure as its egg.
So should there be low tech computers which don't have these ECCs which are Virus resistant up until a Viral chip is placed in direct contact and can etch itself the way the Cymbeline chip does?
 
Erik/Sigg - I think this discussion viz how Virus works must be right.

Which in many ways takes us back to Combineharvester the Dulinor Slayer. Why would a combine have a chip in it that can be affected by virus? Can an C21st Terran car be infected? My take on that question is that trade in the 3I is pretty much dominated by TL15 Megacorps. So (say) GsBAG make a TL7 design combineharvester that is 'backward engineered' to make it more cheap and efficient than a true TL7 machine but capable of being manufactured and maintained at TL7.

Like GM crops or patent pharmaceuticals today, however, GSbAG want to protect their IP so to make the machine operate the local manufacturer has to buy a central control chip (TL15) from GSbAG to make the thing work. That way GSbAG keep their market without pirates making copies (coz they can't as they don't have TL15 computer factories).

Thus, when Virus comes it has an already made bed to lie in.
 
Elliot mused:

"Which in many ways takes us back to Combine harvester the Dulinor Slayer. Why would a combine have a chip in it that can be affected by virus?"


Mr. Elliot,

For many of the same reasons your coffee maker has more computing power than the Apollo Lunar Lander.

Chips are cheap because manufacturers only make them in a few 'flavors'. No one is going to invest roughly 1 billion USD on a chip production line that only supplies the coffee maker market. Instead, chip makers build one or two varieties for the non-computer market and chip users are presented with a Hobson's Choice; they can have whatever chip they want so long as it is this one. Most chips are used in applications far 'beneath' their abilities; your coffee maker's chip have more computing power than the LEM but only a fraction is used to monitor time, temperature, and so forth.

It's cheaper in the long run for the coffee maker makers to buy more chip than they actually need, just as it cheaper in the long run for chip makers to build more chip than 99% of their customers need.

"Why would a combine have a chip in it that can be affected by virus?"

Why would a 1999 coffee maker have more computing power than the 1969 LEM? Simple, the economics of production.

"Can an C21st Terran car be infected?"

Sure, why not? Many engine functions are now handled by a chip so Virus could start the car, engage gears, race the engine up to 200kph, and so forth. What Virus couldn't do in a 21st Century car is steer or laugh at the occupants.

"My take on that question is that trade in the 3I is pretty much dominated by TL15 Megacorps. So (say) GsBAG make a TL7 design combine harvester that is 'backward engineered' to make it more cheap and efficient than a true TL7 machine but capable of being manufactured and maintained at TL7."

Yes, that's another reason. We can 'backward engineer' many items to lower tech levels; the TL0 sand, water and clay pots 'fridge' is a good example.

"Like GM crops or patent pharmaceuticals today, however, GSbAG want to protect their IP so to make the machine operate the local manufacturer has to buy a central control chip (TL15) from GSbAG to make the thing work. That way GSbAG keep their market without pirates making copies (coz they can't as they don't have TL15 computer factories)."

That could be the case on some worlds; a TL15 chip 'key' is required to operate the nominally TL7 device. However, I believe a more prosaic and less 'megacorps = evil' reason will operate on most planets. Just the economics of production that allow your coffee maker to have more potential computing power than the Apollo LEM, TL7 machinery producers on backwater worlds may install 'more' chip than they 'need' in order to offer additional features to their customers.

That TL7 combine may sport a little, TL15 black box that boosts fuel efficiency, lengthens engine life, allows simple courses to be plotted, test soil conditions, picks up and remembers favorite radio channels, and a performs a host of other 'nice to have' functions all accessed through a TL7 interface. The combine could still run without it, but the TL15 chip sure does make the job less trouble.

Thus, the Dulinor Thresher could have monitored radio comms via its reciever, used other embedded sensors to deduce that Dullie was present, started itself, and run the rat bastard over.

Of course, Virus in the combine may have just awakened and was out to kill humans with Dullie simply part of a crowd that met that criteria. IIRC, Dullie was addressing a gathering of farmers; whose fields his warship had pancaked in, when the combine lurched forward. Everyone else scattered while Dulinor stood his ground. He either thought it was an attempt to frighten him or (my pet theory) grasped at the chance to commit suicide.(1)

"... it has an already made bed to lie in."

