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Terran Confederation/Solomani Imperium

If we can suspend disbelief long enough to accept Jump drives, psionics, thruster plates, and laser pistols, why can't we accept Virus as it has been written by Martin and those that came before him? While some "technologies" in Traveller may seem to have a hard science feel to them, it's all still fiction.

If you don't want Virus IYTU, don't use it. You can easily remove it from the 1248 setting and the timeline leading up to it.

Or if you don't like how Virus has been described, describe it differently for YTU.

This is an old and tired debate.
 
Well it wasn't lets use a game to revise Space Science 101 if thats what you mean. What fun would there be in that of 99.9% of RPGers?

But compared to late 70s and 80s sci fi it had a hard science and 'real' social science edge to it. How many newbies cry 'what no light sabers', 'What about Star Trek teleporters?', 'Can we build a fusion grenade?', 'why do people still use revolvers/cutlasses and not blasters with unlimited ammo and no power source'

Those questions all existed in TNE, of course, but (talking from my experience of Traveller:TNE at the time) the people who liked CT style hard science fiction (if you will allow me that) couldn't stomach TNE.

I personally liked it - I JUST HATED THE VIKINGS (so there!)

One last point... - Can we get back to the Terrans?
 
Bwuh???

TNE was more hard-sf than anything I'd ever seen. It was certainly much 'harder' than CT was.
 
I was wondering if anyone would bring that out.
Good job Malenfant.

Some people seem to think that TNE was less hard scifi but perhaps since it wasn't written/edited by Marc, they're reviewing the style unintentionally.

Remember, the product line consisted of TNE and
T2300. TNE tried to fix MT. It also had FFS, which
although not perfect, was a useful refs tool. T20
could use an FFS.

***
As for the Imperium's Rebellion and Virus, I'm a big fan if I don't have to explain X-boats as the method of communications that keeps 11000 system together.
With Virus, the more Bezerker the better, in my mind. IMTU Virus is cyberline based with some restrictions. Virus was far from all powerful and never should be interpreted as such. It should however spread like rabits, hate humanity and be self-absorbed. Otherwise, there'd be no game universe left to play in.

Also, is there any version of Traveller w/out cutlasses. Me thinks not.

Savage
 
MJD wrote:

"No. I do not respond to demands."


Mr. Dougherty,

Please is a demand?


Sincerely,
Larsen

P.S. Per your request, how I view Virus is being written up. Just taking a break at the moment.
 
Rupert wrote:

"Secondly, "Outside Influences" in _Smash & Grab_ has a psionic Virus-infected computer. Just how canon an adventure is is debateable, but there it is in black and white, copyright 1994."


Mr. Boleyn,

The computer in question was on a downed Droyne cruiser. Is Virus intrinsically psionic or does it employ psionic equipment after it infects them?

Before you answer, remember, Virus is not even intrinsically sentient. A Viral infection of a toaster has far different results that a Viral infection of a mainframe. Sandman requires a proper host and takes great to care to provide and protect one, otherwise it is subsapient.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
DED wrote:

"If we can suspend disbelief long enough to accept Jump drives, psionics, thruster plates, and laser pistols, why can't we accept Virus as it has been written by Martin and those that came before him?"


Mr. DED,

Because the psionic Virus as written by 'Martin' may have nothing to do with the Virus written by 'those that came before him'. Please note; I wrote MAY.

Mr. Dougherty did have some communication with Mr. Nilsen. How much Mr. Nilsen deigned to share with Mr. Dougherty we do not know. An intrinsically psionic Virus may have very well been up Mr. Nilsen's sleeve. On the other hand, an intrinsically psionic virus may be Mr. Dougherty's solution to the Virus Question, just as Virus was Mr. Nilsen's solution to the Rebellion Question.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
MJD explained:

"Anything that attempts to build on prior informaiton in some way involves making up new canon."


Mr. Dougherty,

Certainly. You can make up new canon in the form of a new perspective, as in the case of the changes in Traveller's description of Zhodani society. You can also make up new facts that solve a puzzle posed by old facts; as in the case of Aslan jump drive. Finally, you can just make canon up when you feel you are painted into a corner; as in Virus.

