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The Imperial Corridor Fleet

There are some calls in worldbuilding that I feel would be the job of the planetary ruler, and some part of the Imperial representative. Putting these in one person makes things easier not only from a worldbuilding perspective, but also politically expedient as well.
Yes but according to the UWP, the people in charge are the civil servants. If the world ruler was in charge, the government would be an autocracy (type A or B), and if the Imperial high noble was in charge, it would be a type 6 government.

I suppose the baron could work on staging a coup. :p


Hans
 
Where is all that shipping coming from?
If someone is willing to pay for all those passages, the ships would be built. I jut don't think there are enough people who can afford interstellar travel or can get someone else to pay for their passage.


Hans
 
The others are AsRon (Assault), CarRon(Carrier) and DesRon(Destroyer).
AssaultRons I've mentioned, Carriers I'd class with cruisers (it's the same tonnage range anyway), and destroyers are not combat vessels.

Fighting ships mentions the Midu Agashaam destroyers as deployed in oversize squadrons of 20 ships.
It also says that Tigresses and Kokirraks are deployed in 8-ship squadrons. Also, RbS says fleets have 8-10 squadron and imply that they average 62½ ships. You can't get 62 ships into 10 squadrons if you can only fit in four ships per squadron.

Each Ron should have 4 ships of the named type (except Destroyer), a similar number of Escorts, a Tanker and a Supply Ship and a couple of Scouts (this role can be fulfilled by Escorts) for 12 per Ron.

The 4-ship squadrons are from an MT product and pertain to a setting that has been at war for years. I take them to be what's left after half the ships in the Imperium have been destroyed.

Auxiliaries are not counted in the size of a squadron.

I'm going to say Fleet HQ needs double the Couriers as assigned squadrons, again that's MTU and a flagship, which in the Forgotten War is an old Cruiser with no J drive for D268, but seems rather appropriate as a guardship for Lemish.
This is beyond canon, AFAIK, but I would go with half a dozen squadrons of fleet couriers per fleet. They're vital to command and control in times of war and they cost a trifle compared to the rest of the navy's ships.


Hans
 
One question, do you believe all of statistics you see published on COTI with Zhodani spies and Vargr packs?

Also good to see a Starship and Crown on the thread. I recalled seeing a couple people properly decorated.

One last question, if the Corridor Fleet went to Depot and did not go to Core. Where do you think it is?

Hi,

not sure which stats you are referring to, but just on the number of people travelling seems to be a hornet's nest.

I see the four fleets that make up Corridor Fleet as the best in the Imperium, each containing 3Rons of TLF J5 Battle Tenders and 6Rons of TL15 J5 Cruisers or Carriers as well as a Tanker Ron. In my mind this is Strephron's finest fleet & the strategic reserve for the Core/Spinward border. (with the plus it sees more action than the Guard Fleet at Core).

My own thought as to their movement, which requires Norris' assistance is a move to Deneb and then via Reft across the Great Rift to strike Ilelish from the rear, so I do see them attacking Dulinor, just not under Lucan's command.
Whilst some assets might be added from other fleets, it all needs to be J5 to ross the Rift quickly, all the J3 stuff would be left it Corridor.

Incidentally I have read that Strephron delegated taxation to the Domain's, so the Fleets would be funded locally.

Thanks Garon Dagrill was my first Traveller character (HG) in 1982 and a Naval Commander(O5), MCG, I jut love the patent of nobility and wondering if I should subscribe to the moot...

Regards

David
 
It also says that Tigresses and Kokirraks are deployed in 8-ship squadrons. Also, RbS says fleets have 8-10 squadron and imply that they average 62½ ships. You can't get 62 ships into 10 squadrons if you can only fit in four ships per squadron.

The 4-ship squadrons are from an MT product and pertain to a setting that has been at war for years. I take them to be what's left after half the ships in the Imperium have been destroyed.

Auxiliaries are not counted in the size of a squadron.
Hans

Hi Hans,

I have FSotSI the MT product & I queried the Squadron size a couple of years ago (I thought 8 as well originally), someone (possibly Aramis) confirmed it was a canon product and represented the FULL STRENGTH squadrons of the 3I.
(I still have an 8 ship Tigress squadron in my Five Sister's sub-sector, with one at each Naval base & one rotated through Andor, Candory).

