The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[savage]

Depot Corr1511 Home of the Corridor Fleet and the largest Depot per Canon.
Population 1000, TL E, Importance 1, i could continue...other T5 and earlier canon TLF...

Why try to get it fixed? I could go on. I can only assume the information is incorrect with intent, like area 51.
I started rewriting all of the Depots 10 years ago on my site. I suppose I'll have to continue.

 

[Vladika]

Yeah. go into a Norfolk bar and tell the self proclaimed real navy that in the future they will be auxilaries. :rofl::CoW:

Is that a punch line?

Born and raised in Norfolk. That would definitely get you punched!

 

[Drakon]

I think there is some drift here.

Canon: I want to stay as canonical as possible for Lemish. I have a general plan of writing all this up as a publishable set of adventures. I do not know a lot of the canonical 3I, as I have always used ATUs when I played. The patent of nobility cards have served as an impetus to learn more and it is a fasinating study.

Part of the fun is attempting to make sense of the disparate data we have. KInd of like a game of Liar's Club, figuring out how 300 people produce 6 RUs worth of resources is part of the fun. It does have to make sense, and it is obvious based on a series of priorioties, not all of them realism based. While the gaming universe has to be compatiable with present known physics, and a suspension of disbelief should be held to a minimum, it is ultimately a gaming arena.

Some of this is erata, simple human mistakes, that will creep into any human endevour. Some of it is a simple lack of detail, leaving the history open to allow others to possibly build an unknown commonwealth during the troubled years after the Rebellion. Some of it is to keep the area interesting for games and adventures. And some of it was written to get the later history to work out in a particular fashion, to shift the gaming universe into a different direction. Just like in the real universe, whether we like those changes or not, it is the universe we, at least I, are stuck with.

I get that some of you don't like the inconsistencies, as you see them, you've made your points clear. The Vargr are too weak and uncoordinated to mount a major offensive. And Troy could never have been taken by the Greeks.

Having said that, I may have missed it earlier, but someone corrected my 60th Fleet squadrons.

So, 12-16 battleships or battletenders, 42-56 cruisers or carriers, and 6 or 8 tankers.

My next question is yard space availablity. How many of these ships will be in the yards, or awaiting yard space when the order to abandon Corridor came in.

Another question, no destroyers or anti coursair duty?

I am still looking at population and tax numbers, to work out the rest of Lemish' defenses. I will get back to this tomorrow.

 

[rancke]

I get that some of you don't like the inconsistencies, as you see them, you've made your points clear. The Vargr are too weak and uncoordinated to mount a major offensive.

Well, as I said in another post, I could see the Irrgh Manifest (or rather, corsairs from the Irrgh Manigfest), make life really difficult in Lemish and The Narrows though it wouldn't go as fast as portrayed. But the Glory of Taarskoerzn and the Vaenggvae corsairs, no.

And Troy could never have been taken by the Greeks.

Why not? It took them long enough. Lay siege to the city and starve it out. Shouldn't take more than a few years. Of course, keeping the Greek troops fed after the first year would require shipping in supplies.

My next question is yard space availablity. How many of these ships will be in the yards, or awaiting yard space when the order to abandon Corridor came in.

One in 26 if they run a really tight maintenance schedule. One in 24 or 25 if they allow for slippage. Or perhaps the canonical 14 days include enough extra time to account of random delays.

Then the maintenance shedule is interrupted and 14 days later all the ships are available. Some of them will have to jump with unmaintained drives, but the crew are in the Navy now, so they'll just have to grin and bear it.

Another question, no destroyers or anti coursair duty?

Why not? As many or as few as you like. We have no figures for how many auxiliaries a fleet has, so anything goes as long as you think it's plausible. That includes destroyers and other escorts. A couple of squadrons worth of escorts? Somewhere around a squadron per combat vessel squadron? A dozen squadrons? A score? Who knows?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Depot Corr1511 Home of the Corridor Fleet and the largest Depot per Canon.
Population 1000, TL E, Importance 1, i could continue...other T5 and earlier canon TLF...

Why try to get it fixed? I could go on. I can only assume the information is incorrect with intent, like area 51.

I can tell you one thing for free. A base that supports six or more full Imperial fleets has a LOT more personnel than a measly 1000. The US Navy has 3 shore-based personnel for each shipboard crew slot and my estimate of an average fleet comes to around 75,000 crew slots. That's 225,000 groundbased personnel per fleet, and while some of them may live elsewhere than Depot, we're definitely talking hundreds of thousands for Depot's (entirely transient) population. If the naval academy is comparable to Annapolis, the students and staff alone amounts to 5000 per fleet.

The MT writers were following the not so fine Traveller tradition of paying no attention whatsoever to their sense of proportion.


Hans

 

[savage]

I think there is some drift here.

