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The Economy of the Imperium

vegas

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I am spending some time trying to get a handle on the size of the Imperium and the other superpowers (Aslan Hierate, Hiver Federation, etc.) I'd like to estimate each entity's population size and economy (per capita income) and from there estimate a rational military investment and deployment for each power.

So far this seems hopeless. There is some data in the wiki on this site, but I can't tie anything there back to any source at all, let alone a CT source. In fact, checking a few items I have found conflicting CT canon, so (no surprise) I don't think I can rely on the wiki.

Can anyone point to any CT canon on these topics? Or even other Traveller versions?

I could try a math exercise assuming average results using the world generation process, but at best that will get me population size, it won't get me per capita income/economy size.
 
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read somewhere that the average annual income of an imperial citizen was 18kCr. you could buiild on that with a modifier for tech level. supposedly the "average tech level" is 12, so set that as 1 and the others as 1.1, 0.9, etc. additional modifiers for port type, cultural influence, law level, etc. if all you want is raw numbers then it's not difficult.

'course that's for humans in a market economy. as to what hivers or aslan or zhodani do, not a clue.
 
read somewhere that the average annual income of an imperial citizen was 18kCr.
Any guess what the source of that might have been? I'd love to find it.

Looking at cost of living in B3 (food and housing), I guessed an implied typical annual income of Cr11-16k. Striker gives a per capita income of Cr14-16 for TL11 & 12 (Imperial Average).

But then I read in this forum a post by Aramis that the Striker (and TCS) economic figures were de-canonized (however that happens) which may or may not bear on that particular figure. (I sure did like that Striker was consistent with my educated guess based just on B3.) I'm still digging around, but I don't give myself much more hope of finding anything more so I am hoping someone hear knows something.
 
I am spending some time trying to get a handle on the size of the Imperium and the other superpowers (Aslan Hierate, Hiver Federation, etc.) I'd like to estimate each entity's population size and economy (per capita income) and from there estimate a rational military investment and deployment for each power.


Why?

Apart from destroying all previous canonical adventures and campaigns, along with innumerable personal adventures and campaigns, what possible benefit can be derived from such a project?

Can anyone point to any CT canon on these topics? Or even other Traveller versions?

Such canon and data does not exist and that lack is deliberate decision.

Traveller is a game about adventure in the Far Future and not macroeconomics in the Far Future.
 
The why is simple enough; I want MTU to make sense, and I want to borrow as much as I can from the OTU.

Economics is the prime mover for all things diplomatic & military. Megacorporations and tramp traders alike have to survive in the economic environment. I'd like to be able to sketch the economic situation underlying the OTU, as that will start to define the plausible different campaign scenarios for actors in the Imperium and surrounds.

Incomes tell you a lot about social status too, so the per capita income is relevant to roll playing characters too.

Such canon and data does not exist and that lack is deliberate decision.
Is that so? It did in Striker and TCS at one time. It wasn't replaced elsewhere? In any version?

That's my question. I've got your answer. Thanks for posting. If it really doesn't exist anywhere, I'll make something up.
 
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How much tax does the Imperium raise from each member world?

Does the Imperium actually own whole planets and if so how are they taxed?

When you can cheaply harvest the mineral resources of asteroids, use cheap fusion energy and maker technology to manufacture goods at TL15 how does that affect the lesser worlds economies?

Is taxation in the core sectors the same or different to taxation in the frontier sectors?

How are megacorporations taxed?

I am willing to wager my answers will be different to "yours". Make it up for YTU if you really need it.
 
A couple of canon places to look for info would be;
TNE : World Builder's Handbook
T4 : Pocket Empires

Both give models for considering such economies ( Pocket Empires is the easier of the two )

Both are available from FFE on the respective systems' cd's
 
... roll playing...


That's a Freudian slip if I ever saw one.

It did in Striker and TCS at one time.

No, it didn't. The rules in Striker and TCS still exist and you can still use them for their intended purposes. You can and indeed must use those rules when playing those wargames.

What you cannot do is to misapply the Striker and TCS rules to craft macroeconomic data concerning the Third Imperium.

It wasn't replaced elsewhere? In any version?

There are other Traveller games in other versions which include economic rules. Those rules too can only be applied to their particular situation and cannot be used to create a macroeconomic model of the Third Imperium.

Chargen is not demographics. Sysgen is not astrophysics. Worldgen is not planetography. Striker's and TCS' deliberately simplistic military budget calculations are not macroeconomics.

If it really doesn't exist anywhere, I'll make something up.

And when you're finished wasting your time doing so, remember, whatever you cobble together only applies to your Traveller universe and not to the OTU or any other Traveller universe.
 