I count Auxilaries, Fleets don't go anywhere without supplies & in a real battle are just as likely to get shot up.

I don't think I've ever posted so much on a single subject before!

Kind Regards

David
 
Hi,

not sure which stats you are referring to, but just on the number of people travelling seems to be a hornet's nest.

I see the four fleets that make up Corridor Fleet as the best in the Imperium, each containing 3Rons of TLF J5 Battle Tenders and 6Rons of TL15 J5 Cruisers or Carriers as well as a Tanker Ron. In my mind this is Strephron's finest fleet & the strategic reserve for the Core/Spinward border. (with the plus it sees more action than the Guard Fleet at Core).

My own thought as to their movement, which requires Norris' assistance is a move to Deneb and then via Reft across the Great Rift to strike Ilelish from the rear, so I do see them attacking Dulinor, just not under Lucan's command.
Whilst some assets might be added from other fleets, it all needs to be J5 to ross the Rift quickly, all the J3 stuff would be left it Corridor.

Incidentally I have read that Strephron delegated taxation to the Domain's, so the Fleets would be funded locally.

Thanks Garon Dagrill was my first Traveller character (HG) in 1982 and a Naval Commander(O5), MCG, I jut love the patent of nobility and wondering if I should subscribe to the moot...

Regards

David

I agree with the assessment. Please, join the moot and support COTI.
That being said, I like the strategy but I don't see CF making it to the front line.
 
Hi Hans,

I have FSotSI the MT product & I queried the Squadron size a couple of years ago (I thought 8 as well originally), someone (possibly Aramis) confirmed it was a canon product and represented the FULL STRENGTH squadrons of the 3I.
(I still have an 8 ship Tigress squadron in my Five Sister's sub-sector, with one at each Naval base & one rotated through Andor, Candory).

I count Auxilaries, Fleets don't go anywhere without supplies & in a real battle are just as likely to get shot up.

I don't think I've ever posted so much on a single subject before!

Kind Regards

David

Traditionally Auxiliaries are not counted as part of a unit squadron. DesRon = 6 to 8 Destroyers. Added to that a Destroyer Tender, which is more of a base ship and does not maneuver during fleet exercises or battle.

Then there is the DesRon "slice" of the Fleet support and supply vessels. They will have Replenishment Tankers & Ammunition Ships which may maneuver with the Fleet. Heavy Repair Ships, General Stores Ships, Combat Stores Ships, Hospital Ships etc., Are more base ships in support of the Fleet.

Point being, these ships are required to support the DesRon, but not exclusively.
 
I have FSotSI the MT product & I queried the Squadron size a couple of years ago (I thought 8 as well originally), someone (possibly Aramis) confirmed it was a canon product and represented the FULL STRENGTH squadrons of the 3I.
Just because it is canon it doesn't mean it is right. The product that provide us with the 1000 ships in a sector figure is also an MT product and just as much MT canon and Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium. So given one MT product that agrees with previously published material and one MT product that contradicts previously published material, and adding an excellent handwave for the four-ship squadrons, I submit that a) there is a choice of what canon to go with (RbS or FSotSI) and b) it's an obvious choice to go with the one that has backward compatibility.

And when you think about it, there can't be many intact squadrons left in the Imperium after several years of Rebellion. Four-ship squadrons may well be full-strength squadrons of the Third Imperium in 1120. That doesn't mean they represent full-strength squadrons of the Third Imperium in 1116.

I count Auxilaries, Fleets don't go anywhere without supplies & in a real battle are just as likely to get shot up.
I didn't say the auxiliaries weren't there (quite the contrary). I said that auxiliaries didn't count towards the number of combat vessels. Seeing as auxiliaries are not combat vessels, I think that makes sense.


Hans
 
Traditionally Auxiliaries are not counted as part of a unit squadron. DesRon = 6 to 8 Destroyers. Added to that a Destroyer Tender, which is more of a base ship and does not maneuver during fleet exercises or battle.

