The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[Drakon]

As a figurehead that may work. As an "Imperial Advisor" (whose advice the sovereign government had damn well better heed) it might work (though the powerful member worlds might not be pleased with such a precedence). But if a person appointed from outside the system has real formal power, it's a captive government.

That is actually something I wanted to explore, how much power such a figurehead has, and how that would clash with the folks who would naturally assume to be having the actual power. And exactly what "having power" means. You get to make decisions and boss people around and spend money. But you make the wrong decision, its a bad day. Even if you are figurehead, you still are responsible.

Caveat: I don't know how Marc Miller intends to retcon the relationship between Imperial nobles and member worlds. But until he does¹, I'm going with the role akin to that of an ombudsman GT:Nobles assign to Imperial high nobles. YMM, of course, V.

Nor I, and in practical fact, being governor of a tech level 12 bureaucracy probably amounts to the same thing, more fireman and fancy dinners than pouring over conservation impact reports on the latest transportation infrastructure project. At least I hope so.

IMO there's going to be a government chosen one way or another by the locals that, at the very least, is formally responsible for their own affairs. That's what not being a captive government means².

² Yes, OK, I admit it, there are scores and hundreds of low-population worlds (including a number with writeups) with ostensibly non-captive governments where the whole sovereign people notion makes very little sense or explicitly does not apply. But leaving low-population worlds aside, a million people is actually a viable independent population so to me my "don't fix it if it isn't broken" principle applies.​

The locals have picked a civil service bureaucracy as their local form of government, and seem very happy with it, based on the cultural and economic extensions. Maybe I have a misunderstanding of what that means, but it sounds like an executive branch without a legislative branch. That you would have the several different ministries (Justice, State, Defense, Treasury, Conservation, Commerce, Health, Administrative Affairs, and I don't know what all,) under a Prime Minister. The Prime Minister reports to the Governor, who in this case is also the Imperial baron.
It saves having to create another NPC.

I think that 1 million people are just on the cusp of being an independent world. I base this on my understanding of page 437 of T5.​

 

[rancke]

The locals have picked a civil service bureaucracy as their local form of government, and seem very happy with it, based on the cultural and economic extensions.

I think of civil service bureaucracies as other forms of government where the civil service has taken over running things. The Britain portrayed in Yes, Minister is my idea of a Civil Service Bureaucracy. In other words, CSB is what the Scouts call it. The locals call it a democracy or a republic or a monarchy or a meritocracy or a theocracy or whatever.

The Prime Minister reports to the Governor, who in this case is also the Imperial baron.

Yes, I'd forgotten the most common explanation for an Imperial noble as world ruler: The two hats situation. In such a case the planetary ruler hat is most likely to be hereditary, although I could see the Imperium for some historical reason giving each new elected-for-lifetime world ruler a lifetime peerage.

I think that 1 million people are just on the cusp of being an independent world.

What about 1.9 million people?

I base this on my understanding of page 437 of T5.

I don't have T5, so I can't comment on that. I tend to put the dividing line between low and medium populations (i.e. low populations almost never sovereign de facto even if sovereign de jure, medium population very often sovereign).


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

Which is the more effective option? A somewhat smaller (assuming the surplus ships do cost more. I understand the exchange rate issue, but ships deemed surplus by the Imperium or by more advanced worlds should be available at a discount) but more advanced fleet, or a larger native force?

I'm sure there is a mixture. A few highly advanced battle ships forming the core of the fleet with locally built support ships and cruisers. I would order new TL15 ships from Khukish and Kaasu (two nearby high population worlds), and also available for maintenance, plus how ever many ships needed to fill out good local fleet of local ships.

 

[Drakon]

I think of civil service bureaucracies as other forms of government where the civil service has taken over running things. The Britain portrayed in Yes, Minister is my idea of a Civil Service Bureaucracy. In other words, CSB is what the Scouts call it. The locals call it a democracy or a republic or a monarchy or a meritocracy or a theocracy or whatever.

That is EXACTLY what I am thinking as well, with the Baron ending up as equivalently the new minister. Well actually the fellow the Minister answers to.

Yes, I'd forgotten the most common explanation for an Imperial noble as world ruler: The two hats situation. In such a case the planetary ruler hat is most likely to be hereditary, although I could see the Imperium for some historical reason giving each new elected-for-lifetime world ruler a lifetime peerage.

Agreed about the hereditary part of nobility, but the baron's situation is unique, his patent is the result of a bureaucratic oversite. What happened to the former baron, is one question that needs solving.

I don't have T5, so I can't comment on that. I tend to put the dividing line between low and medium populations (i.e. low populations almost never sovereign de facto even if sovereign de jure, medium population very often sovereign).

on page 437, it has a Native Intelligent Life/Native Status chart.
Pop 1,2,3 Non-permenent commercial or scientific activity. Transients.
Pop 4,5,6 The initial steps of creating a colony. Settlers.

