The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[rancke]

Somewhere, (GT:Nobles?) it says that Huscalers are "consider part of the Unified Armies of the Imperium, even though they are commanded and maintained by individual nobles.

Huscarles have special status. They are a noble's personal household troops and are limited in numbers according to the Emperor's whim (alongside his patent of nobility a noble receives a document giving him the right to raise so-and-so many huscarles). They also have special priviledges when acting on behalf of their noble. And they are permitted to every high noble down to barons, whereas only high dukes have interstellar governmental authority (Though presumably a duke can delegate his authority to lesser nobles). Ordinary duchy troops would not be huscarles.

It seems logical to me that if Huscarles are considered part of the imperial combined armies, they would be trained, regulated and equipped in the same manner as regular troops. It also makes sense that Ducal and colonial navies would be organized along Imperial Naval lines to improve integrations in times of crisis.

It's ducal and planetary. Both are colonial, i.e. raised and maintained locally.

It's certainly practical to train your armies and navies to Imperial standard, and no doubt many dukes and a fair number of member worlds do just that. But to allow for customizing duchies, I think it should be possible that dukes can organize their units any way they find best suited for their particular duchy. The whole point of splitting the Imperium up in fairly autonomous units is to allow for local input in organizing local affairs.

It's nice to be able to introduce the odd quirk. Someone once told me that the Danish navy, being quite small, used liutenant commanders to captain its MTBs whereas the Americans and the Brits used mere lieutenants (or some similar discrepancy). The result was that in joint operations, the Danes tended to wind up in charge of combined MTB units, no doubt to the chagrin of a number of American and British lieutenants. I haven't used that particular quirk yet, but I could see how that could be a way to distinguish a small duchy somewhere.

Another example: Vilani colonial forces probably organize their militaries and navies in the traditional Vilani way, whatever that may be.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Somewhere, (GT:Nobles?) it says that Huscalers are "consider part of the Unified Armies of the Imperium, even though they are commanded and maintained by individual nobles.

The 4518th LIR it represented in the 5FW countermix... but it isthe only identified Huscarles unit in the mix. But note: The text shows 8 Huscarles units, but only 6 huscarles counters are present, so either it's a typo, or two counters got replaced at some point during layout. If the latter, it's likely at least two more battalions, possibly two more regiments. Most of the Huscarles, however, should be included in the various worlds' defense factors. I'd expect only the Subsector Dukes' Huscarles to be mobilized off-world routinely.

 

[rancke]

The 4518th LIR it represented in the 5FW countermix... but it isthe only identified Huscarles unit in the mix. But note: The text shows 8 Huscarles units, but only 6 huscarles counters are present, so either it's a typo, or two counters got replaced at some point during layout. If the latter, it's likely at least two more battalions, possibly two more regiments. Most of the Huscarles, however, should be included in the various worlds' defense factors. I'd expect only the Subsector Dukes' Huscarles to be mobilized off-world routinely.

Agreed. Only high dukes would have huscarles units large enough to make much of a difference on the scale of a major interstellar war.

Incidentally, the Duke of Rhylanor's huscarles are not included (explicitly) in the FFW countermix, which either means they don't exist (which I beg leave to doubt) or spent the war doing nothing noteworthy, probably staying on Rhylanor with the duke (who doesn't have a counter either despite being Norris' peer).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Another example: Vilani colonial forces probably organize their militaries and navies in the traditional Vilani way, whatever that may be.

That will likely be based upon 2, 3, 4, or 5 subunits per unit.

Some real world examples that "seem" to break this:
Roman Legion: at it's height, 10 centuries. Really, 2 units of 5 or 3 units (4,3,3) Centuries each. Likewise, the Century itself was the same. Later versions were 6 centuries and up to 6 auxilia; again, in practice, these were divided into intermediate level subunits.

The 10-16 Company 19th C Field Regiment. Usually 3 or 4 subunits of 3 or 4 companies. The 16 company Regiment was nominally 4 US Battalions of 4 Companies each; Companies A, E, I, and M commanded by Majors, who doubled as battalion commanders, and then the Lt Col and Staff Major each commanding a wing of 2 such battalions. Some 10 company regiments were fielded in two "wings" of 5 companies.