Destroyers are auxiliaries themselves. None of the ships in a destroyer squadron counts towards the number of combat vessels.


Hans
 
Unfortunately, there is no explanation for that rule, so we don't know how to refine it when we go from the level of detail of the [RbS:37] tables (very crude) to the level of detail of the Striker rules (a little less crude). We can conjecture what's behind it, but that's all it will be: conjecture.

Is it ten times more expensive to maintain a trooper on worlds with air breathing problems? Or do you only need one tenth the number of troopers on a world with air problems? The ramifications of the two explanations are very different (In the second case you get a concomittant increase in the navy budget when you reduce the army budget -- total military spending remains the same).

If it's the first, is the rule actually reasonable? Does it really cost ten times as much to maintain a vacc suited trooper as it takes to maintain a freely breathing trooper? And if it costs ten times as much to maintain a vacc suited trooper (atmospheres 0, 1, 2, and 3), does it also cost ten times as much to maintain a filter-masked trooper (atmospheres 4, 7, and 9) or an air-masked trooper (atmosphere A)? And is it really no more expensive to maintain a trooper in a corrosive or an insidious atmosphere than in a vacuum?

And looking at TL15 armies, is it really ten times more expensive to maintain a vacc-suited trooper than a battle-dressed one?

I think perhaps those rules are more suited to making up counters for an FFW scale boardgame than for serious setting-building. (And could use some refinement too :smirk:).

My advice would be to take inspiration from the Striker rules1 and pretty much ignore the RgS rules.
1 Though not to follow them slavishly.

Hans

Let's start with breathable world troops...

Let's see - a typical trooper has a salary of Cr300, and dismal lodgings (equal Cr60/mo on the economy), and is getting fed, usually, Cr140 worth of home prep, but buying in wholesale, that's probably Cr70. Add some incidentals, like the provided hand soap and TP in the barracks, and data service... we get to about Cr500 per month per private; NCO's are easily double, and SNCO's triple that.

Gear replacement on a 5 year schedule makes troops considerably more expensive. Assuming a 50% wholesale discount, and 100 rounds per month continued fam fire in barracks (rounded up next clip)...
ACR: Cr1000, clips x 4 = Cr120/mo
CES: Cr1000
Short Range Commo (TL8+): Cr75
Tent: Cr 200 per 2 men
IR and LI goggles: Cr500 each. Assume one or the other.
Uniforms, office/barracks/dress - probably about Cr200
Weather Gear: Cr200
Bayonet: Cr10
Backpack: probably Cr50.

About KCr3.2 per 5 years about Cr55/month for gear replacement, and about Cr120/month in fam-fire.

Add salary of Cr300, plus share of barracks space, and said trooper is about Cr500/mo.

Now, for the vacuum trooper...
Add LS: the Oxygen tank listed isn't a rebreather; we can get about 10x the efficiency. Which leads to about 1/13Td and Cr150 of air for the whole month, assuming a 50% bulk discount, on a world where it's readily created. If we assume a neighboring world, that's a base of Cr1500/Td, probably bought at an average of 80% that, then shipped, for about KCr2.2/Td, and that's about Cr170 per month. For simplicity, we'll assume the air is always available within one KCr1/ton shipping hop.

Filters: we'll assume the filter mask is good for a month - and use it as the basis for the filtration scrubbers for the suits. Cr10/mo

Combat Armor - the standard for vacuum troops - KCr20. Cr330/mo
The add-ins for vision are no difference from standalones cost-wise.
The Tent is replaced with a vacuum tent Cr2000 (Cr33/mo, per 2 men)

So we get an extra Cr600 per month or so, adding incidentals like air lost out the airlocks.

A bit over double the cost per trooper.

And that doesn't include hazardous assignment pay - which vacuum should - and that should be about Cr30 for a basic trooper.

Jr. NCO's and veteran privates (PFC's) should be about double the base cost - housing, additional gear, increased pay - but the vacuum additions don't get multiplied. NCO's triple, Senior NCOs and junior officers about quadruple. Specialists add about Cr50 to Cr100 per month - additional training and gear.

High Energy Heavy Weapons troops add considerably more - FGMP's are KCr120+ and thus add upwards of KCr2/mo.

