That Corsair/Pirate Problem...

[Whipsnade]

That is an EXCELLENT and AMAZING breakdown and the essay is awesome!

Thank Walt Smith.

Just as the "Smoke Tests" at Yahoo's ct_starships group "reminded" us that fighters were deadly below certain tech levels, Walt's decision to go back to the basics and look at the actual numbers 'reminded" us just what pirates needed to do and how rarely they needed to do it.

 

[creativehum]

The intercept-fight-board-capture model of piracy doesn't really work too well inside the 100D limit, especially when we remember that ships in orbit around a Size 8 world can shoot at targets beyond that limit.

Bill, thanks for this.

A thought, about the quote above:

It is a valid concern for pirates, or not, depending on the volume of traffic between worlds and in system -- which depends on how the Referee is running his setting.

Looking at the Starship Encounter Table, that odds for encountering another ship in the system are fairly low unless one is in a system with a Naval Base or Scout Base... and especially low in a system with E or X starports. The odds, then, of having another ship in the system isn't always that great.

I understand the low volume of traffic I'm talking about doesn't fit the Third Imperium model of "interstellar travel will be as common as international travel is today" found in later editions of the game. But when I look at the rules, I see an interstellar society with a low volume of ship traffic, which allows the rules as written for both space combat, the threat of piracy, and space encounters to dovetail nicely with one another.

I'm not saying this make sense for everyone else. But I like the idea of fewer ships traveling between the stars for several reasons -- including the increased risk of viable piracy -- per the rules as written.

 

[kilemall]

Also remember that, in the Space Vikings story(ies), the vast majority of the "loot" was NOT resold, but was kept, and used to maintain/boost the home planets - in Traveller the pirates could be from somewhat distant low-tech worlds that are stealing what they cannot afford to buy, trying to use captured loot to build up their home tech base (yes, these are actually privateers). The high-tech gear they possess & use would then be all captured material.

My pirate clans that are 'beyond known space' are largely doing exactly that, and whatever profits they are earning is to buy equipment and supplies otherwise denied them by the authorities.

In the case of the essay Whip linked, those match general assumptions I have about economics, but also studied how the real Tortuga pirates made their money and operated their base, which involved a lot of colonial collusion, particularly British colonies in the Carolinas, paying for goods at 50% off plus no taxation and the pirates getting 25%.

They also took ships and cannon they could not make, sails they did not have textiles for, and shanghaied specific skill sets they could not hire, particularly doctors.

In the case of my Oort cloud, there is time and not enough Navy to seize an entire ship and have it parted out in a week since a patrol won't pick up an SOS for weeks.

In that milieu, an A-drive is Pure Gold as it can be plugged into most anything and is a life and death manufactured item they cannot make. The otherwise metal poor Cloud will cut up and gladly reuse every square centimeter of heavy ship they can get their clutches on.

Actual Class A/B starship maintenance is the most precious commodity Out There, it means a ship that won't break down and strand you between oasis and a jump that works. Orgs covet it, major powers conduct raids to destroy it, pirates will pay through the nose for it, and clans conduct major operations risking whole fleets to bring home one precious fab or fuel purifier.

 

[GypsyComet]

I understand the low volume of traffic I'm talking about doesn't fit the Third Imperium model of "interstellar travel will be as common as international travel is today" found in later editions of the game. But when I look at the rules, I see an interstellar society with a low volume of ship traffic, which allows the rules as written for both space combat, the threat of piracy, and space encounters to dovetail nicely with one another.

I'm not saying this make sense for everyone else. But I like the idea of fewer ships traveling between the stars for several reasons -- including the increased risk of viable piracy -- per the rules as written.

Surface road patterns here in the US do make for an interesting comparison, particularly when you consider that we had only about 60% of the current population when Traveller was written.

I'll use a local example. State Highway 12 connects from near Stockton, CA to Fairfield and ultimately reaches Napa. Stockton (Pop 5) and Lodi (Pop 4) form a pair, with Lodi being Jump 2 from Rio Vista (Pop 3). Rio Vista is another Jump 2 to Suisun (Pop 4) which is the gateway to the Fairfield (Pop 5) Cluster (also including the Pop 4 Vacaville), but has Birds Landing (Pop 2) and Isleton (Pop 2) only Jump 1 away in different directions. Fairfield itself is then another Jump 2 to Napa (Pop 5), which has a string of Pop 2 and 3 backwaters attached to it.