Yes, but not through specific megacorp trade machinations; i.e. 'chip keys', but by the economics of production; i.e. chips are cheap, let's use them.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - Dulinor's actions from the very beginning exhibit a weakness on his part, almost as if he had dreamed the whole Assassination up while shying away from even examining the consequences of it. Dulinor bugged out of Sylea after a decidely minor hiccup in his plans. He blanched at the power politics necessary to keep his Federation together. He flinched again and again during the cruise of the Coronation Fleet.

Dulinor was keen to talk about and dream about playing the game. However, after seeing the game begin and after playing for awhile, he didn't know if the game was worth the candle.
 
Dear Larsen - thy comments ring true and my post stands modified -

I have to say I personally see nothing wrong with modern companies putting their signatures into things to protect their R&D investment. I assume that the future will see more of this. I see nothing neferious, evil or wrong with it, they have to make a profit - that is a company's principal object after all.

I do take your point, however. I don't see any contradiction (or indeed a tremendous distinction in a silicon based economy)between economies of production and protection and protection of R&D investment (aka IP).

The point about the car virus is a) virus needs a way in - modern chips need physical wires to be contactable. This tends to stop things where the outside world cant communicate with the chip from being infected (GPS is a possible way in but only if it is connected to the engine chip). Hence toasters dont turn on their users. Further more, and as you say, to be able to automatically drive is an important point for virus. So C21 terran cars are probably not going to cause much trouble unless radio controlled and infected at the factory.
 
Most chips are used in applications far 'beneath' their abilities; your coffee maker's chip have more computing power than the LEM but only a fraction is used to monitor time, temperature, and so forth.
makes for a good hijack game scenario, yes?
 
Elliot wrote:

"thy comments ring true and my post stands modified"


Mr. Elliot,

No need to modify your post as you had it correct. I simply expanded on your original post.

"I have to say I personally see nothing wrong with modern companies putting their signatures into things to protect their R&D investment. I assume that the future will see more of this. I see nothing neferious, evil or wrong with it, they have to make a profit - that is a company's principal object after all."

Very true. However discerning intent is notoriously difficult. Case in point - Nestele and baby formula in the 3rd World.

When they first introduced baby formula there, Nestele was greatly praised, even recieving some ceremonial geegaw from the UN. Jump forward 15 years and Nestele finds itself under increasing attack from various pressure groups over the cultural side effects baby formula sales created in the 3rd World. Eventually Nestele gave up the trade to rid itself of the headache.

Now the 64 CrImp question; did Nestele deliberately begin baby formula sales in the 3rd World knowing the cultural side effects would occur? Or did Nestele; like any company that makes money, merely use thos side effects after they occurred to boost profits? In the former case, Nestele would be have had the intent to cause the side effects. in the latter case, Nestele simply took advantage of the opportunities that arose when the unintended side effects occurred.

Now shift this problem of intent to geneered crops, or Frankenfoods as the neoluddites name them. Monsanto; aside from its usual sharp business practices, is routinely flogged over the fact that many of the crops it sells cannot propogate outside of the lab. Farmers using these crops cannot set aside a portion of their harvest to reseed their fields for the next growing season because the crops have not been engineered to allow that.

Why did Monsanto do that? Cynics will point out that the practice forces farmers to purchase new seeds every year. Cynics will also ignore their own role in it; when geneered crops were first discussed they screamed blue, bloody murder and demanded that the crops not be able to propogate in the 'wild'. Thus Monsanto is flayed by pressure groups for geneering a crop in the EXACT MANNER that the same pressure groups demanded! Nice pickle, huh? Not that Monsanto cares, they 'caved' into those demands and improved their bottom line at the same time.

"The point about the car virus is a) virus needs a way in - modern chips need physical wires to be contactable. This tends to stop things where the outside world cant communicate with the chip from being infected (GPS is a possible way in but only if it is connected to the engine chip). Hence toasters dont turn on their users. Further more, and as you say, to be able to automatically drive is an important point for virus. So C21 terran cars are probably not going to cause much trouble unless radio controlled and infected at the factory."

Precisely. Like all diseases, Virus still needs a transmission vector. Stop the transmission and you stop the chance of infection.

Let's look at our 'backward engineered' TL7 combine. Most of the device can be built on the TL7 planet where it used. The better models also have a TL15 'blackbox' installed. That box allows the TL7 to have all the bells and whistles I listed earlier and even more that we cannot imagine.

Because the blackbox controls som many aspects of the combine, it is wired into nearly everything. The combine offers both a nifty radio reciever and a 2-way walkie-talkie function, all hooked into the blackbox. Virus now has a way in.

Thanks to the black box, the combine offers fuel injection and other efficiency/pollution control features. Virus can now control the engine.

