The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[aramis]

Actually, what you have is two mutually contradictory statements, both from RbS. A fleet is said to have 8-10 squadrons of 6-8 ships. You're not going to get 28,000 ships from 320 fleets that averages 63 ships. OTOH, the statement dovetails quite nicely with the 20,000 ship figure.

Those 8-10 squadrons are only crurons and batrons. each has a desron or two as well.

So we get a maximum of 320*8*10 = 25600 maximum ships of the line, and a minimum of 320*6*8= 15360 minimum.
When we get into the MT era, we have spinal-equipped desrons - which probably accounts for the discrepancy of around 8K ships... and indicates about 1/3 to 1/2 of the desrons are big enough destroyers to be ships of the line.

 

[savage]

Thanks Aramis. Didn't have the time today to check the math but that is more clear. Still 320 does not look adequate.

 

[rancke]

Those 8-10 squadrons are only crurons and batrons. each has a desron or two as well.

Destroyers are not equipped with spinals. If they were, they'd be cruisers.

There's no such thing as DesRons, according to the description of squadron types on page 28 of RgS.

There is a mention of a squadron called the 858th Escort Squadron, but that must be a CruRon with the label 'Escort Squadron' (possibly from its intended role -- some historical reason anyway), not a squadron composed of escorts.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Actually, what you have is two mutually contradictory statements, both from RbS. A fleet is said to have 8-10 squadrons of 6-8 ships. You're not going to get 28,000 ships from 320 fleets that averages 63 ships. OTOH, the statement dovetails quite nicely with the 20,000 ship figure.

Retraction time. The number of capital ships per squadron is not mentioned. Just that the upper limit per fleet is 10 (lower limit is 2). So if you have 28,000 capital ships, you could fit them into 320 fleets provided those fleets had 10 squadrons per fleet and an average squadron size of 8.75.

Note that any fleet with less that 10 squadrons would increase that average (of ships per squadron).


Hans

 

[rancke]

You are not the only one. I still do not feel I understand what ships would be in the 60th and 105th fleets. Batrons and Crusrons are okay, even Desrons, but what actual ships are being used in 1105-1116, I am still fuzzy on. What class of Battleships, cruisers and destroyers are available? All I can safely say is we are not talking Plankwells.

The information you're asking for simply does not exist in canon. Nor as far as I know in fanon, but I could easily be wrong there.

Of battleship classes we know of the Plankwells, the Kokirraks, and the Tigresses from FS and the Voroshilefs from RbS (But they are mothballed TL13 ships and wouldn't be active pre-Rebellion). There may be one or two more that I've forgotten about (wasn't there one in TCS?) but that's about it, and that's not a comprehensive list. FFW had six or eight different BatRon counters, and there must be quite a few more, especially if you assume the existence of some small production runs and obsolescent designs being phased out.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Of battleship classes we know of the Plankwells, the Kokirraks, and the Tigresses from FS and the Voroshilefs from RbS (But they are mothballed TL13 ships and wouldn't be active pre-Rebellion). There may be one or two more that I've forgotten about (wasn't there one in TCS?) but that's about it, and that's not a comprehensive list.

In one of the two Library Data Supplements from CT there is a picture of a "100,000 dton Sylea Class Battleship" that I believe also makes an appearance in artwork in several of the MT Books (it looks similar to a Victory Class Star Destroyer from Star Wars). I do not believe I have ever seen any CT/MT stats for that particular Battleship Class, though (and based on its tonnage, I am guessing it must be obsolescent). *

* - (There is a MgT ship class of the same name, but it is 200,000 dtons and of clearly different configuration).
​

 

[savage]

The information you're asking for simply does not exist in canon. Nor as far as I know in fanon, but I could easily be wrong there.

Of battleship classes we know of the Plankwells, the Kokirraks, and the Tigresses from FS and the Voroshilefs from RbS (But they are mothballed TL13 ships and wouldn't be active pre-Rebellion). There may be one or two more that I've forgotten about (wasn't there one in TCS?) but that's about it, and that's not a comprehensive list. FFW had six or eight different BatRon counters, and there must be quite a few more, especially if you assume the existence of some small production runs and obsolescent designs being phased out.


Hans

Is MgT TL CT equivalent or did they do a GT?
Plankwell in MgT and Voroshilefs in MT are TL13. I have not seen any TL12 in their products. T20 has a couple. SFotSI has a bit of everything. I suppose that I could start recreating SFotSI ships in T20/CT. Not sure how that would go over.

 

[whulorigan]

Is MgT TL CT equivalent or did they do a GT?