Stockton for our comparison has a Navy Base, while Fairfield has a Scout Base, and Napa is a Rich world, while Vacaville is the closest point to another backwater jump before reaching the edge of the massive Sacramento Cluster.

The Stockton-Lodi-Rio Vista-Suisun-Fairfield Run gets a lot of traffic because it connects relatively important places in our simulation. By comparison, the traffic to Isleton is a bare trickle, and anyone showing up in Birds Landing gets discussed by the whole population. Suisun and Rio Vista are treated by many as just a fuel-and-go to get to the next stop, so despite a lot of traffic at the gas giants and ports, not many ship crews make it out of Startown. The same applies to Lodi at the other end, as most of the traffic stops at the gas giant and never even sees the main world...

 

[flykiller]

A pirate could take one fat trader a year and do very well for himself.

or he could sell his corsair and be set for life.

 

[creativehum]

or he could sell his corsair and be set for life.

So then we ask, "Why doesn't he do that?" And when we have an answer we love, he becomes a terrific character for the campaign.

Because the notion that all people live their lives by making rational choices to live comfortable lives flies in the face of human history and earth as we know it. We are the product of countless choices made by ancestors that made no sense if "avoiding poor life choices" is the criteria.

I'm constantly amazed at this weird strain of "making Traveller settings boring" -- always promoted by people who show up to tell others they're playing Traveller wrong -- that suggests there are no big, irrational, and colorful choices to be made by PCs, NPCs, or politics and societies as a whole.

Invariably such complaints invoke logic and rational behavior, to whit: the notion that "People don't behave that way," or "Societies don't behave that way." Such arguments always avoiding (somehow) the blunt fact that human beings are often terribly illogical and irrational in the choices they make and lives they build.

And, of course, as a side point, such shenanigans that are being discussed on this thread are part-and-parcel for the fiction that drew people to Traveller in the first place.

The piracy and raiding Kilemmal, Bill, and Walt Smith and others in this thread are discussing is:
a) found in the rules of the game
b) found in the fiction that inspired the game
c) found in actual human behavior throughout history

What sort of man would not sell his corsair, but continue wandering the stars looking for paydays instead of a settled life?

I suspect there are people who can't imagine such a person, let alone stop to ask the question. There's a dividing line right there between two kinds of Traveller settings two different people might make, based on that very issue.

 

[flykiller]

So then we ask, "Why doesn't he do that?"

and ... ?

 

[Enoki]

Actually, the big question with pirates would be "Where did they get the funds to start operating to begin with?"

It takes 50 to 100 million credits to outright own a ship. There is the cost of upkeep and ammunition (if missiles and such are used) along with other supplies.
They'd also need somewhere that allows them to get their ship maintained that won't turn them in or arrest them outright.

 

[flykiller]

It takes 50 to 100 million credits to outright own a ship.

well that's presuming they own it. they might not ...

There is the cost of upkeep and ammunition (if missiles and such are used) along with other supplies.

... which would drive up the cost of supplies ...

They'd also need somewhere that allows them to get their ship maintained that won't turn them in or arrest them outright.

... and the costs of maintenance. a lot. the "yard" would reason, "do the work get paid something, or do no work and turn them in and get paid even more - decisions, decisions", so you'd have to pay a lot for any yard work. especially if you have battle damage. and not to mention that the work may be substandard.

I really don't see how it could be done long-term. sure, the referee can say, "I like it, so I decree thus" - after all it's a game, can do whatever you want, could have jump-capable dragons with meson breath if you want - but then he'll have to overrule some other bit of logical requirement, and then overrule some other bit of logical consequence, and the chain of referee overrulings will expand until finally the players are rolling their eyes and the game is untenable. like when the cowboy fires his six gun once and four indians fall down dead, or when the skinny female beats up four big guys, makes for great cinematics but after a while it just gets annoying.

now some regular merchantman getting into financial trouble and deciding on a one-time pirate event, not only is that possible and doable it's even likely. fencing would be the only serious issue there - "psst, hey, I gotta gig for sale at 1/10 cost, no papers, you wannit?" - but that sort of thing probably would happen a lot.