Even when the official subdivision is 9-16 (usually 10, 12, 15, or 16), it breaks down to ad-hoc subunits with 3,4,or 5 of them each.

Unless Vilani psychology has been thoroughly altered at a biological level, the fundamental ability to supervise subordinates will likely remain in the same regimes as Terran. The titles may vary, and the Formal units may not be the same points, but they will be built upon the same basic principles.

 

[whulorigan]

Roman Legion: at it's height, 10 centuries. Really, 2 units of 5 or 3 units (4,3,3) Centuries each. Likewise, the Century itself was the same. Later versions were 6 centuries and up to 6 auxilia; again, in practice, these were divided into intermediate level subunits.

Are you sure about this? IIRC, at its height, the Roman Legion was composed of 10 Cohorts: Cohorts 2 thru 10 were composed of 6 Centuries each of 80-100 men, and the first Cohort was composed of 5 Centuries of Double-Strength each. (Auxilia were in addition to these numbers, usually grouped into Cohorts of 500 or 1000).

EDIT: The structure you describe above might be the general formation of a Roman Legion in the "Late" (post-Constantinian) Empire when the size of the Legion had shrunk in size to little more than a cohort of 1000-1200 men.

 

[Drakon]

Huscarles have special status. They are a noble's personal household troops and are limited in numbers according to the Emperor's whim (alongside his patent of nobility a noble receives a document giving him the right to raise so-and-so many huscarles).

Oh darn, where did I put that authorization? I have not found the table that says how many huscarles different nobles get.

It's certainly practical to train your armies and navies to Imperial standard, and no doubt many dukes and a fair number of member worlds do just that. But to allow for customizing duchies, I think it should be possible that dukes can organize their units any way they find best suited for their particular duchy. The whole point of splitting the Imperium up in fairly autonomous units is to allow for local input in organizing local affairs.

Oh sure, of course there will be some fine tuning and differences in intepretation. 1 size does not fit all. But there is also a lot of, "why re-invent the wheel?" kind of thing as well. The Imperium has been around a while and is based on older, more ancient military traditions. Some things work, some don't, and some things that organizations do, don't really matter one way or the other anyway.

I can see for some dukes, having their huscalers all but indistinguishable from the Imperium's Finest would be a point of pride. For others, when their troops are on the parade ground, or the firing line, the universe will KNOW whose troops they are.

It's nice to be able to introduce the odd quirk. Someone once told me that the Danish navy, being quite small, used liutenant commanders to captain its MTBs whereas the Americans and the Brits used mere lieutenants (or some similar discrepancy). The result was that in joint operations, the Danes tended to wind up in charge of combined MTB units, no doubt to the chagrin of a number of American and British lieutenants. I haven't used that particular quirk yet, but I could see how that could be a way to distinguish a small duchy somewhere.

Do smaller militaries suffer rank inflation?

 

[aramis]

Agreed. Only high dukes would have huscarles units large enough to make much of a difference on the scale of a major interstellar war.

Incidentally, the Duke of Rhylanor's huscarles are not included (explicitly) in the FFW countermix, which either means they don't exist (which I beg leave to doubt) or spent the war doing nothing noteworthy, probably staying on Rhylanor with the duke (who doesn't have a counter either despite being Norris' peer).


Hans

FFW is somewhat tightly constrained; Knowing the Imperial Jewell is administered out of Regina, it's got no Duke, but may justify additional huscarles for Regina. (I've always assumed such. A light regiment.)

The Duke of Villis (at Frenzie) likewise should have contributed troops.
I expect what are supposed to be their huscarles are in the mix as army troops due to a layout error.

Rhylanor is far enough back that the Huscarles might be retained.

 

[aramis]

Do smaller militaries suffer rank inflation?

Absolutely... Just look how many 3rd world nations have 4-5 general ranks, and people in each of them. Not to mention the number of Majors and colonels far outstripping regiments and battalions.

There are even some where the squad is shrunk to 4-5 men, The platoon 3 such squads, the company 2 such platoons, and the regiment 4 companies... barely a battalion by comparison, but justification for lots of officers and SNCOs. (This was the structure for some 1970's african rebel army. It had 6 generals, but no unit large enough to be truly a brigade, let alone the claimed field army implied by the 5 stars worn by the "Field Marshal"...