MgT-TL and CT/MT-TL are both comparable/same scale.

 

[rancke]

Is MgT TL CT equivalent or did they do a GT?
Plankwell in MgT and Voroshilefs in MT are TL13.

Mongoose retconned the Plankwells to TL13? What a peculiarily pointless thing to do.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Destroyers are not equipped with spinals. If they were, they'd be cruisers.

There's no such thing as DesRons, according to the description of squadron types on page 28 of RgS.

There is a mention of a squadron called the 858th Escort Squadron, but that must be a CruRon with the label 'Escort Squadron' (possibly from its intended role -- some historical reason anyway), not a squadron composed of escorts.


Hans

The term is used in Sector Fleet and in passing in MGT Solomani Rim.
And it's used on the same page, and separate from, EscortRon.

 

[rancke]

The term is used in Sector Fleet and in passing in MGT Solomani Rim.

And it's used on the same page, and separate from, EscortRon.

Ah, that explains it. As I said in an earlier post, I suspect that Sector Fleet has an agenda that makes it unreliable. It certainly appears to be utterly implausible (See post #180 of this thread for elucidation of this claim).

So what exactly does SF have to say about EscortRons and DesRons? Is there a definition or a description of either?


Hans

 

[savage]

In one of the two Library Data Supplements from CT there is a picture of a "100,000 dton Sylea Class Battleship" that I believe also makes an appearance in artwork in several of the MT Books (it looks similar to a Victory Class Star Destroyer from Star Wars). I do not believe I have ever seen any CT/MT stats for that particular Battleship Class, though (and based on its tonnage, I am guessing it must be obsolescent). *

* - (There is a MgT ship class of the same name, but it is 200,000 dtons and of clearly different configuration).
​

TNE has a sylea at 200kdt in Battle Rider I believe.
Thanks for TL info.

 

[aramis]

Ah, that explains it. As I said in an earlier post, I suspect that Sector Fleet has an agenda that makes it unreliable. It certainly appears to be utterly implausible (See post #180 of this thread for elucidation of this claim).

So what exactly does SF have to say about EscortRons and DesRons? Is there a definition or a description of either?


Hans

3-5 destroyers are shown.

But all the squadrons are shown as 3-7 ships of type in size. A distinction is made between Desrons (fleet destroyers, 3KTd) and Escort Desrons (escort destroyers, 1KTd), and Patrol Escorts (300-400Td). It has a IY 1105 date.

 

[savage]

Mongoose retconned the Plankwells to TL13? What a peculiarily pointless thing to do.


Hans

They have it backwards IMO. However, they did do it. Could be a typo. Is there an Errata?


Yes Sector Fleet has an agenda. This is all a takeoff on discussions on COTI in the creation of T20:Grand Fleet(?) or COTI discussions. Re-written for MgT.

 

[Vladika]

There's no such thing as DesRons, according to the description of squadron types on page 28 of RgS.

Hans

RgS or no RgS why wouldn't there be DesRons? Destroyers would be grouped if for no other reason than administrative and logistical reasons.

Tactically they would fight in multiples too, if for no other reason than their apparent "weakness".

 

[rancke]

RgS or no RgS why wouldn't there be DesRons? Destroyers would be grouped if for no other reason than administrative and logistical reasons.

As for why no DesRons, destroyers appear to be a sub-group of escorts. The three examples we have¹ are two 1000T destroyer escorts and one 3000T destroyer. So destroyers could simply be escorts in a certain tonnage range. At any rate, they're some sort of escorts. It's more of a puzzle why there are no Escort Squadrons, especially since escorts are one of the five broad types of ship defined in FS (scouts, escorts, cruisers, carriers, and battleships). The types of squadrons are introduced in RgS (p. 28) and are BatRons, CruRons, TankRons, and <assaultRons.

¹ Outside Sector Fleet, which I don't have.​

Tactically they would fight in multiples too, if for no other reason than their apparent "weakness".

I don't mind assuming that escorts can be grouped in separate squadrons in addition to being attached to combat squadrons (Where they're NOT counted towards the number of main ships in the squadron). Indeed, now that I think about it, FS actually states that Midu Agashaams are deployed in "over-sized squadrons of ten to twenty vessels", doesn't it?

What I oppose is counting escorts in EscRons (and elsewhere) as part of the 1,000 combat vessels per sector mentioned in RbS. To use the term suggested by Michael, combat vessels are heavy combatants; escorts are (mostly) light combatants.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

What I oppose is counting escorts in EscRons (and elsewhere) as part of the 1,000 combat vessels per sector mentioned in RbS.