It also depends on how you handle the Aslan in terms of what is the carrying capacity of a race of fairly large carnivores on a planet. The average mass for a male Aslan is given as about 100 kilograms, or about the size of the average lion. On good hunting grounds in Africa, you might have an average of 1 lion per square mile, 2.6 square kilometers. I assume that with some form of domesticated animal or animals, you might be able to push the population of an Aslan planet to maybe 2 per square mile of land area, assuming that it is neither a Water World or a Desert World. I cannot see Aslan favoring either, nor large numbers on planets requiring dome living. That will not give you any Aslan planets with populations of much more that a half-billion or so for the entire planet, and that would be the exceptional planet. For Earth, that would give a population of about 114 million Aslan over the entire planet. Even going to 1 Aslan per square kilometer only gets you to 148 million or so.

That is my personal view, and is not based on canon.
 
Chargen is not demographics. Sysgen is not astrophysics. Worldgen is not planetography.

could he call it econogen?

TCS) economic figures were de-canonized

heh. near as I can figure, they were decanonized because they generated too much money. and near as I can figure, they haven't been replaced because they were lower than historical real-world norms.

Any guess what the source of that might have been? I'd love to find it.

can't recall, but while trying to figure out how realistic were the lbb4 cadre mission finances I stumbled across the number and applied it to the mission background, so I know it's out there. in addition lbb1-3 are heavily based on 1970's united states prices, and iirc that was about the average wage then. so I'm fairly confident of it. I'll see if I can dig it up.

in addition you can simply calculate it via various prices. for example find out how much a simple rew cargo ship costs, find the equivilant traveller tech 8 simple ship cost, then compare that to present day average wages, and there you go.

That is my personal view, and is not based on canon.

heh. "canon" seems to be a personal view frozen in time.

Apart from destroying all previous canonical adventures and campaigns, along with innumerable personal adventures and campaigns, what possible benefit can be derived from such a project?

following the tradition of doing so? I thought the entire point of tne was to sweep away whole empires.
 
I've never been involved in TNE, but has it also a World Builder's Handbook, or do you mean MT's one?

sorry... my mistake
Its the 'World Tamer's Handbook'

I figure that Pocket Empires is canon for the Third Imperium as it's the ruleset that describes economies at the start of the Third Imperium, so unless the game universe assumptions changed in that interval, those rules used for year 0 should be good for use in the year 1105, etc.
 
I'd like to add that I pursued something similar when trying to determine the size of the spinward marches fleet. it became apparent that the imperium had more money than it could spend and that the real limitation was shipyard capacity. likely you'll find the same dynamic with regard to what you're doing, so I suggest that you just presume that 1) the imperium can pay for anything, but 2) the imperium can't always get the resources or people for anything. oh, and 3) base game action on 2.
 
It also depends on how you handle the Aslan in terms of what is the carrying capacity of a race of fairly large carnivores on a planet.........
That is my personal view, and is not based on canon.

Based on Kleiber's Law and typical energy transport between trophic levels, land that would support 40 vegetarian humans would only support 3 carnivorous Aslan, given the difference in average mass between Aslan and Human.
 
@Mike,

You are right, there is plenty of room for making up your own economic details, but we do know a bit about the OTU.

1) There is very low productivity growth. TL changes, a good proxy for productivity, take hundreds of years (much slower than Earth's recent experience).
2) There are very low interest rates. Starship loans are below 5%.
3) There is a highly integrated, interdependent intersteller economy. Otherwise the Long Night could not have happened, and the emphasis on trade throughout canon can't be easily explained.
4) Technology does not diffuse hardly at all. Otherwise TL would have converged within the Imperium over its 1000+ year history.

Given those four, we can deduce that the Imperium is a very low growth economy, with what aggregate expansion there is coming from population growth (if any) and incrementally opening up the frontier to exploit new natural resources. One more source for growth could be seeking gains from trade through exploiting differential comparative advantage. This perhaps explains the policy of Imperium to secure space and trade: these are the only material sources of economic growth for the empire.

How much tax does the Imperium raise from each member world? Is taxation in the core sectors the same or different to taxation in the frontier sectors? How are megacorporations taxed?
Taxation details could be used to drive political differences/intrigue in YTU, but probably aren't relevant to the aggregate economic situation. The OP is mostly just interested understanding the strategic setting of the Imperium in the canon.