Note that some midling navies have, historically, done the opposite. USN "admiralty" were captains of the first rank with Commodore's stars and positional authority over their Fleet's squadrons' commodores. And the Commandant was even, orginally, just such a commodore. Despite it being, at the time, one of the largest "second rate" navies.

As for legions: brain cramp, couldn't think of the term Cohort, and brain filled in Century instead. The principle is still the same. The century also broke down into two or three subunits. And when needed, the squad (I forget the term) as well.

 

[whulorigan]

. . the squad (I forget the term) as well.

Probably "Contubernium " - 8 men overseen by a Decanus, that all encamped together as a unit/group.

A Cavalry unit consisted of 3 groups of 10 men (30-man Turma), commanded by a Decurion.

 

[savage]

Do we have a precedent for any Ducal forces mentioned in Traveller Canon? Other than GT: Nobles
And other than reaching for Roman history.

The Emperor's Guards are mentioned from time to time.

 

[LeperColony]

Do we have a precedent for any Ducal forces mentioned in Traveller Canon? Other than GT: Nobles
And other than reaching for Roman history.

The Emperor's Guards are mentioned from time to time.

I'm sure one of the sharper canon hounds can answer that for you, but the important thing to keep in mind is if you see a TU where nobles hold powerful military forces in their own right it's very different than if you see them primarily as Imperial administrators.

 

[aramis]

Do we have a precedent for any Ducal forces mentioned in Traveller Canon? Other than GT: Nobles
And other than reaching for Roman history.

The Emperor's Guards are mentioned from time to time.

Not "Ducal" forces. "Subsector" navy, however, yes. the GT:N author invented a lot, but that element is merely a mislabeled/relabeled item, not an invention.

MT COACC references (barely) higher level oversight of local forces, but nothing conclusive for subsector level planetary forces.

MT Rebellion Sourcebook discusses military forces...

• The Regular Squadrons are the squadrons of the Imperial Navy.
• Colonial Squadrons are raised by local worlds.
• Numbered Imperial Fleets are comprised solely of Regular Squadrons.
• The Reserve Fleets are comprised of colonial squadrons from the local subsector.
• System Fleets and Squadrons are raised by local worlds for non-imperial uses.

Reserve Fleets are, if not identical to, easily a minor minor evolution of, the CT Subsector Fleets.

MT didn't redefine Colonial Squadrons, so, since most of the subsector navy is colonial in CT, the Reserve Fleet is substantially the same beast. It is reasonable that there would be changes folowing the 5FW.

I find no MT mentions of subsector ground forces...

 

[Condottiere]

1. Later Roman Legions detached units to send to trouble spots, termed vexillatio, a sort of mixed brigade.

2. Huscarles imply personal retainers, sort of like Harrington's Armsmen. In normal circumstances, you should only find them accompanying members of the noble family that raised them and their valued employees, or carrying out a specific mission. If they are at the front, they'd be accompanying either their laird or his heir(s). Historical examples would be samurai/ninja, forty day feudal service, Saxon households, Viking thanes.

 

[rancke]

Do we have a precedent for any Ducal forces mentioned in Traveller Canon? Other than GT: Nobles

Unless I'm misremembering, the sum total of pre-GT:Nobles information about huscarles is found in the article about the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles. (And FFW).

The Emperor's Guards are mentioned from time to time.

Yes, that could be a second reference, but IIRC the notion that the Imperial Guards are seen as the Emperor's huscarles is from GT:Nobles.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Oh darn, where did I put that authorization? I have not found the table that says how many huscarles different nobles get.

"The maximum allowable size and armament is different for each unit of huscarles. Each high noble receives his own legal document authorizing him to raise household troops, and the details can vary according to the Emperor's Whim. Traditional practice gives nobles at higher levels the ability to raise more troops; a baron may be permitted to maintain only a single company, while a duke could keep an entire brigade on hand. High nobles on the Imperial frontier are likely to maintain larger huscarles units." [GT:Nobles, p. 62]

Oh sure, of course there will be some fine tuning and differences in intepretation. 1 size does not fit all. But there is also a lot of, "why re-invent the wheel?" kind of thing as well.

"That's how the pocket empire that was the core of this duchy used to do it before it joined the Imperium."

"I like my own ideas better."

"That's the traditional Vilani way."