Canon: I want to stay as canonical as possible for Lemish. I have a general plan of writing all this up as a publishable set of adventures. I do not know a lot of the canonical 3I, as I have always used ATUs when I played. The patent of nobility cards have served as an impetus to learn more and it is a fasinating study.

Part of the fun is attempting to make sense of the disparate data we have. KInd of like a game of Liar's Club, figuring out how 300 people produce 6 RUs worth of resources is part of the fun. It does have to make sense, and it is obvious based on a series of priorioties, not all of them realism based. While the gaming universe has to be compatiable with present known physics, and a suspension of disbelief should be held to a minimum, it is ultimately a gaming arena.

Some of this is erata, simple human mistakes, that will creep into any human endevour. Some of it is a simple lack of detail, leaving the history open to allow others to possibly build an unknown commonwealth during the troubled years after the Rebellion. Some of it is to keep the area interesting for games and adventures. And some of it was written to get the later history to work out in a particular fashion, to shift the gaming universe into a different direction. Just like in the real universe, whether we like those changes or not, it is the universe we, at least I, are stuck with.

I get that some of you don't like the inconsistencies, as you see them, you've made your points clear. The Vargr are too weak and uncoordinated to mount a major offensive. And Troy could never have been taken by the Greeks.

Having said that, I may have missed it earlier, but someone corrected my 60th Fleet squadrons.
My next question is yard space availablity. How many of these ships will be in the yards, or awaiting yard space when the order to abandon Corridor came in.

Another question, no destroyers or anti coursair duty?

I am still looking at population and tax numbers, to work out the rest of Lemish' defenses. I will get back to this tomorrow.

We're not steering you wrong. Whenever possible we will state canon.
Yard space is based on population. Although, one unclear point is the amount of automation available at TL12.

The INS Blue Whale is transferred to you on 1105.105 via 2 Fleet Tenders.

The Achilles class has is a 21 deck smooth, cylinder with modular low berth units (removed) and a lower aft jump drive (removed). The Bridge dome is on the front top of the cylinder with crew facilities.
You receive a letter by x-boat 2 months later mentioning the weapon systems on the former INS Blue Whale we're unintentionally not removed to meet the delivery schedule. Please, return them at your earliest convenience.

 

[savage]

I can tell you one thing for free. A base that supports six or more full Imperial fleets has a LOT more personnel than a measly 1000. The US Navy has 3 shore-based personnel for each shipboard crew slot and my estimate of an average fleet comes to around 75,000 crew slots. That's 225,000 groundbased personnel per fleet, and while some of them may live elsewhere than Depot, we're definitely talking hundreds of thousands for Depot's (entirely transient) population. If the naval academy is comparable to Annapolis, the students and staff alone amounts to 5000 per fleet.

The MT writers were following the not so fine Traveller tradition of paying no attention whatsoever to their sense of proportion.


Hans

Hans,
I came to the same conclusion 10 years ago, hence the stress at T5 stats. IMTU Depot becomes a refugee target as everything that flies floods the system following various naval assets.

I neglected to mention this is a T5 green system without travel restrictions. LOL It's true if you're IN military. A vacation on Depot is not recommended. In Foder's Travel Guide to Corridor it clearly states "severe penalties for incursions." Clearly, one hand of the government does not know what the other is doing.

 

[savage]

Support of large cheap liners

We have MT military ships with thousands of crew members per ship going back to CT.
Judges Guild had the Brlliant Gems Modularship. Perhaps the largest deckplan ship with 3 modules. Total capacity was 8,400 passengers.
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Conversions-T20/Brilliant_Gem_Coreship.html

Canon support of big ships includes the The BH-14 (700kdt) in MT hits 83,865 crew members. At TL 15 it drops to 71,396 crew. We build those at Depot. Yes..we do. A squadron of 12 of this Dreadnaught requires over a million crew. Over 17TCr each. Someone is paying for this stuff.


"Only 500 Vargr corsairs ensign?"

Depot now shows 3 gas giants an increase versus DG's map. It looks like DG as canon is going away. But I still think it's a resource for those that have it.

 

[Vladika]

http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Conversions-T20/Brilliant_Gem_Coreship.html

The coreships utilizes a highly secretive TL16 power plant and fuel purification plant doubling the performance of the jump drive fuel.
It requires a TL16 engineering crew to maintain this plant otherwise performance will drop from mistakes to J2 and max fuel requirements. Missjump opportunities will increase to 10% of all jumps.

OK... So, military "secret" or not, what are those stats on this Power Plant? In the past I've seen suggestions of half the dtonnes of a comparable TL15 Power Plant but at full fuel usage.

If we're going for TL16 I think we need some agreed upon stats here on CotI.

There are a few TL16 worlds and lets not count the Darrians out entirely.