 

[creativehum]

and ... ?

Really, it would have a be a character that makes sense to you.

And, honestly, if I make a suggestion, we'll enter another spiral of nonsense with you making assumptions and weak arguments as you try to poke holes into what I have written. You'll focus on one sentence or clause (or even a single word!) I have written, and ignore all the other content of the post. And when I ask questions about your assumptions to better understand where you are coming from, you will simply ignore my questions. Again. And again. And again.

I have found it isn't worth engaging with you at all. I won't bother anymore.

Actually, the big question with pirates would be "Where did they get the funds to start operating to begin with?"

It takes 50 to 100 million credits to outright own a ship. There is the cost of upkeep and ammunition (if missiles and such are used) along with other supplies.
They'd also need somewhere that allows them to get their ship maintained that won't turn them in or arrest them outright.

The rules suggest:

• Skipping with a ship.
• Stealing a ship.
• Hijacking a ship.

In other words, not owning the ship outright at all.

It is important to remember in all of this, that I am referencing the rules of Classic Traveller LBBs 1-3 and/or Proto-Traveller (so my assumptions might not work for the full Classic Traveller game line or later editions of the game). When one looks at the assumptions baked into the rules of LBBs 1-3/Proto-Traveller, one finds:

• Low interstellar traffic between distant words, many of them remote from each other not just because of distance but because of lack of trade and travel to many worlds.
• Small ships (the Kinunir-class is a battle cruiser.) ("Small" meaning relative to the much, much larger ships that show up in the second half of the Classic Traveller game line.)
• No huge naval ships or fleet that can enforce law and order and Imperial peace simply by showing up.
• Lack of centralized authority backed by power to enforce its will in the setting of play.
• An empire in decline.
• And so on...
• Plus, if desired, rules from 1977 edition of the rules which make all this even easier: Space Lanes, No Critical Hits for ship to ship battle, and so on...

These elements, combined with the communication-at-the-speed of travel rules, means that someone stealing a ship might travel several (or many, many) sub sectors. At that point the ship could be anywhere. Even if spotted, tracking it down becomes one problem. Capturing it becomes another. Gathering resources and the commitment to the task becomes a third.

Beyond the rules and assumptions in the text of the rules and adventures above, one can assume, as per history, governments or corporate entities backing pirates to disrupt worlds and/or trade of political enemies. Again, this presumes a setting not built around Pax Imperium. Some people are fine with that. Others aren't. I am.

 

[flykiller]

Really, it would have a be a character that makes sense to you.

nonsense. show us what you got. I post characters and situations all the time, it's easy, go for it.

 

[Condottiere]

There's no honour among thieves.

That corsair that you just rolled, had at least one previous owner, who wasn't careful enough to prevent your hostile takeover.

 

[flykiller]

That corsair that you just rolled, had at least one previous owner, who wasn't careful enough to prevent your hostile takeover.

oh that would make a great chargen minigame. influence, deceit, combat, pry the captain out of his bloody comfortable chair .... "it be my ship now. argh."

watch your back ....

 

[Timerover51]

As Piper's Space Viking has been referred to, it should be noted that the Space Viking ships in the book are NOT small. The Nemesis is 1000 feet in diameter, and converting that into Traveller dTons makes her over 1 Million dTons in size, with a crew that includes 500 ground and air fighters (300 ground and 200 air). The total crew runs over 800. Corsairs or pirates of that size are going to be very few and far between in Traveller.

The following quote is taken from: THE BUCCANEERS OF AMERICA A TRUE ACCOUNT OF THE FAMOUS ADVENTURES AND DARING DEEDS OF SIR HENRY MORGAN AND OTHER NOTORIOUS FREEBOOTERS OF THE SPANISH MAIN BY ALEXANDER ESQUEMELIN. This 1914 edition was edited and illustrated by GEORGE ALFRED WILLIAMS, as the original was written in Dutch. Esquemelin served as a barber-surgeon with the buccaneers in the period of which he writes.

