The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[Drakon]

The information you're asking for simply does not exist in canon. Nor as far as I know in fanon, but I could easily be wrong there.

Between RbS, MgT Sector Fleet and your own work, we can come up with something. Where canon is silent, we can play. We just got to stay within the rules, and make it make sense.

Of battleship classes we know of the Plankwells, the Kokirraks, and the Tigresses from FS and the Voroshilefs from RbS (But they are mothballed TL13 ships and wouldn't be active pre-Rebellion). There may be one or two more that I've forgotten about (wasn't there one in TCS?) but that's about it, and that's not a comprehensive list. FFW had six or eight different BatRon counters, and there must be quite a few more, especially if you assume the existence of some small production runs and obsolescent designs being phased out.


Hans

This is a good start. And others have posted lists of ships, carriers, cruisers and destroyers.

I need to review how the squadrons are numbered inside a fleet.

 

[rancke]

We also have canonical 10KTd destroyers by 1116. Destroyers big enough to carry small spinals. (Not that the Escort Destroyers in FSotSI have them - instead they have paired high factor bays.)

I've already explained those away. They are the "some escorts" mentioned as included in the count of combat vessels. They are also quite rare experimental designs and amounts to very few all told. (Note: This is my handwave to explain what I regard as awkward canon, not canon).

I found some interesting information in T20's Fighting Ships...

Thank you, such quotes are very helpful as I do not have T20:Fighting Ships. (Indeed, I hadn't realized that there was a T20:FS at all).

It looks like the author didn't like some of what FS and RbS had established about the Imperial Navy and decided to ignore it. It is not surprising that the same attitude shows up in SF (since it's the same author).

My attitude is that every little bit of information added to what we already have makes just a little bit more. Anything established about the Imperial Navy that doesn't contradict other bits is welcome in my book. RbS already opened the door for escorts (or destroyers, if you insist) bigger than the maximum established by FS, so those big destroyers don't faze me. The destroyers with spinals are more of a problem, since by definition they would be cruisers. Unless one takes the phrase "large spinal weapons needed to cause serious damage to a large armored ship" to mean that there are spinal weapons too small to cause serious damage to a large armored ship. Until now I've always thought that even a Factor A spinal could cause such damage, but perhaps not; that could be the reason for ships with spinals that are nevertheless not categorized as cruisers.

Another handwave would be that this describes practices in 990 and that such practices could have changed between then and 1105. Perhaps in connection with the IN changing over from being mainly TL14 ships to being mainly TL15 ships. I suggest that most of those spinal-mounted big-ass destroyers were simply phased out.

(Sadly, the same handwave cannot be applied to SF.)

Here's another bit of explanation to reconcile some conflicting canon that I just came up with: The term 'escort' used to be used to distinguish between different roles (e.g. 'Escort Destroyer' and 'Fleet Destroyer'). At some point between 990 and 1105, some Lord High Admiral at Capital decided that "henceforth all combatant ships smaller than cruisers are to classed as escorts, regardless of their designated role". Military types being notoriously tradition-bound (they are, aren't they? ), some ship designers are still ignoring that decree when coming up with classifications for their ships. Hence the confusion in the use of 'escort' and 'destroyer'.


What TL is the Perisher Class fast dreadnaught? If it's TL15 and if it's any good, it (the class, not any of the original production run) might still be around in 1105 and be helpful to Drakon.

Desron is also used in GTIW (p. 59).

While I appreciate your willingness to consider any GT material worth quoting, I don't consider the Interstellar War setting to be authoritative when it comes to the Classic Era setting.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

This is part of the CT problem. Those are all TL15 which is why i didn't suggest them. MT FSotSI gives the opportunity to put similar designs/different TL in the appropriate starport. Lemish is TL12. It cannot support any of these vessels on a significant scale.

Hi,

Lemish is only a J4 (or 2 J2)from Depot, which would be able to repair them. As to why is Depot only TLE? This is the SUSTAINABLE TL, all the TL F stuff is brought in from elsewhere, via high security military supply ship, when the Empire falls apart and these shipments cease Depot's TL will fall to sustainable level, but all the unpaid naval staff will suddenly become members of the population....

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

I need to review how the squadrons are numbered inside a fleet.

I'd go with (for the 60th Fleet) the 6001 and 6002 Batrons, the 6003 thru 6009CruRons and the 9060 Tanker Ron, with the 8060 DesRon, 8061 and 8062 Escort Rons (one to administer the DE's and the other the smaller Escorts).