"The question is, does the end product have sufficient intenral consistency and compaitbility wth prior information that it is acceptable to Traveller gamers...?"

Only sales will tell, sales and the test of time. Behind the Claw sold well, but its reputation within Our Olde Hobby is rather poor - undeservedly poor in my humble opinion.

"The purpose of the playtest is to catch glaring errors (one really good one already got caught!).. feedback is thus important."

That is one purpose for playtesting, yes. Playtests should catch things like 'mecha' battledress. There are other things playtesting does too, like ensuring "does the end product have sufficient intenral consistency and compaitbility wth prior information that it is acceptable to Traveller gamers...". That's an important one too.

"However, I have no intention of submitting to an inquisition."

Consider the questions I posed concerning the M:1248 playtest answered.


I remain, etc., etc.,
William R. Cameron
 
Originally posted by Elliot:
How big is the Terran Commonwealth?
How near is it to the Solomani Imperium?
I got the impression that the Terran Commonwealth was half a sector in size and only a couple of subsectors away from the Solomani Imperium.
 
Mr. Dougherty,

How do I view Virus? There are so many ways I can answer that question. I view Virus as an awful mistake. I view Virus as an honest attempt to 'kick start' Traveller. I view Virus as a totally implausible, belief-suspender snapping, deus ex machina. I view Virus as a tool used to sweep away an increasingly futile and gloomy setting. I view Virus as an act of hubris by Our Olde Game's Line Editor. I view Virus in many, many ways. Most of all, I view Virus as something that must be explained in order for Traveller to deal with its own future again. Thanks to Virus, Traveller; the game about the Far Future, has ignored its own future for over a decade.

If we are to settle the question of Virus, our solution must take into account the metagame and in-game roles of Virus. From a metagame standpoint, Virus is an editorial fait accompli. For better or worse, it was the tool chosen to end the Rebellion, the Black War, and the Hard Times. We are 'stuck' with Virus. Virus and all its works cannot be simply swept away, they are part of Traveller's fabric whether we like it or not.

There is one important lesson we can learn from the metagame aspects of Virus however. We should avoid, if at all possible, solving the question of Virus by the same 'rabbit out of the hat' editorial dictat method that created Virus in the first place. Two wrongs do not make a right and two deus ex machinas do not cancel each other out. One of the major complaints about Virus was that the editor's fingerprints were too easily noticed. Virus was first what the editor needed it to be and then only afterward made to 'fit' into Traveller - and an extremely poor fit at that. The answer to the Virus Question should utilize what is already in Traveller and not depend on applying yet another grab bag of handwaves.

Keeping the idea of 'No New Handwaves' firmly in mind, I believe that the in-game role of Virus can both be explained and solved. Because this message is getting rather long, I will lay out my in-game view of Virus in my next post. As you read that post, I would like you to keep this question in mind:

If Virus is psionic, why do the Hivers; a non-psionic race who are the acknowledged masters of cybernetics and artificial intelligence in Chartered Space, have the best anti-Viral techniques and countermeasures? Shouldn't the Zhodani; one of the acknowledged psionic masters of Chartered Space, or the Droyne; the other psionic masters, have the best anti-Viral techniques if Virus is psionic? More simply put:

If Virus is psionic, why can the non-psionic Hivers fight it better than the Zhodani or Droyne?


Sincerely,
Larsen

P.S. Elliot - Sorry to have hi-jacked the thread. Can the two topics be physically retitled somehow or do we all have to move to the new Virus thread instead?
 
Mr. Dougherty,

As you requested earlier, my views on Virus.

Virus IMTU

I believe that the in-game questions regarding Virus can both be explained and solved, just as I believe the in-game questions regarding the Interstellar Wars can be explained and solved. I also believe that additional handwaves should not and need not be utilized in this effort. Handwaves only further muddy the picture. We don't need more 'facts', we simply need a new perspective from which to view those facts.

Traveller has always had 'circles within circles'. Mr. Miller has written about them and most of you will know two of the biggest examples; the nature of Zhodani society and how the Aslan developed jump drive. In both these cases, the facts did not change, instead our perspective of the facts changed. The in-game mechanism that changed our perspective in these cases was the idea of 'common knowledge'; ideas and facts that most people hold to be true but are in actuality half-truths, propaganda, urban myths, or outright lies. Perception is reality, change your perception and reality changes too.