So somewhere between pop 6 and 7, yes. And as the population grows, being the baron will mean less and less. But it ain't gonna if the Vargr bomb the snot out of us.

 

[rancke]

Agreed about the hereditary part of nobility, but the baron's situation is unique, his patent is the result of a bureaucratic oversite.

Who says what now?!?

How can an Imperial high noble patent be the result of an oversight? And what sort of oversight do you mean? The Imperial bureaucracy has overlooked the existence of the baron or there's an Imperial bureaucrat whose job is to keep an eye on the baron?!?

on page 437, it has a Native Intelligent Life/Native Status chart.
Pop 1,2,3 Non-permenent commercial or scientific activity. Transients.
Pop 4,5,6 The initial steps of creating a colony. Settlers.

That might work as a generic rule, but in the Third Imperium setting there are plenty of pop 4, 5, and 6 worlds that would have been around for centuries. The Imperium is over 1000 years old. Aramis/Aramis had a Marchioness appointed by Arbellatra 500 years ago and it has a population of 700,000 in 1107.

In any case, a colony would be designed to be run by its members even if the Imperium was sponsoring it.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Your actual bottleneck may be suitable and qualified personnel to handle high tech equipment; locating, recruiting, training, paying and retention thereof.

 

[Drakon]

Who says what now?!?

How can an Imperial high noble patent be the result of an oversight? And what sort of oversight do you mean? The Imperial bureaucracy has overlooked the existence of the baron or there's an Imperial bureaucrat whose job is to keep an eye on the baron?!?

Obviously I misspoke. The rationale for this particular appointment is not readily apparent. I am sure the Emperor knows what he was doing.

In any case, a colony would be designed to be run by its members even if the Imperium was sponsoring it.


Hans

Well the government is staffed by Lemishi, and frankly besides Imperial high law, what else do you really need as a regulatory structure?

 

[LeperColony]

I'm sure there is a mixture. A few highly advanced battle ships forming the core of the fleet with locally built support ships and cruisers. I would order new TL15 ships from Khukish and Kaasu (two nearby high population worlds), and also available for maintenance, plus how ever many ships needed to fill out good local fleet of local ships.

If I recall correctly, in Survival Margin it indicates that Lucan withdraws the front line fleets, to use against Dulinor. That leaves responsibility for defense with the Reserve fleets and Colonial forces.

If the Reserve fleets are doubled, that makes 16 (20 if the Fast Reaction fleets are also matched, though that seems unlikely), and if they aren't, that makes eight. Eight Reserve fleets may still be a match for the Vargr, but at least it isn't as absurd as 20 Imperial fleets being defeated.

 

[rancke]

Obviously I misspoke. The rationale for this particular appointment is not readily apparent. I am sure the Emperor knows what he was doing.

I got your meta-game explanation. Thanks for explaining.

Well the government is staffed by Lemishi, and frankly besides Imperial high law, what else do you really need as a regulatory structure?

One that doesn't violate basic Imperial law would be nice.

"The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the rule of law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial law." [Warrant of Restoration, Article 1]​

Mind you, I'm not saying the Imperium can't violate its own laws if it wants to. I just think it would provide some sort of legal fig leaf to cover up the Emperor's lack of clothes, to mix a couple of metaphors. It's not the Duchess of Mora who rules over Mora, it's the Matriarch of Mora. Who just happens to inhabit the same body, but are presumably two different legal entities. As a player I wouldn't just accept such a situation but expect some sort of in-game explanation.

But as I said before, YMMV. It's your TU and your decision.


Hans

 

[savage]

If I recall correctly, in Survival Margin it indicates that Lucan withdraws the front line fleets, to use against Dulinor. That leaves the responsibility for defense with the Reserve fleets and Colonial forces.

If the Reserve fleets are doubled, that makes 16 (20 if the Fast Reaction fleets are also matched, though that seems unlikely), and if they aren't, that makes eight. Eight Reserve fleets may still be a match for the Vargr, but at least it isn't as absurd as 20 Imperial fleets being defeated.

Yes. But they are not well organized. The Duke steps in to organize a second defense initiative at Kaasu. To me this indicates a frenzy, the forces we're overrun. Those border lines blank parsecs need defending/monitoring within at least a several parsec range of the border. And let's try to assume it's 3d at some level.

 

[tjoneslo]

If I recall correctly, in Survival Margin it indicates that Lucan withdraws the front line fleets, to use against Dulinor. That leaves responsibility for defense with the Reserve fleets and Colonial forces.

If the Reserve fleets are doubled, that makes 16 (20 if the Fast Reaction fleets are also matched, though that seems unlikely), and if they aren't, that makes eight. Eight Reserve fleets may still be a match for the Vargr, but at least it isn't as absurd as 20 Imperial fleets being defeated.