"We're not just a cookie-cutter copy of the Imperial forces, we have our own unique cultural identity."

"This way works better for our local situation."​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Not "Ducal" forces. "Subsector" navy, however, yes. the GT:N author invented a lot, but that element is merely a mislabeled/relabeled item, not an invention.

I don't think GT:Nobles relabels them. AFAIK the use of 'duchy' instead of 'subsector' is purely a Hansism. I do that because although canon sources use subsector as interchangable with duchy, that's not actually true. Jewell is a county. Aramis is either a marquisate or split between three adjacent duchies. Lanth doesn't really have the tax base to make a credible barony, let alone an independent duchy. Five Sisters is not a duchy. District 268 is not a duchy. Pax Rulin answers to the Duke of Glisten, so presumably not a duchy either. So I'm trying to introduce the practice of distinguishing between the two. In 90%¹ of cases 'subsector' is synonymous with 'duchy'. But in some cases it's not.

¹ Guesstimate.​

MT didn't redefine Colonial Squadrons, so, since most of the subsector navy is colonial in CT, the Reserve Fleet is substantially the same beast. It is reasonable that there would be changes folowing the 5FW.

I did my best to make it clear that MT replaced subsector navies with reserve fleets. I've tried to use 'subsector navy' when talking about/quoting from CT sources and to use 'duchy navy' when talking about reconciling CT and MT by reintroducing those navies. Obviously this would involve reinterpreting 'reserve fleet' to mean something different than 'colonial subsector fleet'² since duchy navies would reclaim that role.

² Like, I don't know, actual reserve fleet perhaps?​

Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Marcher lords would have larger retinues, and should be reflected when the patent is issued. Bailiwicks located at Core may not have their maximum complements, and might be viewed with suspicion if they did.

 

[rancke]

2. Huscarles imply personal retainers, sort of like Harrington's Armsmen.

'Huscarles' in the Imperium means what the Imperium means by 'huscarles'. Which is not the same thing as what early medieval Scandinavians meant.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

MT Rebellion Sourcebook discusses military forces...

• The Regular Squadrons are the squadrons of the Imperial Navy.
• Colonial Squadrons are raised by local worlds.
• Numbered Imperial Fleets are comprised solely of Regular Squadrons.
• The Reserve Fleets are comprised of colonial squadrons from the local subsector.
• System Fleets and Squadrons are raised by local worlds for non-imperial uses.

Reserve Fleets are, if not identical to, easily a minor minor evolution of, the CT Subsector Fleets.

The Rebellion Sourcebook states that individual systems with the resources may raise their own colonial squadrons. To my mind I see the Reserve Fleet consisting of directly employed Imperial Naval Reserve ships grouped into Colonial Squadrons, along with the jump capable warships of local planetary navies, who are also grouped into Colonial Squadrons.

Thus, any squadron in a Reserve Fleet is a Colonial Squadron, but not every Colonial Squadron is necessarily raised locally or a part of the Planetary Naval system.

MT didn't redefine Colonial Squadrons, so, since most of the subsector navy is colonial in CT, the Reserve Fleet is substantially the same beast. It is reasonable that there would be changes folowing the 5FW.

MT might have changed the source of the Subsector Navy when they added the Reserve Fleet, by making it partly directly Imperial maintained and partly locally raised.

I find no MT mentions of subsector ground forces...

Well, under the terrible Unified Armies concept of GT:Ground Forces, all armies contribute directly to the central Imperial Army.

 

[aramis]

The Rebellion Sourcebook states that individual systems with the resources may raise their own colonial squadrons. To my mind I see the Reserve Fleet consisting of directly employed Imperial Naval Reserve ships grouped into Colonial Squadrons, along with the jump capable warships of local planetary navies, who are also grouped into Colonial Squadrons.

since it defines all squadrons in the numbered fleets as either colonial or regular, and makes it clear regulars are not in the reserve fleet, there is no basis for the rest of your speculation.

Local planets may be buying or even seconded IN vessels, but the squadrons are colonial, and thus belong to one or more local worlds.

Hans,

Supplement 3 says Jewell is administered as part of the Regina Subsector government. That is circa 1105. SMC says the same (p 18). Counts are not part of interstellar government in CT nor MT. (other than moot votes.)

The lack of a singular IA is implied in MT (COACC & RebSB).