The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[savage]

I thought the intent was to create a self-consistent roleplaying background.


Kaasu has a TL15 infrastructure. Depot/Corridor imports TL15 stuff. They're both TL15, but their capabilities is very much not the same.


Hans

:file_28::file_28::file_28:

It would be nice if we could meet in the middle for role playing consistency.
Have you read more than one version? How consistent are the writers.

Depot Corridor does not need to import stuff it is not McDonnalds. Re-read everything on Depots.:rofl: Or perhaps your just messing with me.

 

[savage]

So what is a Depot's building capacity? Using a real world, peacetime example (Newport News Shipbuilding for Carriers) I'd have to say a least 10% of GROSS Sector Tonnage. [This includes NNS's ability to do major overhaul concurrently with building.]

That number is too low. If it can turn around multiple fleet repairs in weeks.

 

[Vladika]

That number is too low. If it can turn around multiple fleet repairs in weeks.

Agreed. I just looked at a floor, not a ceiling.

I doubt there is a chance of ever taking over a fully functioning Depot. To many ships in port and an overabundance of crews waiting around. And bored crews means Marines. Plenty of Marines. Not to mention that Depot security isn't going to be covered by civil service or contract security.

 

[rancke]

Go to CT Book 5 HG page 25:
Missile tech starts at TL7 & increase at TL13, there's no need to build at TL15, which would be a waste of resources, so Plankwell Missile batteries were TL13, for Sandcaster's it's TL10...

Going by HG rules:

* A Factor T meson spinal is TL 15.
* TL15 power plants are half the size and cost of TL13 power plants.
* TL15 armor is half the volume of TL13 armor.
* TL15 computers have a considerable combat advantage over TL13 computers.
* TL15 50 ton missile bays are one factor better than the TL13 equivalent.
* TL15 100T repulsor bays are two factors better than their TL13 equivalents.
* The largest nuclear damper available at TL13 is 3 as opposed to 9 at TL 15.
* TL15 fuel purification plants are 60% the size of TL13 purifiers.​

There's a reason why TL15 ships are three times as effective as TL13 ships.

Admittedly, the factor-3 meson screen is available at TL13, but any naval architect that doesn't include a factor-9 meson screen if he can should be hunted down by the crews that have to sail in his deathtraps and lynched. If the Plankwell class needed a retcon, that would be the place to it.

If the IN wanted to take advantage of the turret weapons topping out in efficiency at TL13 and TL10, the obvious thing to do would be to build at TL15 and then import and install TL13 lasers and TL 10 sandcasters. Assuming, that is, that TL15 factories can't manufacture lasers and sandcasters cheaper.

if you assume a 10 ship Batron one will be undergoing it's 10 year refit at any given time, so the Marches are losing the business to Corridor

Cut and paste a bit that you actually quoted in your post:

"...the Plankwells were rotated out of the Marches, implying that they were replaced by some other battleships. " (Emphasis added)​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Have you read more than one version? How consistent are the writers.

I've read most of what's available up to T4. I don't have a photographic memory, though. If you have some description of depots that you think supports your position, do provide a quote or at least a reference.

Depot Corridor does not need to import stuff it is not McDonnalds.

Depot/Corridor is not McDonald's but it does need to import everything. Who do you imagine is digging up the ore and refining the metal and farming the food and and manufacturing the clothes? Do you know of any real world examples of navy bases where the personnel is employed for such purposes? Come to that, do you know of any shipyards like that? I sure don't.

Re-read everything on Depots.

Think about everything you've read on depots.

Or perhaps your just messing with me.

I don't mess with people.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So what is a Depot's building capacity? Using a real world, peacetime example (Newport News Shipbuilding for Carriers) I'd have to say a least 10% of GROSS Sector Tonnage. [This includes NNS's ability to do major overhaul concurrently with building.]

I think you're underestimating the GWPs of high-population worlds.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

I think you're underestimating the GWPs of high-population worlds.


Hans

In what regard? I'm thinking that a Depot could handle "at least 10% of GROSS Sector Tonnage." (Should have added for Naval Ships.)

Whether they actually do or not is another matter altogether.

 

[Drakon]

Here is another question. Could a 1940s US Navy base repair the F35 jet fighter? o:o:o:

Most RL tech manuals in the real world US navy are written to a 6th grade level. They may be boring and difficult to read through without falling asleep, but they are highly detailed, explain the principles of operations as simply as possible and provide detailed proceedures for doing any preventative maintenence and repairs. If you can read at a 6th grade level, follow orders and written proceedures to the letter, you can use the tech manual to complete repairs and maintenence.