I believe that through the mechanism of 'common knowledge' we can explain and solve the Virus Question with a minimum of handwaves newly created for the purpose. We may even be able to dispense with any new major handwaves altogether.

Below, I have listed my six primary 'views' or 'ideas' regarding the nature of Virus. These views, or ideas, are necessarily general. While they hold to canonical facts, in some cases they twist the canonical perception of those facts. I should also caution us about taking certain comparisons too far. Virus is a lifeform but not a carbon-biological lifeform. Any comparisons of regarding Virus that use carbon-biological terms are, at best, imprecise and, at worst, misleading. A comparison is just that, a comparison and not a complete guide to object being described. Elephants may weep, but they also do not play chess. Enough blather, on to the main course!


I believe that...

Virus is natural, not artifical - Is a quarter horse artificial? Is a Siamese cat? A Martha Washington geranium? Maize (corn to you Americans)? All of those living organisms have been bred by man, some for millenia. Yet none are described as artificial. Virus was bred from the Cymbeline chips, a natural sophont species. Man, rather than nature, directed the evolution of Virus from its Cymbeline ancestors, just as man, not nature, directed the evolution of quarter horses, siamese cats, and maize.

In some cases, Man has directed the evolution of species far beyond their so-called wild ancestors' attributes. Maize is an example of this; that's why I included it on my list. Even with the use of gene mapping, archeo-botanists have still yet to discover the wild antecedent of maize. We've changed maize so much, we can no longer find its roots - pun intended.

What man didn't do was 'build' Virus from the 'ground up'. Man took the naturally evolved attributes of the Cymbeline sophont chips, promoted what he wanted, suppressed what he didn't, and bent that sentient lifeform to his needs. We done it for millenia to thousands of other, non-sentient species. We're doing it today, somewhat faster thanks to geneering, but we're still not building what we want from the 'ground up'.

Man bred Virus from a natural sophont species. The Cymbeline sophont chips aren't natural you say? They needed the sudden intrusion of the a downed Terran Cofederation cruiser and its load of UFIC 29008A MILSPEC chips? Once those MILSPEC chips hit Cymbeline's surface they were part of the Cymbeline ecology. The Cymbeline chips merely exploited something found in their ecology, no more and no less. It was the evolutionary process that produced sentience, not the MILSPEC chips.

Still not convinced? Try this one on for size. K'Kree sentience is due to a nearby supernova. Does that make the K'Kree artificial? After all, the supernova was an 'intrusion' into the K'Kree ecology from off-world, just like the MILSPEC chips.

Finally, why does the Imperium continually refer to Virus, as well as its SDG cousin and its Cymbeline antecedents, as an artificial lifeform? It is a sop to the Imperium's conscience. By labeling the Cymbeline chips, SDG, and Virus as artificial, the Imperium can pretend it isn't engaged in a eugenics program on an enslaved sentient species. This is a very old trick. Some Imperial researchers might not even know that there are 'wild' sophont chips on Cymbeline or that they are working on the descendents of a naturally occurring sophont species.


Virus' best carbon-biological analog is that of a virus or, better yet, a prion - Rather self-explanatory, but I still needed to list it. Virus does not exist without a host, it has no body in and of itself. Without a host, the only ability Virus can boast of is that of infection.

Virus in this prion-like state is not sentient. Like biological prions and viruses, Virus in this state can barely be described as being 'alive' - it is more like the 'potential' for life than life itself. The use of the terms 'seed' or 'egg' to describe Viral-infection prions are misleading. Seeds, eggs, and sperm are alive while Viral-infection prions can only lead to life.

The Virus-prion must infect a host, only then can it begin behave in a manner that we consider may life-like. The Virus we see in operation in merely the end result of a Virual-prion infection. If no proper host is present - with proper being determined by the Viral entity that transmitted the Viral 'seed' in question, Virus can become a 'spore' and wait. However, Virus still needs a host in which to grow, reproduce, and reach its full potential.

Like any disease, without a host Virus is nothing.