The ship being well victualled, they deliberate whither they shall go to seek their desperate fortunes, and likewise agree upon certain articles, which are put in writing, which every one is bound to observe; and all of them, or the chiefest part, do set their hands to it. Here they set down distinctly what sums of money each particular person ought to have for that voyage, the fund of all the payments being what is gotten by the whole expedition; for otherwise it is the same law among these people as with other pirates. No prey, no pay. First, therefore, they mention how much the captain is to have for his ship; next, the salary of the carpenter, or shipwright, who careened, mended, and rigged the vessel: this commonly amounts to one hundred or one hundred and fifty pieces of eight, according to the agreement. Afterwards, for provisions and victualling, they draw out of the same common stock about two hundred pieces of eight; also a salary for the surgeon, and his chest of medicaments, which usually is rated at two hundred or two hundred and fifty pieces of eight. Lastly, they agree what rate each one ought to have that is either wounded or maimed in his body, suffering the loss of any limb; as, for the loss of a right arm, six hundred pieces of eight, or six slaves; for the left arm, five hundred pieces of eight, or five slaves; for a right leg, five hundred pieces of eight, or five slaves; for the left leg, four hundred pieces of eight, or four slaves; for an eye, one hundred pieces of eight, or one slave; for a finger,[41] the same as for an eye. All which sums are taken out of the common stock of what is gotten by their piracy, and a very exact and equal dividend is made of the remainder. They have also regard to qualities and places: thus the captain, or chief, is allotted five or six portions, to what the ordinary seamen have: the master's mate only two, and other officers proportionately to their employ: after which, they draw equal parts from the highest to the lowest mariner, the boys not being omitted, who draw half a share; because when they take a better vessel than their own, it is in the boys' duty to fire their former vessel, and then retire to the prize.

While during the Buccaneer Period, or what is called the Golden Age of Piracy in the late 1600s, the cargoes carried represented the most valuable items onboard, for the Barbary Pirates in the 1700s to early 1800s, the most valuable items onboard where the crew and passengers, who were held for ransom, while also being used as slaves. Those interested may wish to read up on the Barbary Pirates for an idea of how a corsair or pirate may operate if backed by a government.

 

[flykiller]

The Nemesis is 1000 feet in diameter, and converting that into Traveller dTons makes her over 1 Million dTons in size

reminds me of the "universe's longest party" ship in hgttg ... hey, there's a motivation for piracy - keep the party going.

because when they take a better vessel than their own, it is in the boys' duty to fire their former vessel, and then retire to the prize.

heh. capture a destroyer, dump the corsair ....

hg2 ship combat tables have the result, "ship vaporized". how would the ship's boys do that?

 

[flykiller]

now they are wolves-heads and wrecca.

warrior/wretch? I can see that.

 

[Kilgs]

There was a guy recently who won a million dollars in the lottery. The police busted him a few months later buying a quarter-million dollars of methamphetamines.

Logic does not always apply in real life. Especially when we're discussing (as mentioned above) the vagaries of human behavior. One thing that always bugs me about discussions of criminal gains is how folks talk about "retiring" once a score is done. Take a look at real life and you don't see a whole lot of retirements in the criminal sector by choice...
===
I was going to crunch some imaginary numbers to point out that a single planetary raid even on a low TL might net more than a month of trading but that essay scooped my feeble goals and accomplished far more.

But I'm completely down with the planetary raid thing. Let's shift a bit...
===

So hostages/insurance... let's discuss. Or, to take a modern day equivalent, ransoming cargo and ships as well. Most of the money that comes from such activities is paid by insurance companies. Let's say you can't sell the ship with much ease... but an insurance company may deal with you for a smaller amount. Who brokers these deals? Are they done outside Imperial Space? Clearly it's an Imperial crime so you don't want the Navy/MOJ breathing too hard down your neck. How do you make contact with the insurance company... a sleazy interstellar law firm in the Duchy of Stoner or independent planet? How do you show "proof of ship" are there contractors who negotiate or recover for insurance companies? Where do you store the ship while working out the details? Could be nation-states involved as well as you might need protection or, at a minimum, a bulwark against straight Imperial invasion.