A few particular taskes might require a special skill or technique, like welding. Skills and techniques that have evolved since the earlier tech levels may be more difficult to replicate on a lower tech world, but not insurmountably so.

Could mechanics from the 1940s repair an F35? Parts would be the biggest issue. If your 1940's mechanics have the tech manuals, and the parts, no problem. It may take longer for the first one or two, and might not be as good, purely due to lack of familiarity, but yes, I believe they could.

There is another issue that I find interesting. Manufacturing in the real world is poised to begin a new revolution, as significant as the invention of the steam engine in the 19th century. 3D printing is already changing manufacturing in the 21st century, and as the technology evolves and improves, the ability to make anything one desires becomes a whole lot easier, whether one understands what the part does, or is, or not.

Different tech levels do not differ in what physics exists. They differ in what people know. The difference between a TL F and a tech level C is not what laws of physics are available. But what laws of physics and engineering techniques are known to the PEOPLE at those tech levels.

Like the clement sector team, I probably need a couple partners.

Smiles. I might be able to offer some assistance if not immoral support.

 

[Drakon]

Class A starports on TL 5 worlds can perform annual maintenance on TL15 ships. I should hope that naval bases on TL12 worlds would be able to maintain and repair TL15 ships. That's what they get their pay for.


Hans

The Imperial Navy more likely than not educates its officers and crews to a consistent tech level. It seems to me that a naval base should be able to repair and maintain an Imperial warship to TL 15. The civilian side of the yard, under normal peacetime circumstances, not so much.

 

[Drakon]

It's not just screws and a part...seriously. Battle damage or simple maintenance during peacetime can be challenging without working on TL above your own. If they we're easy to build, we'd have em' now. Traveller plays down the TL changes and there impacts. Or in simpler terms, "TL6/7 navy electronics engineeer. Here is my Ipad. It broke, fix it." Are these people trainable, sure but you need to give them access to that TL. As we have done with China over the last 2 decades. There TL will change.

You we're right on target about Depot TL being incorrect earlier but 3d printing is not the answer.

"Giving them access to the TL" is as simply as giving them a book and a few hours. Your WW2 Naval Electronics Engineer may not know how to program your IPAD, at least not at first, but give him the tech manuals and a bit of time, he will be able to figure it out.

You know, the funny thing is, I used to be a TL 6/7 naval electronics technician, back in the 80's. Not an engineer, mind you, but still, you wouldn't really want to give an engineer a soldering iron anyway. Could I fix your Ipad? I can understand the problem and replace parts, repair wiring, solder. With sufficient information, study and motivation, yes.

 

[Vladika]

Most RL tech manuals in the real world US navy are written to a 6th grade level. They may be boring and difficult to read through without falling asleep, but they are highly detailed, explain the principles of operations as simply as possible and provide detailed proceedures for doing any preventative maintenence and repairs. If you can read at a 6th grade level, follow orders and written proceedures to the letter, you can use the tech manual to complete repairs and maintenence.

A few particular taskes might require a special skill or technique, like welding. Skills and techniques that have evolved since the earlier tech levels may be more difficult to replicate on a lower tech world, but not insurmountably so.

Could mechanics from the 1940s repair an F35? Parts would be the biggest issue. If your 1940's mechanics have the tech manuals, and the parts, no problem. It may take longer for the first one or two, and might not be as good, purely due to lack of familiarity, but yes, I believe they could.

There is another issue that I find interesting. Manufacturing in the real world is poised to begin a new revolution, as significant as the invention of the steam engine in the 19th century. 3D printing is already changing manufacturing in the 21st century, and as the technology evolves and improves, the ability to make anything one desires becomes a whole lot easier, whether one understands what the part does, or is, or not.

Different tech levels do not differ in what physics exists. They differ in what people know. The difference between a TL F and a tech level C is not what laws of physics are available. But what laws of physics and engineering techniques are known to the PEOPLE at those tech levels.

Smiles. I might be able to offer some assistance if not immoral support.

Drakon makes some compelling arguments here, at least for the TLC to TLF differential. The physics are the same. The human mind over 3000 years is substantially the same too. Ability wise, not knowledge, but ancient Romans were as intelligent as we are today, just, not as knowledgeable.