If you want lower Tech warships in your fleet T20 TA7 Fighting Ships is a good source, you have the tL14 400kt Perisher class Dreadnaught, probably reduced to Battleship status by 1105 & the TLE 200kt Diaspora Battlecruiser.
At TL12 100kt Vrysonu Missile Cruiser, 40kt Resolute Bastion Armoured Cruiser(would make a good Swordie ship in my opinion), 35kt Darmine Colonial Light Carrier and 80kt Zastreti Interdiction Cruiser (really a carrier).
Of real interest is the Sabrewolf Fleet Destroyer, at TL12 it is 5kt, but at TL13 it is only 3kt.

This indicates Imperial escort types get smaller as technology improves, whereas in our world escorts have been getting larger, in 200 years Destroyers have increased about 10 fold in size, to accommodate new weapons.

Kind Regards

David
David

 

[Dagrill]

Here's another bit of explanation to reconcile some conflicting canon that I just came up with: The term 'escort' used to be used to distinguish between different roles (e.g. 'Escort Destroyer' and 'Fleet Destroyer'). At some point between 990 and 1105, some Lord High Admiral at Capital decided that "henceforth all combatant ships smaller than cruisers are to classed as escorts, regardless of their designated role". Military types being notoriously tradition-bound (they are, aren't they? ), some ship designers are still ignoring that decree when coming up with classifications for their ships. Hence the confusion in the use of 'escort' and 'destroyer'.

What TL is the Perisher Class fast dreadnaught? If it's TL15 and if it's any good, it (the class, not any of the original production run) might still be around in 1105 and be helpful to Drakon.
Hans

Hi,

excellent explanation the smallest capital ship in TA7 is the TLE Arandol class Light Cruiser and is 17.5kt (It's T20 so I don't know if it could be retconned to HG standards).

The Perisher is TLE is 400kt J4, M4 and has 5,583 Crew and 2,000 Marines, it can carry it's own Escorts with space for 4 1kt ships. I'm sure there are still plenty of them hanging around Depot in 1105 as the early production run of 4 models where completed in 1008, presumably many more built after that date.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Is MgT TL CT equivalent or did they do a GT?
Plankwell in MgT and Voroshilefs in MT are TL13. I have not seen any TL12 in their products. T20 has a couple. SFotSI has a bit of everything. I suppose that I could start recreating SFotSI ships in T20/CT. Not sure how that would go over.

Hi,

I've checked my Mongoose FS and Plankwell's aren't TL13, some elements can be built at TL13, including the hull, (The manoeuvre drive is TL11 smaller than a normal MD), but the Electronics and Spinal Mount are all TL15. It's a neat way of improving the structure of the ship at increased cost. The design is incorrect according to their own rules as the triple Particle Beam turrets should only include a single Particle Beam.

Whatever you do don't take a TL9 to 11 Mongoose designed space ship into battle, (I feel sorry for the Gram fleet).

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Mongoose retconned the Plankwells to TL13? What a peculiarily pointless thing to do.
Hans

The idea is that different worlds can contribute to the construction, the Manoeuvre drive and Laser batteries can be constructed at a TL B worlds and shipped to the Depot. The Jump Drive is TL C, Missile Banks TL 9 and even TL5 worlds can contribute to the production of sand barrels. In the event of battle damage, a TLD starport can repair the hull.

It makes sense that without these ships in the Marches the local economies of the worlds that contribute the spares to them will suffer as a consequence, no wonder they want them back.

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

The idea is that different worlds can contribute to the construction, the Manoeuvre drive and Laser batteries can be constructed at a TL B worlds and shipped to the Depot. The Jump Drive is TL C, Missile Banks TL 9 and even TL5 worlds can contribute to the production of sand barrels. In the event of battle damage, a TLD starport can repair the hull.

This is a very radical departure from previously published information. It is also very ineffective. It's much more efficient to let the TL15 worlds build TL15 battleships and the TL13 world build TL13 transports.

But even if the idea made sense, it still doesn't justify waving a magic wand over the TL15 Plankwells and hocus pocus turning them into TL13 Plankwells. It would be far less disrupting to say that the IN had decided to switch to a new procurement strategy and that the new TL 13 Buffoon class battleship would be replacing the Plankwells (for a reduction of combat efficiency of around two thirds -- IIRC TL13 ships are about one third as effective as TL15 ships, everything else being equal¹). :nonono:

¹ Maybe that was the reason the IN built TL15 battleships in the first place? :smirk:​

It makes sense that without these ships in the Marches the local economies of the worlds that contribute the spares to them will suffer as a consequence, no wonder they want them back.

