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Terran Confederation/Solomani Imperium

Elliot quotes that:
'The Imperial Naval Base at Celetron is hard at work on a self aware starship project. While only a ground based proto-type has been produced, the project's technicians are hopeful that an independently intelligent interstellar vehicle will be produced by the end of this century; partial applications of the technology, such as safer navigation and more accurate ship to ship combat should come sooner'.
All they were doing was copying something the Terrans did 3505 years ago
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.

Check the Chronology of the Imperium in the MT imperial Encyclopedia.
" AD 2129 Terran Navy uses artificially intelligent robots." ;)
 
I think the comment about distingushing between Cymbeline chips, Deyo chips, and Virus is very important.

My take is that each Virus manifestation is a 'disembodied psionic entity'. A being made of psionic energy. Note that there are several canonical examples of such things, although they were all generated by psionic humans (The 'ghost' of the psionic knight in one adventure and IIRC there was something similar in "The Possession Ball". I regret being so vague, but I don't have my books here).

Note, BTW, that I'm not claiming that this is what the original writers of the Virus had in mind. It is merely a handwave that I think can explain Virus away.

Also note that just because something is made of psionic energy, it doesn't follow that it can manifest all or even any other psionic powers.

Anyway, I see the Virus as a psionic entity whose natural habitat is Deyo chips, but which can infect other bits of silicon with various success. As for the exact limitations on what it can and cannot do, just look at what Survival Margin says Virus can do.

Maybe invoking "Traveller magic" is difficult to swallow, but is is more or less difficult to swallow than mere computer programs that can do all the things we are told that Virus can do? My opinion is: much less.


Hans

Hans
 
I see the Virus as a psionic entity whose natural habitat is Deyo chips
The same way Humaniti, the Droyne, etc are psionic entities who inhabit organic bodies ;) ?

It is a natural extension of your argument ;)
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Excellent analsysis Larsen.

Kaladorn:
We all like reprogrammable devices - we've got flash memory on our PC motherboards, in our cars, in our cellphones, in our PDAs, and many other less obvious places. We're also creating more and more converged devices. Maybe by the time of the 3I, it has become cheap enough to manufacture nearly every chip with a big brain, lots of memory, a wireless link, etc.
Yes definately. How excited would manufacturers be it they had analytical firewalls and cred sticks. The financial institutions would've also loved it.
Then when people try to get money out due to the chaos...

Good analysis, MJD you should consider crediting Larsen and using this analysis in 1248.

Savage
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I see the Virus as a psionic entity whose natural habitat is Deyo chips
The same way Humaniti, the Droyne, etc are psionic entities who inhabit organic bodies ;) ?</font>[/QUOTE]No, the way a soul that could leave one body and invade another body and take it over, either displacing or suppressing the original 'occupant', could be called a psionic entity.

(I don't think such an entity has ever appeared in any Traveller adventure, but it's been seen in a few SF books.)

It is a natural extension of your argument ;)
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I don't agree.


Hans
 
rancke wrote:

"I think the comment about distingushing between Cymbeline chips, Deyo chips, and Virus is very important."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

Oh yes, very much so. First off, Cymbeline and Deyo are chips and Virus isn't. That's the bit everyone forgets, Virus isn't chips.

"My take is that each Virus manifestation is a 'disembodied psionic entity'. A being made of psionic energy. Note that there are several canonical examples of such things, although they were all generated by psionic humans (The 'ghost' of the psionic knight in one adventure and IIRC there was something similar in "The Possession Ball". I regret being so vague, but I don't have my books here)."

All DGP adventures published in TD; 'Psionic Knights' for the first and 'Inheritence' or some such for the latter. All forbidden canon, all slowly being over-written.

"Note, BTW, that I'm not claiming that this is what the original writers of the Virus had in mind. It is merely a handwave that I think can explain Virus away."

Sure, with Mr. Nilsen not talking and the pledge of silence he asked for still being observed, we're all just applying handwaves.

"As for the exact limitations on what it can and cannot do, just look at what Survival Margin says Virus can do."

Just what does Survival Margin say Virus can do? SM is pretty clear that Virus is strongly limited by the types of systems it infects. If Virus infects a system without the proper 'amount' of 'processing potential'; whatever that amount is, Virus isn't even sentient. TNE's Vampire Fleets says the same. What's more, even when sentient, Virus is still effected by its host's attributes. SM, TNE, and VF have stories regarding odd Viral personality quirks thanks to host systems; the stellar telescope comes to mind.

So what can Virus do? IMHO, not much more than what it's host system can do.

"Maybe invoking "Traveller magic" is difficult to swallow, but is is more or less difficult to swallow than mere computer programs that can do all the things we are told that Virus can do? My opinion is: much less."

Okay. Answer this question; That list of things Virus can do, can every Virus strain do them at any time? Remember, Virus isn't even independently sentient. It has the potential to be sentient if it infects the proper system. Virus aboard the downed Droyne cruiser in the 'Smash and Grab' adventure has psionic attributes. Are those attributes part of Virus or part of the host it infected?