Could, after some serious study, they use the equipment needed to affect repairs? We learn these things today. We aren't born knowing anything, but we learn fast. We take computer classes and go from totally computer illiterate to proficient fairly quickly.

We learn everything we know from nothing at birth.

It is going to take awhile, and there is going to be a learning curve, but I believe, in the C-F example given that it is possible.

With the manuals, equipment, parts and time, lots of time, "could a 1940s US Navy base repair the F35 jet fighter?" Likely.

Do I want to rely on it? NO!

But in a pinch you do what has to be done. I'll never underestimate the capacity for either human ingenuity or stupidity. In times of ease stupidity seems to prevail, but ingenuity comes out in times of adversity.

 

[Drakon]

Those MT rules conflict with established setting canon - namely that IN bases can repair TL15 fleets regardless of local TL.

Looks like the DGP authors used the wording from TCS without thinking about what had already been established for the 3I setting.

Does Lemish have an IN base? If it does it can support TL15 fleets. If it doesn't it can't.

Lemish has a Naval base at its Class A starport. Lemish is also subsector capital. Weyland is owned and operated by a Lemish based corporation, has a class B starport, also with a Naval base, 300 people and produces 6 RUs.

Lemish has a Tech level of C, or 12, Weyland is TL 9

 

[Drakon]

So what is a Depot's building capacity? Using a real world, peacetime example (Newport News Shipbuilding for Carriers) I'd have to say a least 10% of GROSS Sector Tonnage. [This includes NNS's ability to do major overhaul concurrently with building.]

THis is a great question in itself. What is the yard capacity of the various ports, and how do you figure that?

BTW: Dividing Han's numbers (2,160Tcr) by 320 fleets give you6.75 TCr per fleet. Roughly.

 

[Vladika]

Depots

Depots

Populations given in the Wiki seem small.

Depot/Kerr (Massilia 0301) Classic Era (1115) B78A777-C
Uugnii/Mekee (Core 1518) Classic Era (1115) A86A422-F
Zu/Antares (Antares 2021) Classic Era (1115) B544556-C
Camh Ranh/Strand (Corridor 1511) Classic Era (1115) A686354-F
Bloddwyn/Zhemi (Daibei 0326) Classic Era (1115) A9B9520-F
Depot/Inar (Deneb 1613) Classic Era (1115) A100664-F
Depot/Vega (Solomani Rim 1911) Classic Era (1115) A00066B-F

In addition population 6 & 7 seem to small to me.

Depots serve as focuses for naval efforts, supplying a fleet's every need, providing construction and repair facilities, and producing and testing experimental ship prototypes. A depot generally occupies an entire system. Facilities, materiel, and personnel are extensive enough to repair and resupply a large fraction of the fleet at any time. A depot may be isolated from outside contact for years at a time without serious setbacks. As depots cover large parts of a system, there is no distinction between orbital and surface berthing.

In peacetime, the main function of a depot is the design and testing of ships. A large staff of naval architects (the cream of the area) and construction personnel is maintained at every depot.

In wartime, depots serve as repair and resupply centers for the fleet. In emergencies, the depot's construction yards are sometimes pressed into service for production of military ships.

Since a depot is obviously a very sensitive installation, security is tight. An extensive array of both entry and exit codes are employed to insure no unauthorized vessels enter or leave the system. Contingents of marines and system defense boats are stationed throughout the system, and are constantly ready for action.

There is usually no more than one naval depot per sector, placed in systems where they will be close enough to the expected action to be useful, but far enough back to insure that they will not be captured.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Naval_Depot

Non-Canon (Wiki)

Looking at the starports, government types etc of these depot worlds, leads one to question the validity of the data. What depot could not be a starport A? Tech level 6? They should be AxxxN67-F, where N is fairly consistant e.g. 5 or 6. Law level could be B, but uniform in any case.

 

[savage]

Drakon is right, in that we can teach lower TL worlds to elevate their TL. But do we want to. This is an empire. Also, I would assume that all of the Imperium should be TL14/15 by 1105.

Thanks for doing the link Vadika. I cannot tell you guys how many times I've done a Depot quote on COTI.
If you open your Rebellion sourcebook the same iterations are made a bit stronger.
Depots are typically more than a Norfolk Naval Base or Hawaii. I proposed on my website, ages ago, that Depot's are regional fortresses. They have supplies to survive long assaults sure but also; manufacture weaponry, make food, and train troops. They can build the whole system. One last comment, all Depots are not alike.