I think we are in agreement on that score!

To use the term suggested by Michael, combat vessels are heavy combatants; escorts are (mostly) light combatants.
Hans

Certainly for Capital Ship battles. They are a bit of overkill for piracy suppression, etc.

1902 USS Bainbridge, a 420-ton destroyer that was the first of her class, and the first ship classified as a destroyer by the U.S. Navy

1980 USS Fletcher, a 8280-ton Spruance class destroyer

Given the disparate historic sizes I do see some much larger destroyers than 3,000dt though. I like the "not able to carry a spinal mount" philosophy.

 

[savage]

I like the "not able to carry a spinal mount" philosophy.

Yeah, the real imperial navy. It worked in WWII might as well put it in the 57th century.


As a slight confirmation, in TNE Vampire we see pictures of grouped Midu Agashaams. It mentions "the ship" was traveling with two other ships.

 

[aramis]

As for why no DesRons, destroyers appear to be a sub-group of escorts. The three examples we have¹ are two 1000T destroyer escorts and one 3000T destroyer. So destroyers could simply be escorts in a certain tonnage range. At any rate, they're some sort of escorts. It's more of a puzzle why there are no Escort Squadrons, especially since escorts are one of the five broad types of ship defined in FS (scouts, escorts, cruisers, carriers, and battleships). The types of squadrons are introduced in RgS (p. 28) and are BatRons, CruRons, TankRons, and <assaultRons.

¹ Outside Sector Fleet, which I don't have.​

I don't mind assuming that escorts can be grouped in separate squadrons in addition to being attached to combat squadrons (Where they're NOT counted towards the number of main ships in the squadron). Indeed, now that I think about it, FS actually states that Midu Agashaams are deployed in "over-sized squadrons of ten to twenty vessels", doesn't it?

What I oppose is counting escorts in EscRons (and elsewhere) as part of the 1,000 combat vessels per sector mentioned in RbS. To use the term suggested by Michael, combat vessels are heavy combatants; escorts are (mostly) light combatants.


Hans

We also have canonical 10KTd destroyers by 1116. Destroyers big enough to carry small spinals. (Not that the Escort Destroyers in FSotSI have them - instead they have paired high factor bays.)

I found some interesting information in T20's Fighting Ships...

Destroyers represent the smallest ships found on the front battle lines. They are vessels built to run interference for the larger warships and also to provide support against the smaller vessels out there while the cruisers and battleships concentrate on the big boys. The destroyer is also the largest type of military starship that most people ever see. It is usually the destroyer classes that patrol the major shipping lanes and provide escorts for larger trade convoys. If an area has seen severe piracy attacks a destroyer may turn up to investigate. They are relatively commonplace and outnumber cruisers roughly 4 to 1.

The largest destroyer in the Imperial Navy only displaces 20,000 tons and the hull sizes run all the way down to as little as 1000 tons. Due to their small size, destroyers do not mount spinal weaponry, but since their intended targets are their own size or less this is not a major disability.

Two basic types of destroyer vessels exist; Escort and Fleet.

Escort means the class is designed to provide cover and escort duties to the many merchant convoys traveling through dangerous space, in both times of war and peace. Not all Imperial trade takes place within the Imperial borders and escort vessels are sometimes assigned to larger convoys outside controlled space. Escort destroyers tend to be fairly small (1000-5000 tons) and some classes, intended for the commerce protection role, have low Jump capability. Most escorts are capable of keeping up with the Fleet standard Jump-4. Armament tends to be optimized for dealing with small vessels like corsairs and fighters.

Fleet destroyers, on the other hand, are designed to travel with the main fleet elements and tend to mount less, but more powerful weaponry than their escort cousins. Bay weapons are common, with particle accelerators being the preferred mount.

The term frigate is often applied to smaller members of the type, and some are called Destroyer Escorts due to their usual missions of providing cover and extra coverage for destroyers on missions.​

Noting that it talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk ... it only shows DF's up to 5K.

The Saberwolf is a 5KTd Fleet DF.
The Roivalk Block I is a 3KTd Escort DD; the block II is a 3KTd DF.
The Chrysanthemum is a 1KTd Escort DD
The Fer De Lance is a 1KTd Escort DD

Desron is also used in GTIW (p. 59).

 

[jec10]

TNE has a sylea at 200kdt in Battle Rider I believe.
Thanks for TL info.

Yes, there is a Sylea in Battle Rider. And the counter depicts as looking like an Imperial Star Destroyer. TL15 and rated as being between 100000 and 1000000dT.

It is the best vessel in the game FWIW.