Virus is a genus, not a species - It is much better to think of the many strains of Virus as individual species and not merely different 'strains' or 'breeds'. The differences between a Puppeteer, a Doomslayer, and Sandman are far greater than the differences between collies, poodles, and boxers. After its release, Virus underwent the type of 'punctuated equilibrium' evolution that the late Stephen Jay Gould theorized about. The original Viral species rapidly evolved into dozens of other species - some still interfertile with the others.

(Remember my earlier caution about biological comparisons? Some readers may have pooh-poohed the paragraph above after recalling an old definition of species; the inability to interbreed. As I said, biological comparisons can only be pushed so far. I'm using the term species to denote major changes in Viral modus operandi and not to mark when Viral interfertility ceases. Virus is asexual, bisexual, and multisexual. It can 'mate' with nearly anything cybernetic if it chooses, selecting attributes from parasited circuits, devoured prey, and other sources to imbue in its offspring. Besides, that old definition of species is no longer used. Different species of all sort of animals and plants are interfertile; horses, citrus fruit, elephants, big cats, etc.)


Virus is not intrinsically sentient - Because Virus depends so greatly upon its host, it is NOT intrinsically sentient. Viral sentience depends wholly on the host it infects. There must be enough 'processing potential' available in the host for Virus to reach full sentience, otherwise it remains sub-sapient. This dependency even goes so far as to effect the 'personalities' of sentient Viral infections; the sentient Virus aboard a deep space telescope has a noticeably different personality than the sentient Virus aboard a warship.

Virus' host-dependent sentience gets even odder. When the offspring of a biological sophont fails to achieve sentience that offspring is viewed as defective or damaged in some manner - and indeed it is. This does not hold true for Virus however. Sub-sapient Viral offspring simply have a poor host, they can still achieve sentience if they move to a better host. What's more, as it moves from host to host, Virus can cross and recross the sentience threshold with few, if any, effects.

Sentience for Virus depends far more on 'nuture' than 'nature'.


Virus is not a chip - Virus requires a chip or other computing substrate, but Virus is not bound by them. Please note; I am not suggesting some mystical Viral 'soul' exists or any other metaphysical nonsense. What I am pointing out is that Virus can go 'virtual'. It is not bound by matter, Virus can travel via energy alone. Although the term does not begin to even explain Virus, it is the only one I can use that we have experience with: Virus is a kind of 'operating system'. It is not wholly matter, nor is it usually wholly energy. Just as I am a bag of meat and water with a weak electrical system, Virus is a collection of energy with some physical circuitry.

Virus can transmit itself from host to host; either full and whole or as a barely living 'prion', a sub-sapient program, marginally sentient idiot-savant, or at any 'level' of sentience in between. Any Virus, no matter what 'sentience level' it currently exists at, can achieve sentience in the proper host. This make Virus quite literally in the 'ghost in the machine'.


Virus is a living weapon - The original Viral species was a purposely designed weapon. The Cymbeline sophont chips had been put through a eugenics program to create an idiot-savant; a barely sentient, suicidal, cybernetic lifeform that could invade and paralyze the computers aboard an enemy's vessel through a known infection point - the SDG transponder chip.

The SDG chips were chosen as an infection point because they and Virus have a similar lineage; they are both descendents of the Cymbeline sophont chips and thus share some of the same 'genetic' heritage. The SDG transponder chips were even more of an idiot-savant then the original Virus species was. The parasitic nature of the Cymbeline chips had been removed from or greatly suppressed in the SDG chips. Unfortunately, in the case of Virus, parasitic behavior was the whole point.

Like humans and chimpanzees, Virus and the transponder chips have a common ancestor; the Cymbeline sophont chips. Virus is not a descendent of the SDG chips, instead Virus is meant to exploit the SDG chip's presence.


Those are my six primary 'views' or 'ideas' regarding Virus. They can be considered the foundation I use to explain Virus' behavior, its evolution, and the results of its 'infection' of its many hosts. In my next post, I'll lay out my views of Virus' effects on Chartered Space and how Virus managed to do what it did. Just as importantly, I'll discuss how Virus' victims percieved it and what 'common knowledge' their descendents believe regarding Virus. Oh, I'll also discuss the history of syphilis and the Spanish Influenza of 1919 just for the hell of it. ;)

As always, your mileage may - and most certainly should - vary.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Originally posted by Elliot:
How big is the Terran Commonwealth?
How near is it to the Solomani Imperium?