No, it does not make sense, because a) the Plankwells had already been built, so the spares would be TL15, and b) the Plankwells were rotated out of the Marches, implying that they were replaced by some other battleships.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The Perisher is TLE is 400kt J4, M4 and has 5,583 Crew and 2,000 Marines, it can carry it's own Escorts with space for 4 1kt ships. I'm sure there are still plenty of them hanging around Depot in 1105 as the early production run of 4 models where completed in 1008, presumably many more built after that date.

It's not a question of the first production run (though 1008 is puzzlingly late as the IN would have been converting to TL15 by that time), it's a question of when the last one was taken out of service for being obsolete. As a TL14 design, I don't think there would be any stationed in Corridor, though if there are any mothballed ships at Corridor Depot at all, some of them could well be Perishers.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I need to review how the squadrons are numbered inside a fleet.

The examples we have give them three-digit numbers followed by a descriptive word followed by the word Squadron. Thus one of the 16th Fleets is said to be composed of the 172nd Battle Squadron, the 231st Cruiser Squadron, and the 858th Escort Squadron.

Note that if one sticks to three-digit numbers, there's going to be an awful lot of duplicated numbers. 20,000 combat vessels will come to 2500 8-ship squadrons. With Wil's 3-7 ship squadrons it would be 4000. And if the squadrons made up of destroyers/escorts have three-digit numbers too...

You can decide for yourself how likely it is that all the squadrons we've heard about so far just happens to be among that 25-40% that have numbers below 1000.


Hans

 

[rancke]

This is part of the CT problem. Those are all TL15 which is why i didn't suggest them. MT FSotSI gives the opportunity to put similar designs/different TL in the appropriate starport. Lemish is TL12. It cannot support any of these vessels on a significant scale.

Say rather "Lemish has a population of 1.9 million. It cannot support any of these vessels on a significant scale."

Class A starports can provide maintenance for ships of any tech level. Presumably by importing and stocking TL15 spare parts. By an extension of that logic, a TL12 world with shipyards should be able to import TL15 spare parts and maintain TL15 ships, especially if it knows ahead of time what classes of TL15 ships will be coming there for maintenance.

Repairing TL15 ships may be beyond a lower-tech world's power because it can't stockpile the bigger spare parts, like complete drives and plants. The truth is probably that it would be able to repair some damages but not all and that the game rules simplified that to 'can't repair at all'.

If a couple of hundred thousands of that 1.9 million are naval personnel attached to the base and if the base has a steady stream of spare parts being delivered from Vland Sector, Lemish could well be able to support a full fleet.


Hans

 

[rancke]

As to why is Depot only TLE? This is the SUSTAINABLE TL, all the TL F stuff is brought in from elsewhere, via high security military supply ship, when the Empire falls apart and these shipments cease Depot's TL will fall to sustainable level, but all the unpaid naval staff will suddenly become members of the population....

Supposedly the naval staff IS the population. The canonical 1000 are far, far too few though. One should start at a couple of hundred thousands and work up according to how many fleets Depot is supposed to support.

And if you want a civilian population to support the naval complement (grow their food, brew their booze, provide other services), you should probably multiply that number by ten. But we don't want that, do we? We're making do with supplies carried into the system from elsewhere, right?

The sustainable TL of Depot isn't 14 any more than it is 15, since Depot doesn't have the underpinning of a technological society. No mines and especially no smelters to make the alloys that ultratech manufacture relies on. Depot may have TL15 3D printers that can make TL15 parts, but it can't make the alloys to feed into the printers. By the standard Traveller definition of TL, Depot should be TL0. However, that standard definition has never been applied to outposts in canon setting. Worlds that rely on imports for their everyday goods have traditionally always been labeled as having the TL of those import, however much that contradicted the definition.

So if Depot imports all that TL15 stuff, it would be TL 15. Not 14.


Hans

 

[savage]

Hi,

Lemish is only a J4 (or 2 J2)from Depot, which would be able to repair them. As to why is Depot only TLE? This is the SUSTAINABLE TL, all the TL F stuff is brought in from elsewhere, via high security military supply ship, when the Empire falls apart and these shipments cease Depot's TL will fall to sustainable level, but all the unpaid naval staff will suddenly become members of the population....