 

[savage]

OK... So, military "secret" or not, what are those stats on this Power Plant? In the past, I've seen suggestions of half the dtonnes of a comparable TL15 Power Plant but at full fuel usage.

If we're going for TL16 I think we need some agreed upon stats here on CotI.

There are a few TL16 worlds and lets not count the Darrians out entirely.

Vladika, First my apologies. IMTU I move to 1/2 fuel "home rule" at TL16 but where refining and usage are improved.
My intention was to remind everyone not of the TL but the various scales some CT/MT ships. We can discuss the 1/2 fuel "home rule" and it's usage. I have not looked in T5 to see, if it's mentioned.

My stats we're unchanged from TL15 with the fuel improvement for power, jump and refinement as the result. A breakthrough that requires an updated power plant.

 

[mike wightman]

MT already has rules for reduced jump fuel usage which can be ported to HG/CT with little difficulty.
TL.....fuel %/jump number
9-16.....10
17..........8
18..........6
19..........4
20..........2
21..........1

This is one of my standard house rules.

You can use MT to extrapolate the stats for a HG TL16 fusion power plant % and TL17 armour %.

 

[Drakon]

Why not? As many or as few as you like. We have no figures for how many auxiliaries a fleet has, so anything goes as long as you think it's plausible. That includes destroyers and other escorts. A couple of squadrons worth of escorts? Somewhere around a squadron per combat vessel squadron? A dozen squadrons? A score? Who knows?


Hans

First off, destroyers are not auxiliaries. They may have the smallest popguns, (aside from PT boats) but they are warships, they are mobile weapons platforms. Taffy 3 proved how effective even these puny crafts can be. As Vladika and I both can attest, there are places where calling them "auxiliaries" will not be greeted favorably. And rightly so.

Second, drawing from my RL naval experiences, naval ships have different levels of maintenance and yard availability. You have your standard 2 week refit period, but you also had Overhauls where the ship is usually take apart and put back together completely. Overhauls, for RL naval vessels, take from a year and a half to 2 or even 3 years, depending on the size and age of the vessel. These are the ships I am most concerned with. The ones that will be completed the week after the orders are given, they will most likely tail the rest of the fleet back to Core.

Third: We've talked about the different squadrons, now what class of ships would man those squadrons in the years leading up to the Rebellion?

 

[Drakon]

Yard space is based on population. Although, one unclear point is the amount of automation available at TL12.

Good question.

The INS Blue Whale is transferred to you on 1105.105 via 2 Fleet Tenders.

The Achilles class has is a 21 deck smooth, cylinder with modular low berth units (removed) and a lower aft jump drive (removed). The Bridge dome is on the front top of the cylinder with crew facilities.
You receive a letter by x-boat 2 months later mentioning the weapon systems on the former INS Blue Whale we're unintentionally not removed to meet the delivery schedule. Please, return them at your earliest convenience.

This will work great. And we will get right on decommissioning those weapons systems in a bit, (11 years? )

 

[savage]

MT already has rules for reduced jump fuel usage which can be ported to HG/CT with little difficulty.
TL.....fuel %/jump number
9-16.....10
17..........8
18..........6
19..........4
20..........2
21..........1

This is one of my standard house rules.

You can use MT to extrapolate the stats for a HG TL16 fusion power plant % and TL17 armour %.

Thanks. I knew it came from somewhere Except, going for a 50% cut was a CT home rule. I merged the two and went for a straight 50% at TL16. At the upper tech levels we see dramatic improvements in Jump Technologies.

I also did various spinal mount improvements.

 

[rancke]

First off, destroyers are not auxiliaries. They may have the smallest popguns, (aside from PT boats) but they are warships, they are mobile weapons platforms. Taffy 3 proved how effective even these puny crafts can be. As Vladika and I both can attest, there are places where calling them "auxiliaries" will not be greeted favorably. And rightly so.

Is a game forum dedicated to a game that takes place 3000 years in the future one of those places?

Fine, I have no desire to offend you or Michael. Classic Era destroyers are small escorts. Most escorts are not combat vessels as the Imperial Navy defines them. What term would you like me to use when referring to warships that are not combat vessels?

Second, drawing from my RL naval experiences, naval ships have different levels of maintenance and yard availability. You have your standard 2 week refit period, but you also had Overhauls where the ship is usually take apart and put back together completely. Overhauls, for RL naval vessels, take from a year and a half to 2 or even 3 years, depending on the size and age of the vessel. These are the ships I am most concerned with. The ones that will be completed the week after the orders are given, they will most likely tail the rest of the fleet back to Core.

All I know is what I've gathered from game material, and that is that ships are launched, spend two weeks per year in annual maintenance and get relegated to secondary purposes after several decades, with nary a mention of major maintenance in between. If you want this picture refined, you're better qualified to do so than I. Good luck.

Third: We've talked about the different squadrons, now what class of ships would man those squadrons in the years leading up to the Rebellion?