Emm, should we really discuss stuff from the playtest on an open forum?
I don't mind personaly but an "official ruling" on this could be good.

Oh, and Elliot. You did mention Virus, anti-Viral strategies, and Cymbeline chips in your original post ;)
file_23.gif
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Sigg Oddra mused:

"Emm, should we realy discuss stuff from the playtest on an open forum?"


Mr. Oddra,

I'd strongly suggest that you do not. The playtest files are available for those who wish to purchase them. Any 'teasers' or 'hints' or 'previews' should by dispensed by their creator only.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Mr Whipsnade,

Impressive.

Your post abou Virus, not the comment about openly discussing material from the playtest ;) .

I was a Virus-hater until recently. This whole thread has helped me come to a pseudo-scientific explanation of the one question I don't think TNE ever answered, namely, "how can Virus affect a computer system that doesn't have a Deyo circuit in it?"

I look forward to your next post on Virus.
 
Mr. Whipsnade,

As always, I am impressed by your use of word and verse to communicate concepts and ideas very concisely and effectively. In your post, you outlined my personal perceptions of how Virus should be viewed almost perfectly. (I still think that the Virus 'spore' should have a minimum size, programatically, and wouldn't fit in the memory chips of a TL15 toaster. Then again, I don't know how advanced a TL15 toaster is. Hopefully, it would no longer burn my bread at random intervals.)

I think that I could agree with almost any use of Virus so long as it fell under the description you've given above.


Thanks for sharing your gift of eloquence,
Flynn
 
Sigg Oddra wrote:

"Impressive."


Mr. Oddra,

Thank you sir. I fear it too little too late however. The playtest has begun, the chapters have been written.

"I was a Virus-hater until recently."

I am not a Virus-hater. I am a Virus-accepter. Virus is here to stay, we cannot make it disappear. Virus with intrinsic psionic powers seems to be here to stay also. Whether that means that I, or any others, will continue to have interest the Official TNE Setting remains to be seen.

"This whole thread has helped me come to a pseudo-scientific explanation of the one question I don't think TNE ever answered, namely, "how can Virus affect a computer system that doesn't have a Deyo circuit in it?"

Psuedo-scientific is my middle name. The Deyo circuit was merely the planned point of entry for Viral infection and the first wave of Viral infections did utilize that point of entry. However, Virus' explosive evolution once it escaped captivity meant that it would quickly exploit other avenues of infection.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Flynn wrote:

"(I still think that the Virus 'spore' should have a minimum size, programatically, and wouldn't fit in the memory chips of a TL15 toaster. Then again, I don't know how advanced a TL15 toaster is. Hopefully, it would no longer burn my bread at random intervals.)"


Mr. Flynn,

I think that a Viral 'spore' or 'prion' will have a minimum size too. Like you, it is realistic(1) to expect that certain devices will not have the 'program' size or 'computational potential' to allow a new Viral infection to take 'root'. Like we see in the Real World, the spores or seeds or prions that fall on that 'barren' ground will fail and die.

By TL15, I do not believe that most household appliances will be discrete units. While the toaster may not have the 'room' required, the apartment will. The toaster can be viewed an 'appendage' of the apartment.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - As 'realistic' as the discussion of a mythical lifeform in a make-believe future can be! ;)
 
I think we really do need to make crystal clear the distinctions between Virus, the Cymbeline chips, and the Deyo transponders.

The biggest problem I think is how Virus - which is basically just code transmitted via EM radiation into a computer - can somehow magically rewrite ANY physical hardware.

This made some kind of sense with the Deyo chips, because there you had Virus overwriting chips that were evolved from those on Cymbeline. So presumably they had whatever was built into them to allow rewriting to happen. It doesn't make sense with an ordinary silicon chip.

I think Virus itself makes more sense to me if I think of it as literally an AI virus. There's none of this rewriting of hardware then - it's all done in the software. OK, it's an AI virus that can infect any computer at all, but that's more reasonable to me than having it rewriting physical chips on a motherboard.
 
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