Hostages are harder. Anyone important enough to be ransomed is on average likely to be an Imperial noble and that's not a good thing. I would guess a lot of corp execs hold some kind of patent. But insurance plans cover ransom demands all the time in our solar system so why not out there... An added risk for traveling in the Spinward Marches/Trojan's Reach or Gateway Domain.

I have an odd feeling that the Vargr have an entire economy based on ship/hostage ransoms... just a feeling, mind you. That Corridor sector is just soooo accessible.

What about Xboat acquisitions? Nah, too likely to involve the Navy. The whole point is to stay low profile enough that the insurance company/family/corporation thinks its easier and cheaper to simply pay the ransom rather than alert the Imperials.

And it can't be megacorporations since that's as bad as hitting an Imperial asset. They have access to the same type of "over-response" as the Navy.

So we have subsector corporations, system corporations, and maybe foreign governments or corporations. Those definitely work.

Another premium would be talent. A kidnapping of a renowned scientist? Sell him to the highest bidder...

Just rambling now but lots of possibilities.

 

[flykiller]

So we have subsector corporations, system corporations, and maybe foreign governments or corporations.

sounds like a job for CorpSec.

 

[kilemall]

There was a guy recently who won a million dollars in the lottery. The police busted him a few months later buying a quarter-million dollars of methamphetamines.

Logic does not always apply in real life. Especially when we're discussing (as mentioned above) the vagaries of human behavior. One thing that always bugs me about discussions of criminal gains is how folks talk about "retiring" once a score is done. Take a look at real life and you don't see a whole lot of retirements in the criminal sector by choice...
===
I was going to crunch some imaginary numbers to point out that a single planetary raid even on a low TL might net more than a month of trading but that essay scooped my feeble goals and accomplished far more.

But I'm completely down with the planetary raid thing. Let's shift a bit...
===

So hostages/insurance... let's discuss. Or, to take a modern day equivalent, ransoming cargo and ships as well. Most of the money that comes from such activities is paid by insurance companies. Let's say you can't sell the ship with much ease... but an insurance company may deal with you for a smaller amount. Who brokers these deals? Are they done outside Imperial Space? Clearly it's an Imperial crime so you don't want the Navy/MOJ breathing too hard down your neck. How do you make contact with the insurance company... a sleazy interstellar law firm in the Duchy of Stoner or independent planet? How do you show "proof of ship" are there contractors who negotiate or recover for insurance companies? Where do you store the ship while working out the details? Could be nation-states involved as well as you might need protection or, at a minimum, a bulwark against straight Imperial invasion.

Hostages are harder. Anyone important enough to be ransomed is on average likely to be an Imperial noble and that's not a good thing. I would guess a lot of corp execs hold some kind of patent. But insurance plans cover ransom demands all the time in our solar system so why not out there... An added risk for traveling in the Spinward Marches/Trojan's Reach or Gateway Domain.

I have an odd feeling that the Vargr have an entire economy based on ship/hostage ransoms... just a feeling, mind you. That Corridor sector is just soooo accessible.

What about Xboat acquisitions? Nah, too likely to involve the Navy. The whole point is to stay low profile enough that the insurance company/family/corporation thinks its easier and cheaper to simply pay the ransom rather than alert the Imperials.

And it can't be megacorporations since that's as bad as hitting an Imperial asset. They have access to the same type of "over-response" as the Navy.

So we have subsector corporations, system corporations, and maybe foreign governments or corporations. Those definitely work.

Another premium would be talent. A kidnapping of a renowned scientist? Sell him to the highest bidder...

Just rambling now but lots of possibilities.

One of us, can't remember which, was big on piracy as intercorporate low level warfare.

It occurs to me that most interstellar trading is local subsector, so I could see competing planetary interests, corporate/governmental/noble family/crime family looking to lock in a particular route/resource/market deal and 'outsourcing' the thuggery to make it happen their way.

Effectively like Merc tickets, without the gentlemanly repatriation.

 

[kilemall]

And for completeness' sake, a link to a form of piracy intended to avoid all that messy lurking/rundown/takeoff business.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=35443