Regards

David

I'm not even sure where to start. So many comments today. I completely reject Depot Corridor at TLE. T5 trading cards, every Version before that shows it at TLF. Marc may be trying to demonstrate change between the 5th Frontier War and Rebellion. Or it's a mistake, no one will fix.

That being said.

Everyone,
Why is the Imperium in power? Because, it controls TL F key worlds and Depots throughout the 3I. If every base could do TL F we would not need variances. Perhaps a TL12 Naval Base, Lemish, can put in TLF parts. Why not reverse engineer them into TL D, then E, then F? I would suggest they have a access to a small amount of repair parts. That the Navy has transports for this very purpose and that Lemish is TL12, Navy and everything. But may be allowed some access to TL13.

I really need to write a sourcebook book. :rofl: No disrespect intended, but this is just the frosting on the cake. The whole purpose of the SFotSI book was to provide a similar navy to the Imperium. I have no doubt that upgrades occur. When Kinunir was a failure people on COTI we're tossing it in their campaigns. I re-engineered it after General Shipyards sold off the design. It's corporations and capitalism in a Feudal Technocracy.

Thanks Aramis for mentioning the escort quotes from T20 FS. I had forgotten to post them. A lot of that information was generated through COTI discussions, 10 years ago. And later reused in MgT.

Here is another question. Could a 1940s US Navy base repair the F35 jet fighter? o:o:o:

Like the clement sector team, I probably need a couple partners.

 

[mike wightman]

The IN has a high enough budget to have a transport fleet shipping TL15 parts to every IN base in the Imperium. Every IN base/depot should be capable of supporting the TL15 fleet.

It may even explain where a large part of the IN budget goes... :CoW:

 

[savage]

The IN has a high enough budget to have a transport fleet shipping TL15 parts to every IN base in the Imperium. Every IN base/depot should be capable of supporting the TL15 fleet.

It may even explain where a large part of the IN budget goes... :CoW:

Well said Michael. That was my point earlier. We need to figure out the 3I annual budget. With these UWPs I'd be a little worried but I have some ideas on that one.

 

[rancke]

Here is another question. Could a 1940s US Navy base repair the F35 jet fighter?

Did the 1940 USN base have a store of F35 parts? If not, the question is meaningless and the answer trivial.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Well said Michael. That was my point earlier. We need to figure out the 3I annual budget. With these UWPs I'd be a little worried but I have some ideas on that one.

First approximation:

Population: 15 trillion
Average TL: 12
Average per capita income: Cr16,000
Gross Imperium Product: TCr240,000
Average military spending of Imperial member worlds: 3%
Total military spending of Imperial member worlds: TCr7,200
Imperial cut: 30%
Imperial military budget: TCr2,160

If anyone wants to refine that by going through the lists of UWPs and calculate the GWPs of the high-population worlds (or all the worlds), be my guest.


Hans

 

[savage]

Did the 1940 USN base have a store of F35 parts? If not, the question is meaningless and the answer trivial.


Hans

Hardly. o: There is a technology skill level passing over 3 TLs much less one. Perhaps TL12 can do basic module replacement for TL13, etc.

It's not just screws and a part...seriously. Battle damage or simple maintenance during peacetime can be challenging without working on TL above your own. If they we're easy to build, we'd have em' now. Traveller plays down the TL changes and there impacts. Or in simpler terms, "TL6/7 navy electronics engineeer. Here is my Ipad. It broke, fix it." Are these people trainable, sure but you need to give them access to that TL. As we have done with China over the last 2 decades. There TL will change.

You we're right on target about Depot TL being incorrect earlier but 3d printing is not the answer.

 

[savage]

First approximation:

Population: 15 trillion
Average TL: 12
Average per capita income: Cr16,000
Gross Imperium Product: TCr240,000
Average military spending of Imperial member worlds: 3%
Total military spending of Imperial member worlds: TCr7,200
Imperial cut: 30%
Imperial military budget: TCr2,160

If anyone wants to refine that by going through the lists of UWPs and calculate the GWPs of the high-population worlds (or all the worlds), be my guest.



Hans

Sweet. Did you come up with it or find it? Awesome starting point. I'm looking at fleets someone else can UWP the budget but i really think it's a coding assignment.

 

[rancke]

Sweet. Did you come up with it or find it?

I've done it before but rather than dig through my files I did it again just now (so it's not doublechecked for errors).


Hans