If Virus' sentience is situational, why shouldn't nearly all its other attributes be situational also?

YMMV.

Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Argh mateys - the old psionic virus gambit, I though you land lubbers had forgotted that one after Mr Larsen's analysis.

But Mr Larsen, to nudge you in the ribs - to say that Psionic Knights is forbidden canon forgets HPPE (what a load of bull that was) and the other ancient artefact psionic cack in the horror issue of Challenge (number I forget) - is that a variant or is it canon?

In my view all magazine articles are to a lesser or greater extent variants. If it aint worth publishing in a book, it aint worth being canon

(Elliot anticipates hard times ahead from his comments and expects the brief peace created on this board to be shattered - Travellers please be civil).
 
Elliot, of course, you are quite right in stating all magazine articles are variants. But, they are also the testing grounds and examination tables in which fandom can dissect ideas before they make the refinement of a book.

Perhaps, the web has taken over some of these functions now but it is like the proverbal thousand monkeys banging away at the keyboard, in a few thousand years we might just come up with Hamlet.

In the meantime, we have to focus on where was the inspiration and try to refine the vision by bringing it closer to reality and conversely, bring reality to the vision by dreaming.
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
rancke wrote:
"My take is that each Virus manifestation is a 'disembodied psionic entity'. A being made of psionic energy. Note that there are several canonical examples of such things, although they were all generated by psionic humans (The 'ghost' of the psionic knight in one adventure and IIRC there was something similar in "The Possession Ball". I regret being so vague, but I don't have my books here)."

All DGP adventures published in TD; 'Psionic Knights' for the first and 'Inheritence' or some such for the latter. All forbidden canon, all slowly being over-written.
Forbidden Canon? Only if you think disembodied psionic entities first appeared in DGP material.


Just what does Survival Margin say Virus can do? SM is pretty clear that Virus is strongly limited by the types of systems it infects. If Virus infects a system without the proper 'amount' of 'processing potential'; whatever that amount is, Virus isn't even sentient. TNE's Vampire Fleets says the same. What's more, even when sentient, Virus is still effected by its host's attributes. SM, TNE, and VF have stories regarding odd Viral personality quirks thanks to host systems; the stellar telescope comes to mind.
I see no problem here. I dare say that if my soul was transferred to a spider monkey, my personality would be affected (Some of the people I've argued with over the years might not agree, but phooey to them ;) )

Anyway, I said a disembodied psionic entity. I didn't say an independently active and intelligent disembodied psionic entity.

So what can Virus do? IMHO, not much more than what it's host system can do.


Ah! Therein lies the rub. The things a Virus can do that its host system can't, are all those things that makes people say "A computer program can't do that!" That's the whole point of the handwave. To be specific, while it is best adapted to attack Deyo chips, it can infect other systems as well, in various ways that would be totally unbelievable if it was merely a computer program, however sophisticated.

Okay. Answer this question; That list of things Virus can do, can every Virus strain do them at any time?
That would limit a GM's ability to tailor Virus to fit the dramatic needs of his campaign, so I'd say no. I'd have to know just what powers you're thinking of to say for sure.

If Virus' sentience is situational, why shouldn't nearly all its other attributes be situational also?
What makes you ask that? Did I say anthing to make you think I thought differently? :confused:


Hans
 
Geez, LEW, just buy the dang thing so your ideas can be officially part of the discussion. Your analyses are pretty much the impressions that I got from reading the books myself, and I find it so very odd that people have all these whacked ideas that seem to come from thin air.

Your biological "comparisons" are real good at pointing out the problems with analogies, and I think that's where a lot of the brain farts are coming from: people reading an analogy as gospel, and not actually reading the text for what it says.

Virus psionic? That's a laugh! All its abilities have been explained in the books (whether VF or SM or Signal GK) and people drawing excessive conclusions are just scaring me!

How can an electronic device affect things remotely? Ever hear of magnetic fields? I have a "waterproof" electric razor. I CAN'T plug it into the wall. I set it on the charger (which IS plugged into the wall) and it magically recharges the shaver. It's called "coil effect". Ok, I don't recall the official term. Anyone know how a transformer works?

A transformer is a pair of coils which are NOT electrically connected to each other. However, by running current through one coil, we get current out of the other one, with no wires touching! And even at the same frequencies and everything! How can that be? Simple: the first coil produces an EM field, which is "picked up" by the second coil.

Just about any electrical component you can make (capacitors, vacuum tubes, wires, resistors, diodes, etc....) can be etched into a silicon wafer. Chips have their own micronized versions of these things (the vacuum tube becomes a transistor) and can do anything that larger electrical stuff can do, except perhaps handle the same amperage loads. (A wire of a given diameter can only handle so many electrons flowing through it at once before it burns out.)

This magnetic coupling effect that my shaver uses is now being put to use in computer networking communication devices. I could hardly believe it myself when I heard, but there it is. The problem with magnetic coupling is that the range is abysmal. While radio waves are a range-squared effect, these things are a range-to-the-fourth-power effect. But on the scale that a Cymbaline chip operates (often physical contact), EM coupling is an excellent means of communication.