 

[rancke]

BTW: Dividing Han's numbers (2,160Tcr) by 320 fleets give you6.75 TCr per fleet. Roughly.

The genitive of Hans is Hans'.

The Imperial military budget is split between the Navy, the Marines, and the Army in proportions that have not been established. For convenience I usually lump the Navy and the Marines together¹ and use 10% as the Army's cut. A year or two ago someone convinced me that 15% was a better number, but I can't remember who or what his argument was (a memory like mine is a trial and a tribulation ).

The Scouts may or may not be paid out of the military budget. Nothing has been established either way.

¹ Just for convenience! I do not think that the Marines is not a fully separate organization, and no insult to past, present, or future marines is intended.​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Looking at the starports, government types etc of these depot worlds, leads one to question the validity of the data. What depot could not be a starport A? Tech level 6? They should be AxxxN67-F, where N is fairly consistant e.g. 5 or 6. Law level could be B, but uniform in any case.

A depot that doesn't do maintenance on civilian ships ought to have a Class E rating. Possibly even a Class X.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Depots

Populations given in the Wiki seem small.

Depot/Kerr (Massilia 0301) Classic Era (1115) B78A777-C
Uugnii/Mekee (Core 1518) Classic Era (1115) A86A422-F
Zu/Antares (Antares 2021) Classic Era (1115) B544556-C
Camh Ranh/Strand (Corridor 1511) Classic Era (1115) A686354-F
Bloddwyn/Zhemi (Daibei 0326) Classic Era (1115) A9B9520-F
Depot/Inar (Deneb 1613) Classic Era (1115) A100664-F
Depot/Vega (Solomani Rim 1911) Classic Era (1115) A00066B-F

In addition population 6 & 7 seem to small to me.

That does seem low. Transients versus permenent residents, retirees?

Depots serve as focuses for naval efforts, supplying a fleet's every need, providing construction and repair facilities, and producing and testing experimental ship prototypes.

This tells me that somewhere in the depot system you will have a testing range. A set of monitoring stations around the system, possibly on some sort of course a vessel will have to run through under different conditions. How do you test a jump drive, and how do you monitor those tests to work out the bugs?

In peacetime, the main function of a depot is the design and testing of ships. A large staff of naval architects (the cream of the area) and construction personnel is maintained at every depot.

The soviets used to have different ""Опытное конструкторское бюро" - Opytnoye Konstruktorskoye Buro, meaning Experimental Design Bureau" (wikipedia). These had an internal designation number but were more well known by their chief designers. Sergey Korolev had OKB-1 and developed the R-7 rocket and the Sputnik series of spacecraft. Mikoyan and Gurevich shared OKB-155 and developed the MiG line of aircraft.

The OKBs acted solely on the design and developement, with the final product being a set of plans that were shipped out to various factories. Essentially instruction packages, and technical manuals on the final finished aircraft or spacecraft that the various factories could construct from.

So, who are the chief naval architects at Corridor Depot?

 

[Vladika]

THis is a great question in itself. What is the yard capacity of the various ports, and how do you figure that?

BTW: Dividing Han's numbers (2,160Tcr) by 320 fleets give you6.75 TCr per fleet. Roughly.

That a lot of pocket change

For HG2 you can figure on .75-1.0 Mr per ton (TL15, fully decked out)

Somewhere between 6.75 million and 9 million tonnes of ships per fleet. (13.5 - 18 Tigress equivalents) Hmmmm something doesn't look right here.

But then:

8 Tigress (J3) = 4 million tonnes

48 "Cruisers" @ 55000dton (J3) = 2.64 million

1 BatRon and 6 CruRon of 8 ships each for the low figure

2 BatRon and 9 CruRon of 6 ships each for the high figure

(Forget J4 or start chopping off Armor, Agility, Screens, etc.)

Hans may very well be right.

 

[Vladika]

Depots are typically more than a Norfolk Naval Base or Hawaii.

Quite agree. I simply chose as a "scale" comparison to Earth.

I proposed on my website, ages ago, that Depot's are regional fortresses. They have supplies to survive long assaults sure but also; manufacture weaponry, make food, and train troops. They can build the whole system. One last comment, all Depots are not alike.

This is supported by the Wiki data.