Does the Imperium actually own whole planets and if so how are they taxed?
I think canon answers that fairly clearly: "The lmperium is best considered to rule the space that separates the stars rather than the worlds themselves. Individual worlds are left to their own devices, providing they pay their taxes, acknowledge the power of the Imperium, and obey the basic laws it promulgates. The lmperium wields power in space, protecting trade, encouraging travel and commerce, and controlling diplomatic relations." (S11 p6).

When you can cheaply harvest the mineral resources of asteroids, use cheap fusion energy and maker technology to manufacture goods at TL15 how does that affect the lesser worlds economies?
That is an interesting question, and every TU that makes sense will have to answer it. If we think TL15 gives us Star Trek-type wealth, that has dramatic implications for the polity. But I think the canon doesn't support that view: TL15 isn't disruptive that way.

I do think that gets to the weakness of the Striker economic rules. They seem to be consistent with B3 data for the average Imperium system, but there is no way that per capita incomes grow linear with TL. I think one could use Striker for everything else (military expenditure, distribution between forces, taxation by Imperium) but not that.

@Ishmael & McPerth
Thanks for the leads. I'll see if I can get a peek at any of those before I drop my $s. Do any of those sources get at how TLs affect income?
 
Can anyone point to any CT canon on these topics? Or even other Traveller versions?

I could try a math exercise assuming average results using the world generation process, but at best that will get me population size, it won't get me per capita income/economy size.

The economic numbers in the wiki's Trade map summary are generated from GT:Far Trader. This it the only canon source of data for economics for the Traveller Universe.

The second, and declared non-canon, source of economics would be the combination of Striker. This book contains the Gross World Product calculation. This is also CT, like you asked for.

Note that several written sources have economic data, but isn't generated by any sort of Imperium wide process, so will contradict any values you calculate using any Traveller (or other) system.
 
What you cannot do is to misapply the Striker and TCS rules to craft macroeconomic data concerning the Third Imperium....
We will have to agree to disagree on that. The section I am referring to is entitled "Integration with Traveller." I think that is as explicit as it gets this was intended to define the macroeconomic situation for systems in the Imperium. If it has really been de-canonized (as per Aramis) then we have to look some place else.

That will not give you any Aslan planets with populations of much more that a half-billion or so for the entire planet, and that would be the exceptional planet. For Earth, that would give a population of about 114 million Aslan over the entire planet. Even going to 1 Aslan per square kilometer only gets you to 148 million or so.

That is my personal view, and is not based on canon.
Thanks timerover. I appreciate that line of reasoning. Interestingly, AM1 doesn't show any pop differences for Aslan Worldgen, but that is the kind of factor I'm looking for canon-wise.

...1) the imperium can pay for anything, but 2) the imperium can't always get the resources or people for anything. oh, and 3) base game action on 2.
That is a very useful lead. I already had in mind that there is probably a significant qualified labor shortage in the Imperium to make sense of some of the wage data. Thanks for all your posts. They really help.
 
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The economic numbers in the wiki's Trade map summary are generated from GT:Far Trader.
WOW, tjoneslo, that page is tour de force! Fantastic work. Also, I never would have found that in the wiki based on the page name, so thanks for pointing it out.

It will take me some time to digest all that is there and do some checking against CT sources (I do understand there is some translation that needs to be done from GT to CT Credits for one), but at first blush that looks great. Two questions do jump out at me:

1) is GT part of the OTU or is its own offshoot? I don't really understand it's place in the canon.
2) There are some summary stats at the top of the page, among them:
Total GSP 1,153,811,330 billion
Trade 622,251 billion
Does GT spit that out, or is it an error? Trade is <0.06% of the economy? If that is the case, no empire should care at all about protecting trade. It is economically irrelevant. (Maybe some individual systems care, but it just couldn't be an empire-wide matter.)
The second, and declared non-canon, source of economics would be the combination of Striker.
Can you elaborate on that. I have seen Aramis write the same thing. If you know, when and how did Striker's rules get "declared non-canon"? I'm just curious how that works.
 
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Can you elaborate on that. I have seen Aramis write the same thing. If you know, when and how did Striker's rules get "declared non-canon"? I'm just curious how that works.

Marc banned them (the Econ rules from Striker and TCS) from use in T20. That's how I became aware of it. Hunter quoth Marc. Marc also (several times) noted that they're not valid for the OTU on the TML.

Striker itself is canon, except for that chunk of rules.
Likewise, TCS is canon, except for the tournament rules including the economics.
 
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Thanks Aramis! (I was hoping you might drop in if I kept writing your name. Speak of the devil ;)

Is there any other guidance in the canon on economics that you are aware of? So far in this thread I have got:
GT - Far Trader
TNE - World Tamer's Handbook
T4 - Pocket Empires

Also, which is the best?
 
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