Transistors also have this nifty ability to convert volts and amps interchangeably (so long as the total wattage is the same). using its capacitors, the Cymbaline chip stores up energy, then uses its telekinesis (magnetic levitation) to get close enough to a target, then hops onto it and proceeds to use its transformers to apply amps and volts as needed to the target, physically modifying its circuitry.

Virus has this skill in spades, and has unlimited power from the reactor over there, so a process that would take a Cymbaline chip hours or days, the Virus needs only a few seconds or minutes, and it has captured the target chip. (Of course, it's not physically leaping onto the target, nor necessarily communicating via EM coupling when direct electrical connections are present.)

Using its L33T SKILZ :D and its resources, it burns a copy of itself into the host silicon (or germanium or whatever the heck the target is made of) and at that point, it has a safe refuge. "Go ahead and cut the power! I'll still be there when you turn me back on. And you know you will because you need this system I'm in for your own survival, so just save yourself the trouble and do my bidding." Eventually, the new virus will figure out what it's in, take control over it (covertly at first, then overtly when it suits its purposes), and will execute whatever its mission is.

Personality oddities come from the virus simply not rewriting the WHOLE chip upon infection. If a system is purpose-built to study toast, then the chances are pretty good that the new virus will have an unnatural affinity for ensuring bread is turned properly into toast, and may or may not be too preoccupied to accomplish its other missions, such as spreading itself and then extinguishing itself. If you overwrite the WHOLE chip, then you have nothing to run on. Not even Virus can "start from scratch", to borrow a LEW phrase. It works with what's there.

Hopefully, in my own "way" I have helped shed some light for some, and offended only those deserving of offense. :D
 
Originally posted by Kafka47:
Elliot, of course, you are quite right in stating all magazine articles are variants. But, they are also the testing grounds and examination tables in which fandom can dissect ideas before they make the refinement of a book.

Perhaps, the web has taken over some of these functions now but it is like the proverbal thousand monkeys banging away at the keyboard, in a few thousand years we might just come up with Hamlet.
/me looks around the CotI boards, the TML, various other Traveller websites, newsgroups

So what are we doing here and in the playtest forum then?

/me grins, ducks, and RUNS

Personally magazines are way too slow for this purpose and can only handle a small volume when compared to the internet. Web sites and pdf etc. files have largely taken over the niche once served by low-print run magazines as far as gaming is concerned.

How many gaming (as in RPG) magazines in print are out there that aren't house organs? Maybe one or two, depending on how much you consider Knighs of the Dinner Table a comic book or house organ. As far as Traveller goes, JTAS is online only now. I can print out what articles I need when I need them and if that copy gets destroyed, I can print out another one.

Casey
 
Ok this is all excellent work and exceptionally handy to my understanding of virus as a life form, but it has yet to clear up one or two key issues for me. Virus transmits (in whatever form) by radio waves, em waves, em fields ,telekenesis, levitation, plugged in wires etc etc ad in finitum.....
So what's our defence again people??
Oh yeah dispersed area electronics was an answer given but now that is loosing some of its plausability for me. All these vast yet concise description of what virus is has yet to really help me "in game terms" to handle it as a GM in my current campaign.
For example if it needs the Deyo transponders my players can have a safe (all things being relative)starship to tool around in by ripping the damned thing out? If it comes in by the communications console via Laser coms radio coms maser or whatever can they stop it there by isolating comms? If it comes in by em field/waves
/pulse's etc can it enter through the EMS active or passive array? If so how's our defences there?
If whilst at a dirty starport their ships Engineer stands too close to an infected yet powered down computer will it levitae a one cubic centimeter less than one gram wafer chip onto the
toungue of his boot to be brought aboard their ship and then jump to and engineering workstation?
I'm wondering if I was happier with a big handwave :mad: Keep up the great work though
 
I thought the primary vector of Virus on to shipboard systems was through the comm/transponder system. Also, one of the first actions taken to protect starships was to isolate the transponeder and comm systems from the rest of the ship. Virus, being intelligent found other ways to infect vessels, but the easy way in started to shut down very quickly.
 
In all this talk about quantity we must remember
that the chips on Cymbeline were not organic life.
Sure the mass nuking of the highlands would vapor-
ise nost of the chips, but silicon life would be
more affected by the EMP than by the heat and radiation (talk about an energy-rich environment!)
What would prevent the chip from not being eradi-
cated, but rather mutated? Adapt or die would be an evolutionary imperative that would be accel-
erated among silicon-based form like the chips.

As to the composition of the Terran Confederation:
The relative tech of Solomani settlements sympathetic to the Terran cause were already re-
duced thanks to the last war. Terrans had less reliance on computers, and their independent, non-Vilani viewpoint would make them wary of anything so dependent on control systems that could be externally influenced. I believe that only Imperial facilities and equipment would have been affected by Virus, leaving many Terran facilities
intact. cougashika@hotmail.com
 
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