The problem is Corridor doesn't have enough system to support 16 reserve fleets. The Narrows and Lemish subsectors are already half overrun by Vargr. Uantil subsector has four worlds, none with a class A port. And Naadi subsector has a total of 8 million people. I can see Corridor having 20 Imperial fleets because they can be funded and supplied from the outside. But on purely local terms, Corridor can support 4 to 6 fleets.

Not only does Lucan pull all the fleets from corridor, but the Archduke Norris does as well. His problem (he thinks) is the Zhodani. Plus the Archduke of Vland, in declaring his independence from the Rebellion may well try to abscond with one or more of the Corridor fleets. Both as protection from the fighting in the core and from the Vargr. Is there anyone in the Corridor sector fleet chain of command who is going to tell all of these three no?

 

[Dagrill]

d'Agrillac, This free, html website is 12 years old. Geez. I do hope your comment is about the site itself. This was 5 years before you joined COTI.
No not selling the website information it was put together strictly for my campaign and available for free. I stopped work on it when T20 began to slide thanks to MgT and Hunter's health.
However, I did a large number of T20 ships which many people used since Hunter was not producing a dedicated starship book for 1-2 years. What you may have misunderstood is my recent inquiry. I asked Marc if there was interest in more detailed books on Corridor, Vargr space and Depots. The website represents a portion of what I developed.

Sorry, it was about the site, but I am interested in the information and I did misunderstand, my apologies

Kind Regards

David

 

[LeperColony]

The problem is Corridor doesn't have enough system to support 16 reserve fleets. The Narrows and Lemish subsectors are already half overrun by Vargr. Uantil subsector has four worlds, none with a class A port. And Naadi subsector has a total of 8 million people. I can see Corridor having 20 Imperial fleets because they can be funded and supplied from the outside. But on purely local terms, Corridor can support 4 to 6 fleets.

Reserve Fleets are also funded by the Imperium, they're just second line vessels and probably lesser crews. It's Colonial forces (or Provisional or Planetary or what have you) that are local, per FSotSI.

Not only does Lucan pull all the fleets from corridor, but the Archduke Norris does as well. His problem (he thinks) is the Zhodani. Plus the Archduke of Vland, in declaring his independence from the Rebellion may well try to abscond with one or more of the Corridor fleets. Both as protection from the fighting in the core and from the Vargr. Is there anyone in the Corridor sector fleet chain of command who is going to tell all of these three no?

Norris waits until the return of the Arrival Vengence before declaring independence, and by then things were already pretty far gone. Though, to be sure, he does assume command of the Domain much earlier, in 1116 or 1117. Even so, Corridor Fleet was taking its orders from Lucan that early on.

 

[Dagrill]

But take a world like Kukish. It has a population of 8 billion people and a TL of 15 with a trade clasification of In. That gives it a GWP of 281.6 trillion credits. That means that if its naval budget is the 3% that is average for the Imperium (and not above the average as you might expect it to be), it has a naval expenditure of 8.448 trillion credits, of which 30% goes to the Imperium¹. That means it has a military budget of 5.9 trillion credits, of which 40% goes to its army and 60% to its navy, for a final naval budget of 3.548 trillion credits. That translates to a system defense force of 35 trillion credit squadrons and a little bit over.
Hans

Hi Hans,

that's the problem I had with the Striker figures, I tried giving a 0.8x multiplier for High pop, still gives 28 TCr to spend with 25 TCr at TL15 and 3TCr on lower tech craft, I then allowed for munitions and battle damage,
but you just scrap the low tech stuff and still have your 25TCr of TL15 craft, with these figures you might only double your spend to go to a war footing and against Vargr and Ihatei you'd build smaller spaceships, maybe 5kt max?

regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

They might buy TL 13 or 14 or 15 ships. Their TL12 credits would be subject to an unfavorable exchange rate and maintnance costs are doubled for imported equipment. For a fleet composed entirely of TL15 vessels they'd be able to maintain one worth MCr4,290, roughly one third the size of the TL12 fleet. I don't think TL15 ships are three times better than TL12 ships.
Also, they'd need to export enough local goods to cover the cost of the foreign goods.
Hans

Cogently argued, totally agree

kind regards

David

 

[rancke]

The problem is Corridor doesn't have enough system to support 16 reserve fleets. The Narrows and Lemish subsectors are already half overrun by Vargr. Uantil subsector has four worlds, none with a class A port. And Naadi subsector has a total of 8 million people. I can see Corridor having 20 Imperial fleets because they can be funded and supplied from the outside. But on purely local terms, Corridor can support 4 to 6 fleets.

It would be nine subsector fleets. There are nine subsectors deemed worthy of having Imperial fleets stationed; two of the subsectors have (has?) only one regular fleet each.

We can't say for sure that Corridor can't support 16 reserve fleets because we don't know anything about their strengths.