So, logically, it needs to be both increased costs (about 2-3 times the costs), and fewer needed (the vacuum or acids prevent long term occupation of the outlying areas), as well as fewer tolerated by the locals, plus the deletion of the wet and air portions of the Army, leaving only the COACC and Ground components.
 
Just what would, or would not be, a combat ship, or an auxiliary ship, 3000 years from now is up for grabs.
No, because the term 'combat vessel' is defined in the same passage that says a sector has about 1000 of them.

"Each sector of the Imperium theoretically has a group of fleets numbering about 1000 ships. This number includes combat vessels such as cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts; it does not include auxiliaries, support ships, and scouts." [RbS:27]​
The only real wiggle room there is what escorts are included in the 'some escorts'. It's obviously that not all escorts are included. My take is that it is only a handful of atypical escorts that are as big as light cruisers.

The main reason for that assumption is that the Imperial Navy needs its combat vessels to average as big as possible because even assuming that every single one of them are 20,000T and up, it still only accounts for half the canonical naval budget. You need to assume that the maintenance costs are twice the 10% of original cost that TCS talks about. If you include piddling 5000T escorts in the number, let alone 3000T destroyers, the fleet size goes from being hard to believe to being really, really hard to believe.


Hans
 
Actually, because it's explicit canon, it IS correct unless contradicted by other canon. That's what canon means in a game context.

And it a) is contradicted by other canon, and b) can be reconciled by making the simple assumption that it talks of the Imperial Navy in 1120.

Admittedly I'm handicapped by not having FSotSI, so I don't know the exact wording of the passage(s) that talks of squadrons.


Hans
 
No, because the term 'combat vessel' is defined in the same passage that says a sector has about 1000 of them.

"Each sector of the Imperium theoretically has a group of fleets numbering about 1000 ships. This number includes combat vessels such as cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts; it does not include auxiliaries, support ships, and scouts." [RbS:27]​
The only real wiggle room there is what escorts are included in the 'some escorts'. It's obviously that not all escorts are included. My take is that it is only a handful of atypical escorts that are as big as light cruisers.

The main reason for that assumption is that the Imperial Navy needs its combat vessels to average as big as possible because even assuming that every single one of them are 20,000T and up, it still only accounts for half the canonical naval budget. You need to assume that the maintenance costs are twice the 10% of original cost that TCS talks about. If you include piddling 5000T escorts in the number, let alone 3000T destroyers, the fleet size goes from being hard to believe to being really, really hard to believe.

Hans

Canon being canon, I'm flexible. So be it.

Curious though; what is a gazelle other than broken? Surely not figured into the Fleet "1000"?
 
Actually, because it's explicit canon, it IS correct unless contradicted by other canon. That's what canon means in a game context.

He means the canon has questionable logic. Which means new canon could be put in place. Like how can we have TL 7 Depots.
 
He means the canon has questionable logic. Which means new canon could be put in place. Like how can we have TL 7 Depots.

Yes, that's the other way canon can be not right: If it's self-contradictory.

Remember... (alltogether now!)... It...

CHORUS: "IT ALSO HAS TO MAKE SENSE!!" :p


Hans
 
Canon being canon, I'm flexible. So be it.
It's not so much about canon for its own sake. It's about crafting a self-consistent game universe.

Curious though; what is a gazelle other than broken?

I give up. What is a Gazelle other than broken?

Surely not figured into the Fleet "1000"?

Let's see, I've just implied, quite strongly, that IMO all combat vessels are of sizes 20,000T and up. A Gazelle is 300 or 400T. What do you think?

And why is a battledress like a Tree Kraken?


Hans
 
It's not so much about canon for its own sake. It's about crafting a self-consistent game universe.



I give up. What is a Gazelle other than broken?



Let's see, I've just implied, quite strongly, that IMO all combat vessels are of sizes 20,000T and up. A Gazelle is 300 or 400T. What do you think?

And why is a battledress like a Tree Kraken?


Hans

Grrrr I am HIGHLY mediated tonight and obviously not able to think clearly. You are right though, the Gazelle does deserve a punch line.:D

If I'm smart I'll just lurk tonight.
 
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