Thanks to the black box, the combine offers an auto-pilot feature utilizing either GPS, inertial tracking, or something akin to LORAN utilizing commercial radio stations. Now, Virus can know where it is.

The more bells and whistles the TL15 black box provides the TL7 combine, the more damage Virus can do. Why is the black box installed? In some cases, it was done to create the megacorp chip 'key' you suggested. A more common reason will be because the black box allows the TL7 combine to do so much more.

Now for toasters. I once sparked a bit of a brouhaha on the TML for suggesting 57th Century robots were, in effect, toasters. By the analogy I meant that robots were everyday devices quite literally beneath the notice of the majority of TL15 citizens. You have robots in your house right now, you just don't 'see' them as robots. Look at your thermostat, your dishwasher, laundry machines, DVD player, etc. They all do persnickety jobs to 'standards' you set and rarely change; forex: that thermostat regulates your heating system to maintain a certain temperature zone in your house.

In the 21st Century all these devices are discrete appliances. In the 57th Century, all thses devices will be intergrated into a seamless whole. We already have fridges that call the repair man or order food from the grocery. In the 57th Century, we'll have living quarters that do all that and more. Our 57th Century - TL15 flat dweller will live in a 'device' that cleans itself and its occupant, tidies up, does laundry, orders food and repairs, acts a search avatar on various infonets, is a valet, a chef, a social secretary, and many things that we cannot even imagine.

Now ask yourself this question; Does our 57th Centurian live in an apartment or a robot? She'd answer apartment, we'd answer robot.

When Virus enters that device, everything - from the toaster, to the Barcapounger to the Water-Pik - becomes deadly.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
I'll speak to this as some of this kind of work is my stock and trade:

The Virus scenario is both plausible and implausible at the same time.

Systems are becoming more homogeneous (open standards, MS nefarious world domination scheme, take your pick). This means one virus hits more systems hard. There is something to be said from heterogeneity from a security standpoint.

On the other other hand, the ability of the virus to modify everything in sight suggests that 11 trillion people couldn't produce a few half smart computer software engineers. There are ways to prevent this that are almost impossible to circumvent without a physical incursion and these should be de rigeur by TL-10, let alone 16. You don't think the 3I is swarming with virii of all tech levels? I do. I also figure this would force a massive effort to defend against them. It's a huge market for megacorps, so they'd be in like Flynn and money would be spent.

Yet flipping back to the original hand, we have the increasing prevalence of burnable technology as an update method (get a software DL, burn it into firmware, pray God your PC works when you boot up again.... um..... pray..... yes, pray!). And we have the increasing occurence of wireless access points, Bluetooth/802.11, WAP enabled devices, wireless routers, RFID tags, etc. There is some strong reason to believe that we are setting ourselves up for just this kind of hammering on Terra at TL-9 in the current day.

So, I think the Virus is both plausible and implausible. It is plausible because device interconnectivity is becoming de rigeur as are downloadable firmware patches. OTOH, the problem will have been around for six TLs, the space of the Empire is huge and central management of common technologies is a crack-addled fantasy, and there will have been huge amounts of money in developing security solutions. And there will be a lot of people clinging to heterogeneous technologies, for practical security reasons as well as for the more pedestrian but more important simple economic one - the Empire is a technological, political, and tarrif/tax/import restriction patchwork.

But, having said all that, the Virus is also a matter of canon, so we have to work up a believable (ish) accounting of how it might transpire if we wish to be comfortable with it.

It's like living with the Jump Torpedo or the Empress Wave, or the Rebellion - not always comfortable, but necessary if one is a canon fan.
 
Though I agree with most of what Larsen said, the deadliness of the Virus in terms of invading minor systems or houses etc. ignores (blissfully) the fact that, as these devices become ubiquitous and beneath the notice of the consumer, there are a whack load of engineers and other technical experts who have a very in-depth understanding working very hard to see to it that these things function correctly, safely, and in a manner that isn't subject to abuse.

So yes, your 57th century apartment is beneath your notice and has lots of potential interconnectivity etc. However, it was built by a lot of very smart guys standing on the shoulders of other very smart guys who've had experience with the evolution of various abuses at the same time as the technology was evolving.

As I said, the Virus is implausible to some degree - it assumes a huge cultural and technical blind spot that makes little sense given the intercorporate and interworld conflicts of the Travellerverse.

But, we have it as recorded history, so we just run on the "Hear-See-Think-No-Evil" device, and hum along....
 
Back
Top