I already expressed my opinion: IMO BatRons are battleships and battletenders, CruRons are cruisers and carriers.


Hans

 

[savage]

First off, destroyers are not auxiliaries.

Most of us take destroyers very seriously. Especially, when a family member served on one. I recall someone trying to convince crew on the Iowa to transfer to the "real" navy. But that is another story.

You have your standard 2 week refit period, but you also had Overhauls where the ship is usually take apart and put back together completely. Overhauls, for RL naval vessels, take from a year and a half to 2 or even 3 years, depending on the size and age of the vessel.

Third: We've talked about the different squadrons, now what class of ships would man those squadrons in the years leading up to the Rebellion?

The Traveller sees various levels of refits, maintenance and of course age.

Batron
BB-12 Battleships (300kdt)


VF-12 Carriers (100kdt) - 400 x 50dt fighters

Cruron
CA-12 Armored Cruisers (100kdt)
Vrysonu missil cruiser (TL12) (100kdt)

Flt Escorts:
ED12 FLT Escort Destoyers (10kdt)

Colonials Navies
Darmine class colonial light carrier (TL12) - (35kdt)
Vishe class light monitor (TL12) 1400dt

The Vargr have the 30kdt Aek Nazs battle cruisers and Foghoks heavy cruisers - TL11. And lots of 400 and 200 dt corsairs.

 

[aramis]

Canon states Destroyers are not counted as "Warships" in the 3I... Nor are Escorts. Which basically means that the 3I only counts cruisers and battleships as warships. (Destroyers and Escorts are auxiliaries in the IN.)

Getting offended by it won't change it.

 

[savage]

Getting offended by it won't change it.

We all know it Aramis. I don't think anyone is offended. However, we are joking about those that would get upset.

Clearly, this is an effort in game mechanics (TCS for example) to separate major spinal mount combatants from the smaller ships. As some point there is probably a book that says "warships can do this or that...".

 

[Vladika]

Fine, I have no desire to offend you or Michael. Classic Era destroyers are small escorts. Most escorts are not combat vessels as the Imperial Navy defines them. What term would you like me to use when referring to warships that are not combat vessels?

You aren't offending me Hans. We differ in what to call a smaller combatant in a Large Ship Universe is all. How about we settle on something like "Lite Combatant" or "Lite Warship"?

I use Auxiliary in the current sense of the word, but do recognize it has held differing meanings historically. Such as the fighting formations accompanying Romans Legions. (Cavalry, Slingers etc.)

All I know is what I've gathered from game material, and that is that ships are launched, spend two weeks per year in annual maintenance and get relegated to secondary purposes after several decades, with nary a mention of major maintenance in between. If you want this picture refined, you're better qualified to do so than I. Good luck.

I too have only seen this explanation in the written Traveller material I am familiar with.

I already expressed my opinion: IMO BatRons are battleships and battletenders, CruRons are cruisers and carriers.

Why would Carriers be in a CruRon? Just interested in your point of view.

 

[Dagrill]

Just because it is canon it doesn't mean it is right. The product that provide us with the 1000 ships in a sector figure is also an MT product and just as much MT canon and Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium. So given one MT product that agrees with previously published material and one MT product that contradicts previously published material, and adding an excellent handwave for the four-ship squadrons, I submit that a) there is a choice of what canon to go with (RbS or FSotSI) and b) it's an obvious choice to go with the one that has backward compatibility.

And when you think about it, there can't be many intact squadrons left in the Imperium after several years of Rebellion. Four-ship squadrons may well be full-strength squadrons of the Third Imperium in 1120. That doesn't mean they represent full-strength squadrons of the Third Imperium in 1116.

I didn't say the auxiliaries weren't there (quite the contrary). I said that auxiliaries didn't count towards the number of combat vessels. Seeing as auxiliaries are not combat vessels, I think that makes sense.
Hans

Hi Hans,

I've slept on this and I have the following proposal, 4 Capital ships per Bat/Cru squadron is the peacetime establishment, they are fleshed out with ships kept at ready status at Depots & recalled reservists in the event of a local war to 8 ships per squadron, some critical squadrons are kept at 8 ships per squadron, like the one in 5 Sisters.

Destroyers are large escorts (combat ships) and are included in the numbers of ships available, whilst the Midu Agashaam is 3kt, I think most Destroyers are 5-10kt, the largest approaching light cruiser size are flotilla leaders.

Only about 25% of the Imperium Naval Budget is spent on maintaining existing ships & crews, the rest is the support organisation, naval intelligence, R&D, New ship construction & trials & maintaining naval bases & depots.

The MT squadrons are demonstrating the effect of a multi front war, loss of budget & replacements and individual captains making decisions to change sides, go pirate, or just go home & defend their home system.

Hope this seems more logical

Regards

David