The assumptions I would like to suggest for discussing this subject is that the reserve fleets ARE fairly insignificant (except to provide jobs and training for spare IN officers), but that the duchy navies are still there even though MT doesn't mention them at all. I say that not just because I like the notion of duchy fleets, raised and funded by the subsector dukes, and think it's a great pity that MT retconned them out of existence, but also because it makes some further assumptions about local fleet forces easier, namely that the Imperial military taxes are split evenly between the individual dukes for their local forces and the sector administration for maintaining the IN. That makes it much easier to estimate the strength of colonial forces.

And, after all, the MT material doesn't explicitly say that there are no duchy fleets, right?

Not only does Lucan pull all the fleets from corridor, but the Archduke Norris does as well. His problem (he thinks) is the Zhodani. Plus the Archduke of Vland, in declaring his independence from the Rebellion may well try to abscond with one or more of the Corridor fleets. Both as protection from the fighting in the core and from the Vargr. Is there anyone in the Corridor sector fleet chain of command who is going to tell all of these three no?

The dukes that raise and fund their duchy fleets might. They're certainly not going to keep paying for their maintenance.

Archduke Norris has no authority over Corridor's dukes; whether the archduke of Vland has depends on just how much and what kind of authority Strephon had managed to restore to them before his exit. It's perfectly possible that the sector dukes still answer directly to Capital in fleet matters. And the moment he declares the Restored Vilani Empire he loses all authority he may have had.


Hans

 

[rancke]

that's the problem I had with the Striker figures

The real problem is that billions of people are capable of supporting lots of warships. I believe the Striker figures are pretty realistic though I'm no expert in that field.

The only real fix is to reduce some of the population figures, but that has verisimilitude issues of its own. After all, we LIVE on a world with billions of inhabitants.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

The assumptions I would like to suggest for discussing this subject is that the reserve fleets ARE fairly insignificant (except to provide jobs and training for spare IN officers), but that the duchy navies are still there even though MT doesn't mention them at all.



Hans

Except in the FFW board game, the Reserve Fleets are far from insignificant. I understand that IYTU the Reserve Fleets aren't important (though IIRC their role is assumed by duchy navies), which may be more in line with CT, but if I understand FSotSI and FFW correctly, the Reserve Fleets are actually fairly robust, just not the equal of front line units.

 

[rancke]

Except in the FFW board game, the Reserve Fleets are far from insignificant. I understand that IYTU the Reserve Fleets aren't important (though IIRC their role is assumed by duchy navies), which may be more in line with CT, but if I understand FSotSI and FFW correctly, the Reserve Fleets are actually fairly robust, just not the equal of front line units.

In FFW the fleets are not existing formations; they are composed by the player from whatever squadrons are available to him. Presumably the colonial units that doesn't explicitly belong to planetary navies belong to subsector (duchy) navies, since the reserve fleets didn't exist¹ at that time.

¹ Or at least were never mentioned by as much as a syllable -- they might have been around but been too insignificant to mention. ​

FSotSI is an MT product. It's no mystery that it conforms to MT's retcon. But I was unaware of any explicit mention of reserve fleets in FSotSI. Would it be possible to quote the relevant bits if they're not too extensive?


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

In FFW the fleets are not existing formations; they are composed by the player from whatever squadrons are available to him. Presumably the colonial units that doesn't explicitly belong to planetary navies belong to subsector (duchy) navies, since the reserve fleets didn't exist¹ at that time.

¹ Or at least were never mentioned by as much as a syllable -- they might have been around but been too insignificant to mention. ​

FSotSI is an MT product. It's no mystery that it conforms to MT's retcon. But I was unaware of any explicit mention of reserve fleets in FSotSI. Would it be possible to quote the relevant bits if they're not too extensive?


Hans

Unfortunately I'm distantly separated from my Traveller materials, so someone else will have to help out, but IIRC where they discuss fleet deployment, they indicate that every subsector has a numbered Imperial fleet and a numbered Reserve fleet. I think it's on the same pages as the map that shows each subsector and its corresponding fleets.

That's also the same section that gives a total number of Imperial fleets, including the so-called Fast Reaction fleets at Capitol.

As far as CT v MT, so long as MT is still canon it overrides CT where they conflict, since it has a later publication date. In the OTU, as I understand it, the Imperial Navy basically has two separate, though inter-related skeletal structures. One based around front line "Imperial" fleets, and another on "Reserve" fleets. Alongside that system is a Colonial or Provisional defense force distinct from (subject to? Not sure the sources really discuss that) the Imperial Navy.

Regarding FFW, since as it is a CT product it mentions "Colonial" squadrons. However, the sheer number of units available and their parallel organization with the Regular units, when seen in the light of MT canon, would seem to suggest that they are "Reserve" units rather than "Colonial."